Help wiring my layout eh

chester7 posted:

With that in mind what info will you need so I can help you to help me out  eh?   

 

 

How about posting your track plan with the dimensions?

RickO posted:

chester7 posted:

With that in mind what info will you need so I can help you to help me out  eh?   

 

 

How about posting your track plan with the dimensions?

Dont have a track plan down on paper yet it will all come to me as I go that usually how I roll and it turns out good. I tried designing many plans with no success so instead im taking the hands on approach.   but what im looking for is a basic idea on how to wire it  for now eh 

  Your build size, the design, and what you run, has a lot to do with the answer to "how should I wire it" as a big picture. So what can you "safely" buy?

  An easy way ro look at things,  is to break down cuircuits into systems built separately; track, turnouts, blocks/signals, lighting, accesory voltage(s), etc..

  Judging by the use of the word helix alone,  I'd plan for buying at least a 12 awg bus wire for each lenth, and 14g drops every or every other piece, or 10 ft max between drops, and assuming you're between 35-50ft max bus length. Another 12g bus, 14g drops run for turnouts/heavy aceessories too; 14 gauge and 16 or less for drops to lights/ small accessories. If you are likely to "grab commons" hastily if adding power  the future, beef the common bus feeds up a gauge now. DCS likes a star or homerun type bus circuit, you might consider wiring for it now vs blowing it off as an  "I'd never"

   You likely have to jump power over the Ross turnouts and finagle turnout motor selection and control. The systems are not identical so neither is wiring, you'll have to choose there first too.

 You had better read up on any possible helix signal issues (try BigBoy; Elliot)

That's about all I have without more specifics.

Chester7,

    I would plan on running both DCS and Legacy, set up your wiring in Blocks, no more than 13 Track Joins to each Block, run your wiring in a star type configuration if possible.  Use high quality 14 Gauge Stranded wire and test as you build. 

That should get you started.

PCRR/Dave

Hey Guys Thanks for your response

I have a build thread started here for the C&K Central.

There is a bench work drawing above on the first post the layout is about 650 sqft and I do have the helix and the rest of the layout will have ground plane material for  better signal there will also be a lower level for staging.

Do you have a sketch of what this star type wiring looks like to reference for DCS and will this also work with the Legacy system?  Anything with a sketch or drawing on how this is done would be greatly appreciated cause I dont really understand all the different terminology but I can follow a plan perfectly eh  

Chester,

   Each layout star pattern will differ, use an MTH Terminal Block for your wiring, run the wires back to the Terminal Block form all the different Blocks on your layout.

You need to purchase Barry's Book The DCS O Gauge Companion, he spells out most everything you need to know in the book, and a lot you have not even considered also.

I also recommend the OGR Video Guide to DCS, a great visual learning guide for the beginner and even for the experienced runner.  Rich Melvin did a great job with it and you can go back and re-watch everything as many times as you need too.  Great piece of video education on the DCS.  After storing your Christmas layout away for an entire year, the OGR Video Guide to DCS is a fantastic refresher course, as you rebuild your layout.

My Engineering Education for DCS and Legacy!

th

  It's more of simple guide than anything, one.feed.to.a central point, equal legs and divisions are ideal. I guess it prevents signal echos/loops, lionel isnt as picky. For your's, you are likely going to end up doing a homerun or tall Y for each line, being against a wall in a circle and all. 

So; option time; to illustrate why the end result of the build is so important...

   ...a brick per line on 4 command lines, plus two more with a conventional option? A yard brick and q less line? 2? Maybe two bricks per line with blocks dividing sections ? Two lines on throttles or one line with two blocks on two throttles?  Will section X need power when siding Y is powered?

If you haven't topped the benchwork, you may want to route some notches for wires along the top of the boards now. (or drill holes with a hole saw)

Adriatic posted:

  It's more of simple guide than anything, one.feed.to.a central point, equal legs and divisions are ideal. I guess it prevents signal echos/loops, lionel isnt as picky. For your's, you are likely going to end up doing a homerun or tall Y for each line, being against a wall in a circle and all. 

So; option time; to illustrate why the end result of the build is so important...

   ...a brick per line on 4 command lines, plus two more with a conventional option? A yard brick and q less line? 2? Maybe two bricks per line with blocks dividing sections ? Two lines on throttles or one line with two blocks on two throttles?  Will section X need power when siding Y is powered?

If you haven't topped the benchwork, you may want to route some notches for wires along the top of the boards now. (or drill holes with a hole saw)

 

Thanks for the info eh

The most im going to have on the upper level would maybe be 2 track main with sidings but im think im only going to doing a single main with sidings and industries just like the CN that goes past our house 3/4 mile away and replicate that except for the coal mine in the helix eh

The lower will be a single loop with staging / yard tracks

The helix will be a single track also 

Plywood isn't permanently in place yet that is why im asking about the basic needs for wiring a Bus or maybe a star so I can get the power supply wires in place before I put the plywood down for good then putting feeders to track won't be that bad  eh

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

Chester,

   Each layout star pattern will differ, use an MTH Terminal Block for your wiring, run the wires back to the Terminal Block form all the different Blocks on your layout.

You need to purchase Barry's Book The DCS O Gauge Companion, he spells out most everything you need to know in the book, and a lot you have not even considered also.

I also recommend the OGR Video Guide to DCS, a great visual learning guide for the beginner and even for the experienced runner.  Rich Melvin did a great job with it and you can go back and re-watch everything as many times as you need too.  Great piece of video education on the DCS.  After storing your Christmas layout away for an entire year, the OGR Video Guide to DCS is a fantastic refresher course, as you rebuild your layout.

My Engineering Education for DCS and Legacy!

th

 

 

Ill have to check that book & video out eh  Thanks Again

The first thing that you need to do is make 2 or 3 holes in all of the girders for wire pulls. A speedbore would work nicely now and whatever you prefer to chamfer the edges quickly.

This will go against the grain, but a bus system work fine with any control system.

Use 12 position terminal blocks and get some jumpers when you buy them. Purchase 500' rolls of 14awg and use that for the bus and power feeds to keep it cost effective.

Pull the wire through the holes with the roll on an axle for the entire layout.

A color will be needed for at least 8 positions or 8 colors. This should handle your needs for track power and accessory power of multiple voltages. That will leave four positions open for jumpering or special needs. Easy enough to do later under the table.

next, cut in about every 15' and strip and crimp terminal connectors on both sides and attach them to a terminal block.

When finished and you install the deck, you will only need to screw each terminal block to the deck.

prior to installing the deck, continuity tests can made to confirm good connections.

Chicken wire should be stapled to the bottom of the helix levels. This will be for an earth ground plane for the Legacy/TMMC signal separation.

You can email forum members aubv, Tom Tee, and Elliott with questions also. aubv (Brian) and Tom build layouts professionally. Elliott's builds are of the same caliber.

There's a lot of why's, how comes? and becauses, but this is like the power company's power poles and wires. It's a distribution system from the power source. What it supplies and how doesn't matter at this point.

I said against the grain to begin, because this does work for both DCS and Legacy. proven by many builds by various folks. The details can come later.

When you arrive at the build the power and control panel stage and the connect the track and accessory stage there are more tips and pros to look at for help.

That's my 2¢, which I believe answers your question.

Chester,

   There are many different engineering methods when building a DCS/Legacy layout Carl's is a good one, especially for the larger layouts.  Modify your building methods for the layout you are engineering, over head layouts need to be constructed light and engineeringly strong for longevity operation.  Also it is nice to have the over head layout blend into your Train Room, as you see in the picture below, it makes the Train room look neat and professionally built.   As Karl points out engineering planning is important.

PCRR/Dave

The Pine Creek Rail Road under construction in the new Train Room/Bar.

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

Chester,

   There are many different engineering methods when building a DCS/Legacy layout Carl's is a good one, especially for the larger layouts.  Modify your building methods for the layout you are engineering, over head layouts need to be constructed light and engineeringly strong for longevity operation.  Also it is nice to have the over head layout blend into your Train Room, as you see in the picture below, it makes the Train room look neat and professionally built.   As Karl points out engineering planning is important.

PCRR/Dave

The Pine Creek Rail Road under construction in the new Train Room/Bar.

Thanks   Ya I won't have to worry about strength I build everything way overkill but thats how we roll I wish I knew as much about this wiring as I do building and fabricating eh lol

It is certainly easier to add Legacy to a star wired layout than adding star wiring to a bus wired layout.

John H posted:

It is certainly easier to add Legacy to a star wired layout than adding star wiring to a bus wired layout.

"star wiring" is what? What one really needs is to create isolated blocks for the center rail to maintain good DCS signal. Ask Marty Fitz how his layout is wired. he runs both systems reliably.

chester7 posted:

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

Chester,

   There are many different engineering methods when building a DCS/Legacy layout Carl's is a good one, especially for the larger layouts.  Modify your building methods for the layout you are engineering, over head layouts need to be constructed light and engineeringly strong for longevity operation.  Also it is nice to have the over head layout blend into your Train Room, as you see in the picture below, it makes the Train room look neat and professionally built.   As Karl points out engineering planning is important.

PCRR/Dave

The Pine Creek Rail Road under construction in the new Train Room/Bar.

Thanks   Ya I won't have to worry about strength I build everything way overkill but thats how we roll I wish I knew as much about this wiring as I do building and fabricating eh lol

Chad, I am in the same boat! But there are great people here to help. My problem is I am so slow with wiring sometime I ask the same question over and over. I do much better with pictures and drawings then anything else!

Chad,

Here's a link to what appears to be a pretty complicated wiring setup. However, if you look at the individual sections, you'll see it's not as complicated as it looks. For example, take TIU #1 in the center. You'll see that it's being fed by a couple of Z4000s. From the TIU there are separate runs to 4 terminal blocks, 1A-1D. These then distribute power to multiple track blocks. What the diagram doesn't show is that each line from the terminal block is actually 2 wires,  1 to the outer rail and the other to the center rail.

I'm no wiring expert and don't fully understand all the DCS terminology, so my view is certainly simplistic. But from what I see int he example is that the power blocks being fed from the terminal block are fairly close together. To save on wire, one could use bus wiring to run single wires for positive and negative with feeders to the outside and center rails for each block . However, DCS prefers shorter runs for at least the center rail. Therefore, one could run a bus for the outer rails and individual (star) runs for the center rails. Some will say DCS needs individual runs (of the same length?) for both outer and center rails, but there are plenty of examples where bus wiring was used successfully for the outer rails. I think that is what Carl was referring to with Marty's layout.

There is also some conflicting advice given regarding the gauge of wire needed. Of course, most of that is because not all layouts are the same size with the same length of runs. Obviously, train sets are sold with nothing larger that 16AWG wire leads directly off the power source. We know this works okay for small layouts, but can become problematic the larger the layout gets, so larger wires need to be used for different purposes.

DoubleDAZ posted:

Chad,

Here's a link to what appears to be a pretty complicated wiring setup. However, if you look at the individual sections, you'll see it's not as complicated as it looks. For example, take TIU #1 in the center. You'll see that it's being fed by a couple of Z4000s. From the TIU there are separate runs to 4 terminal blocks, 1A-1D. These then distribute power to multiple track blocks. What the diagram doesn't show is that each line from the terminal block is actually 2 wires,  1 to the outer rail and the other to the center rail.

I'm no wiring expert and don't fully understand all the DCS terminology, so my view is certainly simplistic. But from what I see int he example is that the power blocks being fed from the terminal block are fairly close together. To save on wire, one could use bus wiring to run single wires for positive and negative with feeders to the outside and center rails for each block . However, DCS prefers shorter runs for at least the center rail. Therefore, one could run a bus for the outer rails and individual (star) runs for the center rails. Some will say DCS needs individual runs (of the same length?) for both outer and center rails, but there are plenty of examples where bus wiring was used successfully for the outer rails. I think that is what Carl was referring to with Marty's layout.

There is also some conflicting advice given regarding the gauge of wire needed. Of course, most of that is because not all layouts are the same size with the same length of runs. Obviously, train sets are sold with nothing larger that 16AWG wire leads directly off the power source. We know this works okay for small layouts, but can become problematic the larger the layout gets, so larger wires need to be used for different purposes.

Thanks Eh!!    for the info and the schematic. Ill have to take a closer look at it this week im working on more bench work today eh 

Gentlemen,

   I like to use star wiring and then add my Legacy drops to the opposite outside rail of the DCS wiring.  Long ago MartyF advised me of this wiring method and I have been using it ever sense with great success.  

Further there are many DCS layouts being run with the Bus wiring method and running great.  When I advised about using the Star method with blocks, it was because I know it work all the time.  For guys adding DCS to their older layouts, as Barry always says, try  running DCS with the existing Bus wiring 1st.  Your new DCS may work perfectly fine, especially with the newer TIU up grades.  

When constructing a new layout, especially a larger one in your home, I do recommend the Star Wiring method and Blocks, with no more than 10 -13 Track joins , using this engineering method,  your new layout will portray a Constant 10 signal level thru out the full layout.  As Marty teaches use the opposite outside rail for the Legacy drops as you build your DCS star wiring and the Legacy signal is fantastic.  

Further IMO you should always use high quality 14 gauge Stranded wire for a DCS layout, heck because I have it, I use one of the high quality 14 Gauge Stranded Black Wires for my Legacy drops also.  Not a mandatory requirement by any means.

Track is a personal preference matter.  If you are stuck on realism and a serious rivet counter, go for it with the Atlas and Ross.  Myself I am a Tin Plate kind guy who likes child like wonderland layouts.  My main Track is FasTrack with Command Control Switches, with inside RealTrax or Conventional Tubular.  Each to his own build what you most like.

Remember however when choosing track, if you run Tin Plate Trains, certain Manufacturers Track does not work well, get some advise before you build.  The other engineering reason I like FasTrack is FasTrack accommodates most all the different types of engines and rolling stock, so does Lionel Conventional Tubular.  I do have a lot of both including the old 711/072 Lionel Switches that take massive power to operate correctly.

Long ago when DCS 1st came out, before Barry had even written his 1st book, he helped me with massive advise on my bigger DCS layouts.  The 1st generation DCS was not like todays, his advice and MartyF's also, along with my own engineering knowledge and experience, made my DCS layouts work correctly.  I owe both these guys big time for their early advise, that I still use it even today, as I build my layouts.  

IMO anybody building a DCS/Legacy layout should own Barry's O Gauge Companion book, further the OGR Video Guide to DCS is to me a Great Instructional Video, visual learners this is right up your alley, especially great for beginners.

PCRR/Dave

Our Traditional Living Room Layout featuring the Lionel/Hallmark Toy Maker Santa Express, and our Christmas Moose peering around the Snow Covered Christmas tree. Not all layouts need to be DCS or Legacy, LC & LC+ are seriously Child Friendly Train Layouts, at Christmas Time. 

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year everybody!

Very well put Dave! Thank you for all the information! It's guys like you and many others that make this forum what it is!

Thanks Dave   Very Good info there  I may be asking your advice here in the future eh