I guess trains arn't fun toys anymore

They are, but it's a very small part, and a necessary move if they are to survive.

A company can't afford continue to cater to an unprofitable niche market, just to keep a few people happy. Any company that has tried to keep 100% of its customer base happy has failed miserably.

Scale, what is scale? He is just happy to be working.

Art

Great photo..Theres enough irony in this thread to float a boat. Realistic fantasy play versus hard core fantasy. I must be hard core...looks like a fun layout.

I couldn't agree more with the comment if your going to do new tooling get it right, as this opens the door to sales of the same item to those that care about such things as well as those that don't. 

Regarding the cab forward, I think Lionel is making the smart move - sell to both those who care about the details as well as those who want the fantasy paint scheme.  This way both groups of folks are happy with the offerings!

Jim

Hardly what I'd call all inclusive and accepting of someone elses likes. Those of us who like PW or MPC or Williams don't think we have boring trains. We like the simpler aspect of our little corner of the hobby where things don't have to "add up" or make sense. I like a well detailed scale layout as much as the next guy but such an animal is beyond my room, skills and budget so I work with what I've got and what I like. 

Jerry

I just play with my trains and don't worry about anything else.

Cappilot wrote:

I did not have toy trains as a child.

Ditto.  I didn't really get into O until this century (I'll be 63 this year).  When I get into the buying mode I want my $$$ going towards the most accurate, reliable O scale train I can afford.  I may get an engine from the 1950s if I want something to tinker with, but for my day-to-day engines I have 9 very reliable command control engines I can run.

Everybody has a different reason for being in this hobby.  I like to model the Seaboard Air Line, although most of what I have has had modifications made to it to change it from something made for PRR, UP, NYC, etc..

That's my only real complaint, they can't seem to make anything for other RRs.  How would you guys like it if they stopped making Hudsons, GG1s, and Texas Specials?

Since these are perceived as "It's only a toy" then it wouldn't make any difference to you if they started using prototypes from other RRs to make the models, right?

I think they're still fun, but one can get lost in trying to have fun with the trains and hobby.

There's something to be said for keeping it simple and using imagination to fill in the gaps like we did as children.

While I like command control with all its neat features, I still think operating trains via the levers on a ZW or Z-4000 is the greatest fun. Someday, either Lionel or MTH will have to come out with a system that will allow command control via their levered transformers. It'll involve some complexity as we'd have to program which engines are active via the levers, but it'd be a neat way to bridge the best of the old ways to the new ways of running trains.

This hobby is what you make it for yourself.  There are so many things that make up this hobby...just enjoy what ever it is that makes YOU happy.

I too have fond memories of running my first Lionel set.  It was just an oval with no switches, but I was thrilled.  But after awhile it got old just watching an engine with a few cars racing around in circles.  Even after adding Plasticville buildings and a few accessories, it just wasn't that much fun any more. 

I started reading the few books and magazines available and wished I could have something more realistic.  I switched to American Flyer because of the two rail track.  After a few years we switched to HO and got even more realistic.  Then to N gauge so we could have a bigger layout.

Fast forward to present where modern command control systems, sound, and hi-rail brought me back to O gauge 3-rail.  I could never go back, but it was very fun at the time.

Just my two cents worth.  Don't let anybody tell you how to have fun with your toy trains.  We are all brothers in this great hobby.  Model railroaders are the nicest, friendliest people you will ever meet in my opinion.  At least half the fun is sharing it with family and friends.

Art  

I play with scale toy trains.  I like them to be as accurate as possible and to have as many swinging bells and smoking features that can be packed in the shell and tender. I buy toy trains to play with them and have FUN!  I don't get caught up in this detail or that oversight. 

I have no idea how many people share my take on this hobby and I am not particularly interested in that number either.  I may or may not be the typical toy train consumer.  But, I am pretty confident that the people on this forum are NOT the typical toy train consumers. 

Chris, I'm with you.   Whatever makes you happy is fun.   Personally, because my interest are PW and conventional classics I really could care less about any new catalogs.   There is nothing there that I would have "fun" with.   But others enjoy the new offers.   Good for them.   Have fun!

Honestly, I've never personally understood the whole realism/prototypical crowd in O gauge. For me O gauge is all about the fun operating cars and accessories. If I want prototypical realism I'll stick to N scale. For starters, even then widest O gauge curves are still WAY tighter than anything you'd find in the real world. N scale lets you get a lot closer to real world curves. Also there's that whole third rail going down the middle of the tracks thing that instantly tells you you're looking at a model (though impressively there are some layouts where that's about the only way you can tell you're not looking at the real thing!) I'm always incredibly impressed by the effort the prototypical crowd puts into their work but don't personally get it, at least not in O gauge. I do hope both companies will continue to cater to both crowds. 

It's actually pretty easy to understand.  The big reasons are twofold:

1) Advantages of simpler wiring (read: no need to be concerned about reversing polarity that you have to contend with in 2-rail)

2) You can have the utmost in realism like you do with 2-rail but also retain the flexibility of running postwar and other traditional 3-rail trains without having to run them on separate layouts.   There are many (including myself) that fall into this category as I predominantly have scale equipment that I like to be as prototypical in appearance as possible yet also still have some postwar & MPC that I like to run on occasion.

Reading the varied replies here only proves the point of how diversified the 3-rail hobby actually is. As small as the overall 3-rail market is, the train companies can't survive without all of us.

I agree with those who express the sentiment of enjoying the hobby in whatever way you enjoy it. Like Bob Delbridge said, everyone has a different reason for being in the hobby. And though Bob and I may not see eye to eye on every thing, I really admire his creative abilities to modify and make the items he wants to run on his layout.

I don't agree with folks who think the hobby should be one thing only. The sad thing to me about the hobby, is when some think that their choices and their wants should be the only products that Lionel makes. There was a post in another thread where the guy said he wished Lionel would make everything to full scale. Bad idea, but a great way for Lionel to go out of business. Better idea, just buy the products that Lionel makes that suit your interests.

Same goes for when people make judgements on product lines they probably don't buy. Like when folks say starter set products are junk, when in fact they're not. Or saying everything made overseas is garbage, when in fact that's not true either.

As most know, I'm a determined non-command, 027 semi-scale operator. I seeing products made for me too. On the other hand, I know the high end, full scale products and the command technology have attracted new people to the hobby (and brought people back as some has said), so the hobby needs them too!

Many times what attracts press attention from the mainstread media, is the new technological advancements in the hobby. "Wow, look what these trains can do now! These are not like your grandfather's trains." Which is good for growth in the hobby.

But it's also good that trains similar to your grandfather's trains are still being made for those who want them, which is a larger number than some people think.

We should all be thankful for each other being in the hobby because we're still in some tough economic times and the train companies need all the customers they have. Which is why Lionel is smart enough to catalog such a diverse line up of offerings.

A third reason would be the availability of items.  Since the 3-rail niche is much larger than the 2-rail niche, it is usually easier to find 3-rail engines and cars, both new and secondhand.

I think that a lot of 3-rail scale modelers don't worry to much about the middle rail because its not about the rails its about what runs on top of the rails.

Jim

The beauty of today's hobby is that there is absolutely no reason why a person can't enjoy both the modern era High Tech stuff as well as the old reliable and simplistic pre and post war motive power.  With modern technology you can run both on your layouts. For the life of me when this topic comes up I can never understand that with this capability available why more people don't avail themselves of both options.  It seems to me that it just doesn't have to be one way.  However, If you care to enjoy them both do so; if not, don't.  As for me I get a kick out of running my "antiques" as well as today's electronic marvels just to see the technological progression which has occurred  in this hobby.

The painful-to-admit bottom line is that the customer base for Lionel "Traditional" trains is slowly dying off.  The younger generation wants all the bells and whistles and computer control - and why wouldn't they?

Unlike many here, my own father never built a train layout for me - nor did I ever have model trains as a child.  So I have no childhood memories of trains that I am trying to hang on to. 

As a grandfather with a grandson interested in trains, I only just recently got into model trains BECAUSE of the Legacy controller.  I didn't have to worry about "electrical blocks", multiple transformers and the like.  Legacy made it easy to set up and run multiple engines on the same layout without having to have a degree in electrical engineering!

It's amazing to me that Lionel continues to sell both the old-style, transformer controlled "traditional" engines AND the new, high tech Legacy engines.  It would be like Apple keeping (and supporting) both the modern Macintosh AND the old Apple IIe in it's current catalog.

I'm sure there will continue to be waning interest in the old style traditional transformer controlled engines - their days are certainly numbered.

Eventually, I imagine that the Lionel catalog will offer mostly all Legacy controlled (or remote controlled) engines - you can actually see that happening now.

Cheers

For my home, the focus is command control, scale. However, for the club modular layout I maintain an inventory of WbB engines along with fantasy sets such as Polar Express and Harry Potter. The end-game is fun; regardless if it's a $100 eBay bargain or a $2K brass model.

If you're not having fun, you need to get a different hobby!

Gilly 

Hi John:

I agree with everything you said, however, I interpreted SeattleSUP’s comments somewhat more broadly than you did. I think he was saying, and he will correct me if I am wrong, that O-Gauge by its very nature does not lend itself to scale operation, unlike N or even HO. I personally, am a hard-core Hi-Railer, and embrace, rather than deny the inherent limitations of O. My long held opinion regarding O is that regardless of what is done, from 2-rail operation to scale couplers and fixed pilots, unless you have Yankee Stadium as your train room you will not even approach scale operation, because the scenery component is always going to be out of scale, and scenery always has to be part of any scale attempt. Denying the essential DNA of O-Gauge, is to my way of thinking, not productive.

JMHO, as usual

You may be sure about that, but I'm not so sure.  Things tend to run in cycles, and even if it may appear that the whole world is going techno-nutty, you can be quite sure that there still are very large numbers of hobbyists--all scales--who are perfectly content with operating trains in a more conventional (and often more reliable and durable) way.

A hobby is an individual pursuit.  Even if a person belongs to a group or club or some sort, it still boils down to being an individual activity based on personal interests, talents, abilities, budget, etc.  THAT is the whole point of having a hobby.  Individual hobbyists are not sheep, and any attempt to herd them in any one direction is doomed to failure over the long term.

I think the thread has gotten a little off track (pun) from what I wanted to get across in my original post on page one.  I was attempting to get across the point that with all the new and varied offerings in the Lionel catalog, I appreciate that we have all those items available for us to purchase.  I enjoy running my post war trains as much as I do my Legacy diesel and steam engines.  I am having fun running all my trains and still consider them as toys and don't get serious or upset because a detail is missing or something on an engine or car does not match up to the "real" train. 

Just as an observation only, I can not see where a person involved in O gauge trains, running on 3 rail track and complaining about one thing or another can be having fun.  I respect and appreciate all aspects of our hobby including but not limited to post war, MPC, scale, non-scale, etc.  Each of these areas of O gauge trains is a personal choice and good for everyone.

We as hobbiests are so lucky today to have so many companies providing us with new scenery, buildings, track, trains, electronics, figures, etc., compared to what was available just 20 years ago.  It is wonderful and fantastic.....something to be appreciated and not complain about.

Steve, Lady and Tex

The painful-to-admit bottom line is that the customer base for Lionel "Traditional" trains is slowly dying off.  The younger generation wants all the bells and whistles and computer control - and why wouldn't they?

I don't know where you are getting your information Starhoper, but it's wrong. Jerry Calabrese said that the traditional Lionel Polar Express set is the biggest selling train set in the entire history of Lionel.

The starter sets are made in the multiple thousands, meanwhile the high end Legacy locomotives are being built to order figures. There are a lot of people buying train sets and starter related items who do not post on this train forum. From reading here, you do kind of get the impression the majority of hobby participants have gone scale and digital control.

Much of Lionel's starter set sales has to do with nostalgia. Parents I've talked to that have bought starter sets did it for the exact reason of having a toy that isn't like every electronic toy their kids have.

That said, I can see the LionChief sets becoming more popular. They offer some bells and whistles and remote control at a fraction of the cost that including the Legacy system would be. And as Lionel has said, this new LionChief system is actually cheaper for them to do, cutting both production and shipping costs versus a heavier transformer.

Decades ago, many predicted the complete extinction of the vinyl LP. Yeah, they don't sell like they used to, and yet they still continue to be made (in Britain, LP's have held a constant audience). Even Neil Young continues to issue (and re-issue) his albums on vinyl.

The Ra!i Chief Plus seems ok with me.  Engine control via its own clicker, transformer, and TMCC Conv.  With this, you can run two engines on a track on the same time  two RC locomotives. one RC and one Conv., One RC and one TMCC/L.

When I do eventually build a layout it will probably slate somewhere between "hirail" and "3RS" in terms of the look I'm going for, and I have an affitinity for scale equipment, but I do keep one 2025 steamer and when I run it it stimulates parts of my brain that running the "whiz-bang" stuff does not.  It's a different sort of good.

That said, if I ever did find that I wanted to build a "postwar" style layout, I can't imagine ever buying a new locomotive from Lionel when I can get and fix up postwar stuff so easily and cheaply.  Maybe some new traditional-sized rolling stock.. but even that I doubt I'd ever buy much of.  So frankly I don't see any real need for the Lionel of 2014 to cater to postwar/traditional operators... the best stuff is already out there.

Bottom line guys is we have a great hobby here and we can each create our own little or large railroad empire based on our own individual wants. We have the ability today to build a museum scale size layout or a toy train style layout using conventional, DCS Or

Legacy. We didn't have these options in the 50's. So let us just enjoy our trains with what we have available to us today. We all probably have smart phones and I don't think any of us are using dial up phones. Time marches on. Be happy & play with trains.

quote:

Vinyl records are now the fastest growing format of music (not counting streaming which is more of a service than a format).

Forgive me if someone else already mentioned this: Film cameras are making a comeback too.

Because the hobby is becoming a rich man's hobby?

In the 1960's even my father who was a blue collar, not even a high school diploma worker was able to afford a brand new house and 2 sets of lionel trains, 2 HO sets and a slot car set over the course of 4 years.

I think he made less than $65 a week in the 1960's

These days, I make an above average middle class income, have a new house, car etc.

But....almost $2k for a Lionel Locomotive, which many folks have at least 2?

No way....

Sure, I could withdraw that money from the bank, but at least for me...I would prefer either a $300-$400 Lionel or MTH Legacy or PS3 loco or better yet a conventional from Williams for even less and keep the fun factor of something costs more than a top of the line John Deere riding mower.

That would be like buying a  riding mower every year at least once.

I spent many years in scale railroading both in HO and On30 and got burned out and quit trains all together. Then I rediscovered my Dad's postwar Lionel O-27 set and am now back to trains and happy as ever, maybe even more so running old electric trains . Got the bells and whistle I was missing in scale trains now! Sure the turns are tighter than HO scale, but that just means more trains (and more fun) per square inch.  lol

Remember, if you want true wireless train technology, it's already been done. It's called "Clockwork."  

No one has explained to me the "Lionel" in today's young woman's line of toys:  American (made in China) Girl?  Mostly "conv.", except for a few battery powered things like a period player piano.  Families at one setting at Memorial City Mall in Houston can spend more than on a train set from MTH, L, ......

I think half the problem is that children don't have any toys of this type because the PARENTS have not exposed their children to these type of REAL toys, whether trains, construction sets, Tinker-Toys......  But this might involve parents actually having to play WITH the child, at least for a while.    I wonder how many minds have/are being hurt by not having a chance to create a world based on her/his mind and not that determined completely by a Madison Ave company... This requires thinking outside of the electronic box.

I don't think Standard O will ever replace Traditional O under the Christmas Tree. Parents with no interest in trains buy based on price for the most part. The new LionChief sets make Lionel more completive then ever and the Polar Express is still a big seller. As long as Lionel's Traditional O trains remain under the Christmas tree they will have lasting appeal. How many of us started with trains under the Christmas tree?

I don't think conventional control is going away any time soon. I don't know the numbers but I do know there are many post war trains still running and operators that love them. It did not take Lionel long to add a switch to the LionChief locomotives, they must know there is still a big demand for conventional control.

I think trains are as much fun as ever! Play with your trains your way, play with the trains you like and HAVE FUN!

Have you ever heard of Frank Ellison or John Armstrong?

Steve,

There seems to be a great many that need to re-read your post (a few times). Then maybe, just maybe the real meaning will be understood.

I enjoy my prewar trains and have no desire to cross into the "real" world. 

we're all having FUN FUN FUN!!!

the reason why some of us complain about stuff on these new trains is because when you blow 1200+on one we better get all the bells and whistles that they claim to have...But in my opinion..These trains are not worth the 1200+..maybe 500-600...To me were all getting jacked on these high cost on these trains..When MTH first hit the market ,I loved it, bought my first Ogauge railking challenger for 350.00..thought this could hurt lionel and maybe they would lower there prices to compete with MTH..Was told MTH would keep there prices low..But.Now To me MTH and lionel are in bed together..and both of there prices are way up...Even the HO's prices are up to..Wanted to get BLI PRR S2 turbine..just saw the MSRP and my jaw dropped..749.00!!..Its just to bad these trains are not built in the USA anymore..The old post and pre war stuff last along time..all was Built with pride in the USA... So To me the guys have the wrights to complain..