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I would disagree with this premise. Williams was lucky to find a buyer for its product line while Weaver did not and MTH is now just a shell of once it once was. I would argue that Bachmann's purchase of Williams allowed the line to survive more or less intact for at least another 10 years and the current lack of production of the line is more a function of the market than anything Bachmann did to hurt the brand. The integration of former K-Line tooling into the brand was a nice bonus even if the MSRP was more in line with what we were seeing for command control locomotives from other manufacturers.
One of the hallmarks of Williams over the years was that Jerry Williams successfully navigated the transition from a reproduction manufacturer or Lionel, Marx, and Kusan tooling into a producer of decent budget priced scale locomotives. In that sense perhaps, Bachmann dropped the ball for not being as flexible as Williams. However, the overall the market for O gauge and O scale trains has been a diminishing one for several years now. It is also difficult for a company to sell a new product when nearly new or new product can be found on the secondary market for less than that new price.
I have soft spot for Williams brass. Great budget product and an awesome starting point for modelers wanting to kit bash or super detail. But like many, I didn't buy new Williams products after 2007 or so and that is part of why we are where we are with the product line.
Jonathan,
Thanks for the response to my post. I was hoping it would generate some discussion about Bachmann vs Williams.
You make some good points, but I think Bachmann's price strategy definitely hurt the Williams brand. Those of us that have been in the hobby for a while knew Williams products were available at 30-50% off MSRP, but not new people or those with less experience. No one would buy a Williams engine at the same price point as a fully featured MTH or Lionel product.
I think we can all agree that the loss of Williams is a big loss for the hobby, especially those without big budgets. Any other opinions? I'd like to hear them.
John
I think @GG1 4877 pretty much nailed it. I can't comprehend Bachmann's pricing strategy - IMO, a Bachmann engine should cost about half of their current MSRP to account for the lack of sophisticated electronics and lower level of detail. Can anyone speculate on their logic?
Another thing that probably hurt them is the blowout pricing that Trainworld was able to do - I think it created a mental baseline of what WBB items "should" cost. This isn't Bachmann's "fault", but it makes it harder to sell their product.
It also seems like it should be fairly easy for Bachmann to continue to produce existing items at a more attractive price point, since there's no need for product design and they have relationships with manufacturing facilities. It's a mystery why they don't do it.
Williams models were what got me from just running my grandpa's postwar trains into the modern realm. I agree that the Bachmann price structure was ridiculous and the sticker shock probably scared a lot of people off. The lack of command control was the nail in the coffin. With just basic TMCC I think many of their products would remain a viable part of the market, but competing with Lionchief and DCS equipped starter sets as an analog only company is tough in today's world. As a side note, Bachmann has the tooling for K-Line's excellent Bombardier commuter cars which I guess we'll never see again...
MSRP is a "suggested" price and retailers can charge above or below that depending on what the market will bear. There is a business strategy to have a MSRP higher than the expected selling price at the retail level so customers feel like they are getting a deal. This might be Bachmann's strategy; MSRP near their competitor's price but street values that make the customer leave smiling on the deal they got. I also don't think new people to the hobby are going to Bachmann's web site where they see only the MSRP. They are seeing retailer advertising or walking into a hobby shop where they see "50% below MSRP".
Would be interesting to know if Bachmann has a MAP (minimum advertised price) policy to ensure retailers are not advertising at too low a price.
@CAPPilot posted:MSRP is a "suggested" price and retailers can charge above or below that depending on what the market will bear. There is a business strategy to have a MSRP higher than the expected selling price at the retail level so customers feel like they are getting a deal. This might be Bachmann's strategy; MSRP near their competitor's price but street values that make the customer leave smiling on the deal they got. I also don't think new people to the hobby are going to Bachmann's web site where they see only the MSRP. They are seeing retailer advertising or walking into a hobby shop where they see "50% below MSRP".
Would be interesting to know if Bachmann has a MAP (minimum advertised price) policy to ensure retailers are not advertising at too low a price.
I get being able to discount off of MSRP, but when a 50% discount is needed just to be competitive, it's ridiculous and nonsensical, especially when their MSRP on other scales is in line with the competition. Good question about MAP.
@Will Ebbert posted:Williams models were what got me from just running my grandpa's postwar trains into the modern realm. I agree that the Bachmann price structure was ridiculous and the sticker shock probably scared a lot of people off. The lack of command control was the nail in the coffin. With just basic TMCC I think many of their products would remain a viable part of the market, but competing with Lionchief and DCS equipped starter sets as an analog only company is tough in today's world. As a side note, Bachmann has the tooling for K-Line's excellent Bombardier commuter cars which I guess we'll never see again...
I didn't know about the Bombardier cars - that's a real shame.
Song something discounted that heavily is kind of concerning in my opinion. And their prices were on the back cover of every issue of CTT for many years so newbies saw MSRP there.
@Will Ebbert posted:The lack of command control was the nail in the coffin. With just basic TMCC I think many of their products would remain a viable part of the market, but competing with Lionchief and DCS equipped starter sets as an analog only company is tough in today's world.
Interesting.
The Wms⇒Bachmann transition occurred while I was working my second career...LHS Trains Dept...and our staff dreaded the thought that B would rush to buy into the 'stuff-it-full-of-electronics' paradigm at the time. We took every phone call, trade show, et al opportunity to encourage B to do a quality job, BUT KEEP IT CONVENTIONAL! And so they did...to the delight of many, many of our customers.
I agree with many of the comments so far. I especially dispute that Bachmann "killed" Williams, though. Bachmann has had a 150+ year history of being in the toy business...internationally, even. Even though other mfrs...like Lionel...focused on the O market, Bachmann had not. It was a late addition to their world of Trains. Too late, as it turns out. They actually tried to resuscitate the fine Williams product line...and even add to it. But it was too late to find their own niche in the O market. Eventually they put their investments where the payoff was better.
And, in a similar manner I would suggest that this is not unlike the business story of another BIG trains producer...LIONEL!...trying to make a go of it in (
) HO! How many times? How many times did it NOT work out? And, no, they didn't "kill" anything. They found it uncompetitive in a market they were not noted for investing in...with a 'niche' no more than just they're brand name.
I believe there have been some business transactions that attempted to resuscitate some modern day S scale manufacturers' product lines, too. Those often heroic efforts have really had a steep climb to make a go of it in a scale market having a small fraction of the buying demographics at this point in hobby history.
I rather think we should thank Bachmann for giving the Williams line a few more good years, some nice new/improved products in the O scale category. And my 20+ years at the LHS saw Bachmann improve their other product lines...On30, HO, N, G, especially...to be highly competitive in the mass market.
IMHO, of course.
And FWIW.
KD
My concern with Bachmann in recent years has been their neglect of the On30 market, which they actually popularized in the U.S. some decades ago. After H. Lee Riley (the true "father" of On30 in regard to U.S. acceptance) passed, they simply pretty much let things slide in a segment of the hobby that has--today--some of the most creative modeling and modeling potential seen in any scale. They still do some On30, but not anywhere near what they did in the past.
As far as Williams is concerned, they (Bachmann) were kind of stuck between a rock and as hard place. Williams motive power is/was pretty much bullet-proof, and was much preferred by many who operate high-running-time public displays. Easy to keep running, and easy to repair if that ever was needed. It is a shame that they have apparently decided to let the line slide, but I'm sure the fact that many or most in this segment of the hobby today--especially those new to the hobby--tend to gravitate to digital command control and the associated bells and whistles.
I miss Williams. Their engines were bulletproof and pulled like an ox. I may be one of the few on the Forum who runs mostly conventional. I have the fancy stuff too but often there are problems with them. I think my Williams engines will run forever, but I worry about when my newer engines go down and there are no parts of service for them.
They should have been able to produce new road numbers for the locomotives, cabooses, and freight cars every year. More road numbers would have given operators more reason to purchase a new locomotive or freight car.
You can NOT sell what you refuse to produce.
Andrew
Am I right in understanding this to mean the O scale offerings will be eliminated entirely? Too bad, I have several locos from WBB, all good runners, easily upgraded to TMCC and despite the high MSRP they never broke the 1K price point lionel has done. Details were perhaps sparse but that to me was an acceptable trade off.
This thread may be a little more elucidative:
I always thought it would have made sense for WBB to acquire the MTH RK line when MTH largely dissolved. With the premiere stuff going to Atlas, we would have two sources providing DCS products (three with the now much downsized MTH). Besides, the WBB semi-scale Pacific from several years ago was a gem, and would have fit in perfectly with the rest of the RK line with DCS included.
Of course, whether that venture would have been a wise business decision is another matter.
As each company ceases to exist it means we have fewer choices. Kline, Weaver, Williams, all missed for what they offered. In my opinion the greatest loss was the downsizing of MTH because they brought out many models of less popular prototypes and road names that noone else has done or likely will do. Still waiting for Alco High Hood switchers, Baldwin BP20 passenger sharks, Babyface, Baldwin double-ender CNJ diesel, Whitcomb and Vulcan switchers, PRR E2C, E3B and E2B electics, etc. MTH was the most likely company to produce any of these.
They also offered a better quality/price combination IMO.
@Allan Miller posted:I'm sure the fact that many or most in this segment of the hobby today--especially those new to the hobby--tend to gravitate to digital command control and the associated bells and whistles.
I think this point nails the WBB demise more than anything else. That's the genius of Lionel's Lionchief offering and, later, the Menards offering. Simple, low cost, no frills (single chuff on steam) entry-level locomotives with remote control that meets the market's changed tastes.
The attachment from January 2023 on Mark's post says all we need to hear. For whatever reason the anticipated market didn't materialize. [Sounds familiar, doesn't it?]
With a few exceptions, those on this Forum are "true believer" aging hobbyist. My first electric train was Christmas, 1953. A Christmas highpoint was my Uncle Bill's dining room layout which then seemed huge. In retrospect it wasn't huge ... I was very small!
I still remember the Kusan Obs behind a GG1 and the original Madison car set. [My cousin, its present owner, will likely read this post, hi Lad!]
The bottom line is an emotional "love of our trains" and business decisions are very frequently divergent. The trains usually loose.
That's reality.
@Mallard4468 posted:Another thing that probably hurt them is the blowout pricing that Trainworld was able to do - I think it created a mental baseline of what WBB items "should" cost. This isn't Bachmann's "fault", but it makes it harder to sell their product.
Your assumption about how blowout deal retail works is incorrect.
Trainworld didn’t blow out its existing stock. Bachmann sold Trainworld heavily discounted product to clear out its own warehouse. That’s how retailers such as Tuesday Morning, TJ Maxx and other retailers (possibly even Menards for their online-only promotions) work. It’s no secret. It’s why Trainworld markets itself as the “closeout king.”
So Trainworld didn’t devalue Bachmann’s Williams line. Bachmann did. Haven’t you noticed that the blowout deals at Trainworld and other retailers on the forum have usually involved Bachmann and Williams items?
The blowout deals Bachmann offered is just another sign of the company’s unwillingness to engage in the O gauge market. We can talk about the shrinking O gauge market, and that wouldn’t be wrong, but the fact is that Bachmann surrendered more quickly than it had to. Kader, the parent holding company that owns Bachmann, simply wasn’t interested in small niche market sales. Kader is about mass market, which is why Bachmann remains a trainset company in HO and N scale with a more limited reach into those scales’ avid-hobbyist market.
@john in western pa posted:The attachment from January 2023 on Mark's post says all we need to hear. For whatever reason the anticipated market didn't materialize. [Sounds familiar, doesn't it?]
With a few exceptions, those on this Forum are "true believer" aging hobbyist. My first electric train was Christmas, 1953. A Christmas highpoint was my Uncle Bill's dining room layout which then seemed huge. In retrospect it wasn't huge ... I was very small!
I still remember the Kusan Obs behind a GG1 and the original Madison car set. [My cousin, its present owner, will likely read this post, hi Lad!]
The bottom line is an emotional "love of our trains" and business decisions are very frequently divergent. The trains usually loose.
That's reality.
Thanks, Cousin John, for the memories. We had two great fathers who supported both of us as only sons.
For the record, the layout was L-shaped made from 3 - 4'x4' sheets of 1/4 plywood! It had 2 loops, all tubular track with 30" curves and 2 - 022 turnouts. John and I were in heaven when we played with it for hours and never even thought anything about its size!
Yes, I still have the AMT Santa Fe observation car. Except for some Walters kits my father built in the 40s which had Lionel Trucks, that was the only non-Lionel piece in his collection! The phot below shows the car being pulled by a Menards F-unit Sample over Christmas 2021.
His last train purchase was a Williams Lackawanna "Beep" from Scranton Hobby Center for me for Christmas 1982. He passed away suddenly several days before Christmas, but the presents were wrapped under the tree for my wife and me who would be arriving home from Graduate School!
Lad
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@john in western pa posted:The bottom line is an emotional "love of our trains" and business decisions are very frequently divergent. The trains usually loose.
That's reality.
John,
I hear ya, but ...
I can't agree. If it were really this way all our beloved manufacturers would be out of business by now, not just some of them.
It's quite simple. Those that are gone didn't, and those that are struggling don't, understand the market. To a more distant observer, someone with knowledge of or training in marketing, that would indeed be a divergence.
Unfortunately, the trains don't usually lose; they only occasionally do -- that is unless you're a more passionate participant, one whose favorite ones are the ones that have disappeared. Then, to those of you in that group, the bad news is more widespread than to the rest of us.
My condolences.
Mike
Williams - like everyone else - had winners and turkeys. But they had a big problem with their freight cars. The coupler on their freight cars is 1/16" higher than standard. That's a killer for a freight car unless you're willing and able to replace the trucks. So the freight cars didn't sell. And that proved to be a drag on the business.
@Donf posted:I miss Williams. Their engines were bulletproof and pulled like an ox. I may be one of the few on the Forum who runs mostly conventional. I have the fancy stuff too but often there are problems with them. I think my Williams engines will run forever, but I worry about when my newer engines go down and there are no parts of service for them.
I, too, run conventional. I purchased a very nice WBB GP30 Great Northern earlier this year from Nickolas Smith Trains. $249 - wow! A real beauty and solid runner. I was shocked that it was still available and couldn’t resist. Love it! I also have a recent NW2 as well as SP diesel switcher - 100 Tonner or such? Also fairly recent and another very, very good runner.
@Mark V. Spadaro posted:This thread may be a little more elucidative:
Forgot about that one. As I look through my roster of power I find MTH, k line, williams, weaver, atlas next to nothing lionel. The first 4 on the list have faded away, atlas adoptoning DCS for me is a non starter. I hope what I have continues to run.
As a 2-rail scale modeler, I have 2 Bachmann 70 t and 1 44t that are now 2-rail. I wish they would offer 2-rail wheelsets, and Kadee coupler mounts for easy conversion. I think Deadrail is the way to go.
I wonder if Jerry Williams saw the writing on the wall when he decided to retire. Command control and sophisticated sound systems were taking the hobby by storm, embraced by older hobbyists as well as attracting younger people to toy trains and the hobby for a variety of reasons, sounds, options, freedom from the control panel and remote control gizmos, handhelds, phones, etc. Those of us satisfied with bullet-proof, conventional control locos with a bell and a whistle/horn were a diminishing market and the cost to keep pace would clearly erode his price advantage. Additionally going heavy into electronics could cause reliability issues caused by electronic component failure which could detract from his other selling point. True he was lucky to find a buyer and Bachmann continued the tradition for as long as feasible even introducing new product to keep the brand viable. The absence of the sophisticated command and sound systems is responsible for the drastically decreasing market share WbB trains garners resulting in the downsizing of the product line. The newer models introduce by WbB kept the line going longer than re-issues with new road numbers ever could.
Although a lot of folks have commented on the lack of remote control being a significant factor in the market headwinds Williams/Bachmann faced, don’t forget that back in 2014-2015 Bachmann came out with their O gauge Bluetooth control system and E-Z app for smartphones. Caused a bit of a stir at the time, including on the Forum, and some wondered if Bluetooth control would be adopted by the other manufacturers. I don’t know the details, but it never seemed to catch on, perhaps because Bachmann didn’t appear to develop it or market it properly, and it fell by the wayside. If Bachmann had pursued that more, who knows? For a time, they were ahead of their time.
Unfortunately, I think Williams' problems predate the Bachmann acquisition. At one time Jerry Williams was on the cutting edge of 3-Rail with things like his imported brass engines, full-scale heavyweight cars, options for QSI sounds systems etc. While deciding to stay purely conventional hurt sales, I think a big problem was the lack of new products. When was the last NEW motive power before the sale? The scale FA-1, if I recall, was on the market around 2005. By the time Bachmann acquired Williams, a lot of what they had was very dated. The real "scale" PRR heavyweights only ran for a year or two, being replaced by the 72' versions that are basically upsized Madison cars. The stamped-handrail scale diesels were in an odd place of being too big to look right with "traditional" car and too toylike to look good with the detail on contemporary scale equipment. Except for a handful of products like the E7, FA-1, BL-2, and Scale GG-1, Williams had a product line stuck in the late 90s and stopped trying follow the revolution from toy trains to highrail that it had a big hand in starting.
I like most of what Williams made, but by failing to keep up with new offerings they basically flooded the market with variations on the same equipment. It's nearly impossible for WBB to make the line profitable when, even at dealer discount pricing, old stock can be found for the vast majority of the Williams line at a fraction of what it would cost to make today with 20+ years of inflation. I recently acquired an E7 AA set with the dummy upgraded to powered trucks for $199. Deals like that can be found on the bay and at hobby shops all the time. How is WBB supposed to compete with that?
I can fill you in on a conversation that I had with a sales rep who was with the show team at the World's Greatest Hobby Show in Costa Mesa in February. My dad and I were talking on the way up to the show how they've not made any new Locomotives but the egg liner but are making tons of new Automobiles for EZ Streets.
My Dad and I are walking around and my dad goes up to this sales rep and asked them are they going to let the O Scale Line die off? He responded in a huff "No, we are still doing O Scale but we are trying to take some of the HO tooling and make new tooling in O that hasn't been done before."
I don't know how long it will go before we see a new Item from them, but some of the newer engines like the 70 Ton Switcher, 44 Ton Switcher, F59PHi, RS3s, FA ALCOs and GP30s make perfect Blunami candidates, because they've made the engines look more presentable with the detail to the engines. Yes they acquired tooling but I think the 70 ton was there own tooling based off their HO Model.
MillersburgRR, the GE 44 and 70 tonners, RS3 and GP30 are more contemporary examples of nicely detailed, scale diesels - with an upgraded sound package - developed after the Bachmann acquisition.
John
@Steam Crazy posted:MillersburgRR, the GE 44 and 70 tonners, RS3 and GP30 are more contemporary examples of nicely detailed, scale diesels - with an upgraded sound package - developed after the Bachmann acquisition.
John
I think the center cab switchers are a good example of the kind of new products that are needed to keep Williams competitive. And hopefully Bachman will bring to market the kind of things SDIV Tim mentioned in the post above yours--Bachmann has a huge wealth of models in their HO line that have never been done in 3-rail O. From big steam to smaller, fun things like scenic railway excursion cars. The 4-6-0 was a very finely engineered piece, but I think it was far too toy-like despite its scale dimensions to find a place in the modern O gauge market. The GP30 and RS3 are from K-Line tooling if I recall--happy to see it wasn't lost, but not breaking any new ground.
I think Williams COULD have a future under Bachmann if Bachmann brings its experience to bear and competes with new models MTH/Lionel/K-Line never did or did poorly. But I don't think the old Williams catalog has a chance to be very competitive, especially since Menards has filled the affordable toy train role that Williams once cornered.
@MillersburgRR posted:The 4-6-0 was a very finely engineered piece, but I think it was far too toy-like despite its scale dimensions to find a place in the modern O gauge market.
Oh, I strongly disagree. The ten-wheeler, which Bachmann produced for the Williams line, was also made for the N scale and HO scale product lines. The Southern and C&O no. 377 sold very well. Other paint schemes, not so much. Why? Because the scale-oriented crowd in each scale couldn’t accept it in schemes that were pure fantasy. (The model is based on the Southern class F-8, numbers 919-928.)
The Southern version is well sought after on the secondary market in all three scales. The problem is that Bachmann quickly idled the tooling, a familiar trend with the company. It seems Bachmann, or Kader, requires sales levels that simply are unattainable to maintain ongoing production.
That includes the GE 44-tonner, which was based on a 1990s HO model Bachmann made for its then ascendant Spectrum brand. But the O gauge 44-tonner released about seven years ago also was quickly shelved, and the model was among those Bachmann sold to retailers such as Trainworld for blowout prices. Again, a repeated and familiar scenario.
The “toy-like” element may not sell to overtly scale-oriented O gaugers, but it’s where companies, including Lionel, make their money. (MTH now has a business model for extremely limited runs from existing tooling, which at least for now is working to satisfy a niche market.)
The scale product is now priced in such a way for manufacturers to cover their costs and seek profits from a very small market. Bachmann rightly saw its place on the traditional O gauge end of the spectrum but apparently not enough to satisfy its parent holding company, Kader.
Yeah, I’ve seen that video a few times now, and sadly I agree with what he is saying. Maybe some have a point in that Williams was able to live a bit longer with the acquisition by Bachmann, and I know they added a few new things here and there, but when I read the latest Bachmann catalog, and it’s basically just the same few items they’ve been advertising for the past 5 years now, it’s kind of heartbreaking, to be honest.
I absolutely believe that the Williams brand is being wasted in general. If they want to stay conventional, that’s honestly fine with me, but they can’t bring back a few new locomotives with new road names/liveries that haven’t been done before? I’d love to see them do Metroliners again, since they are pretty hard to find on the secondary market, and Williams was one of the few manufacturers that did them in O scale at all. Also, they’re finally making some Long Island stuff for the first time ever, and so it would be awesome if they could do that in O scale too. My honest opinion about the Williams brand, and I’m sure others on the forum have said this too, is that I would love to see the toolings sold to RMT, and why them? Because they could still keep things reasonably priced (hopefully without running themselves out of business), and since they make things in so many different road names, it would be awesome if they had access to their own F7’s, Trainmasters, GG1’s, etc. and be able to put on other road names besides the typical ones we always see.
@carnerd3000 posted:Yeah, I’ve seen that video a few times now, and sadly I agree with what he is saying. Maybe some have a point in that Williams was able to live a bit longer with the acquisition by Bachmann, and I know they added a few new things here and there, but when I read the latest Bachmann catalog, and it’s basically just the same few items they’ve been advertising for the past 5 years now, it’s kind of heartbreaking, to be honest.
I absolutely believe that the Williams brand is being wasted in general. If they want to stay conventional, that’s honestly fine with me, but they can’t bring back a few new locomotives with new road names/liveries that haven’t been done before? I’d love to see them do Metroliners again, since they are pretty hard to find on the secondary market, and Williams was one of the few manufacturers that did them in O scale at all. Also, they’re finally making some Long Island stuff for the first time ever, and so it would be awesome if they could do that in O scale too. My honest opinion about the Williams brand, and I’m sure others on the forum have said this too, is that I would love to see the toolings sold to RMT, and why them? Because they could still keep things reasonably priced (hopefully without running themselves out of business), and since they make things in so many different road names, it would be awesome if they had access to their own F7’s, Trainmasters, GG1’s, etc. and be able to put on other road names besides the typical ones we always see.
I'm in if they do it.
@Steam Crazy posted:MillersburgRR, the GE 44 and 70 tonners, RS3 and GP30 are more contemporary examples of nicely detailed, scale diesels - with an upgraded sound package - developed after the Bachmann acquisition.
John
I wanted a scale 44 tonner but the MTH price tag was beyond reasonable for a small diesel. I have a WbB 44 and 70, love them both. I'm going to be putting a Lionchief board in my 44 soon.
I'd love to see more niche market stuff but I doubt it's going to happen.
I am in an industry where investment firms have bought up many smaller and mid-sized companies and businesses and ruined many of them, after increasing prices a lot. I am absolutely not a fan of consolidation where the goal is strictly return on investment with typiclaly little to no understanding of the market they just bought into. In the train business people who understood the hobby and the customers, like Weaver, Williams and Wolf are being replaced by bean-counter outfits. Not to say those guys didn't want to make a profit, but they knew model railroading and railroaders. I don't see things returning to the way they were before in the current world.
Another issue is the ever-increasing creations of better detail and electronics means prices have gone up, some would say too much. Logic would say there is a place for simpler and lower-priced items, if done right.
@Donf posted:...Logic would say there is a place for simpler and lower-priced items, if done right.
For sure, bur Menards and RMT have filled this niche in rolling stock while Williams has been sidelined by Bachmann's corporate management. The motive power is a more difficult niche to fill because the sorts of people who still run purely conventional are also likely the sorts of people who will happily buy a reliable, lightly used engine from the 90s or early 2000s which are a dime a dozen on the secondhand market. And Lionel has done very well with its Lionchief line for people who want simple command control in traditional sized, more affordable trains, and doesn't require an upfront investment in a control system.
MillersburgRR, I disagree with your generalization about "purely conventional" people. There are many of us who enjoy modern Lionel and MTH engines but don't need DCS, TMMC or Legacy to enjoy them. I have a decent collection of modern, command equipped locomotives, but I don't own or buy "reliable, lightly used engines from the 90s or early 2000s" (not that there's anything wrong about that) in lieu of a modern scale Williams engine. I own and enjoy Williams engines and I would continue to but them if they were available.
John
The bottom line to me...In 1970, premium gas cost me about 25 cents a gallon, that is a bit more than $2 today if it tracked correctly. In 1964, I bought an Athearn HO box car kit for around $4, that's about $40 today. In 1970 a 25" RCA color TV cost about $1000, that would set you back over $8 grand today, but a 50 inch DTV today is a about $300 at Walmart, and in 1970 if it was available would set you back a whopping 42 bucks. When I was making $2.99 and hour I bought a brand new Dodge D100 pickup in 1973 for $3100, and today it should cost me $23,000, but they sell for $50K and up now. Some things are close to right in price accounting for inflation, others not, and things like TV's went backwards. I believe all hobbies fall in the area where extra money not needed for everyday life can be used in that pursuit, but now, a $2500 Lionel loco today, which would cost you $200 in 1970, both then and now is a big dent in a normal persons budget and would have to be bypassed for something more affordable. The second hand market for the most part fills that bill nicely, but for the average household today, there is little money left for that detailed, latest whiz-bang engine or detailed passenger car. Some of the really low end entry sets are just too toy like, compared to Lionel sets of the 40's and 50's where the loco itself weighed more than the whole consist of the modern plastic sets. An inexpensive poorly designed train set can be a interest killer where a child finds it frustrating, and parents can't see the plus of moving up in the hobby where prices can climb exponentially. Quality product and affordable are a very hard thing to make a buck on today. While a lot of us on OGR know a good deal, what to avoid or glom on to, a newcomer has minimal knowledge and may lose interest before the desire to learn more kicks in. All hobbies are pricing themselves out of the market. I still have my Lionel set from when I was 4, but my modeling interests were in HO with Athearn when they still had motor driven rubber-band drives where the loco colors could get red shifted due to how fast they would go. The Boy Scouts derailed me into ham radio. In Amateur Radio today, there is one manufacturer that sells a rig for $18,000. My first receiver I built was a kit that cost $25 in 1964, a kingly sum for a kid with a paper route(still have that too). Today, our future pre-teen and teen hobbyists are in a magnetic field with the powerful draw of the smartphone, and the pull of video games, which are most times just too hard to break. It is no longer how many switches you have in your layout that put you on top of the heap, it is how well you do at a game. If the kid is not spending his paper route money on trains, and the family considers them just too expensive, manufacturer options will fall off just as they are doing. I have tried to build interest in trains with my grand kids, building two different Lionel layouts for 2 of them in different households, the kind that roll under their beds to store, but in both cases, the interest fell off and they don't get used. Maybe like me, when they get older, they will get back into it, hope someone is still making train stuff then. We dwindling old timers with a little bit of extra cash for our interests can't support all the companies, and as we are dying off, so are those companies.
My grandchildren are not interested either, unfortunately.
