I am trying to identify these flat car stakes. They look like the 2411 stakes except they have a slot cut in them. The slots look as if they were cut as the stake was formed. They are chemical blackened and the slots look as it they were blackened at the same time as the rest if the stake. Does anybody know what these were used for?
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Not postwar and not flatcar stakes... handrail stanchions from MPC 8030 GP9.
Good one Rob.
A while back I was looking for some of those handrail stanchions. Have a part number and/or a source?
If I remember correctly (and I'll admit it's been a long time since I've looked this one up), I believe that MPC always used the same postwar part number of the stake to identify their "handrail support": 2411-4.
Like some other MPC parts that were made for a limited time, they can be VERY difficult to find.
TRW
Great job Rob... Your quick!
Scott
When did Lionel move to the stamped metal handrails ?
Service Supplement 1 page 20 shows the part number for the 8030/8031 as 2411-4 which is the same as the original Big Inch flatcar stake. These are readily available, but you would have to cut the notch yourself with a cut off wheel and retouch the blackening/bluing.
Dan Padova posted:When did Lionel move to the stamped metal handrails ?
They started in 1974 with the U36B. The Geeps followed in 1976 with the introduction of the painted frame NP & B&M units.
Dan Padova posted:When did Lionel move to the stamped metal handrails ?
The concept was introduced with the brand-new U-36-B in 1974.
The Geeps (GP-7/9/20) were converted in 1976.
TRW
Rob, thanks for the quick correct answer.
Charlies, now that I know what they are, l know I will never need them. If you need them, email me your address and I will send them to you. There are only five of them.
ADCX Rob posted:Dan Padova posted:When did Lionel move to the stamped metal handrails ?
They started in 1974 with the U36B. The Geeps followed in 1976 with the introduction of the painted frame NP & B&M units.
Lionel had used stamped metal handrails on its GP7/9s and the Virginia rectifier electric throughout the postwar years.
The MPC era began with a few different unique handrail configurations on its diesels before returning to the more durable stamped metal of postwar years.
Does anyone (Todd?) know why it took MPC that long to return to a proven design. Simply a matter of production costs???
Jim
The frames were stamped with the sides rolled down starting in 1970 when MPC reintroduced the Geep with the cheaper 600 series style integrated motor truck instead of the marvelous 2028-100 style motor/truck block. That left no way to incorporate railings into the stamping.
The MPC/FunDimensions metal railings are separate stampings spot welded to the rolled down frame stampings and are not as durable as their postwar counterparts.
Thanks Rob, for that information.
Jim Policastro posted:ADCX Rob posted:Dan Padova posted:When did Lionel move to the stamped metal handrails ?
They started in 1974 with the U36B. The Geeps followed in 1976 with the introduction of the painted frame NP & B&M units.
Lionel had used stamped metal handrails on its GP7/9s and the Virginia rectifier electric throughout the postwar years.
The MPC era began with a few different unique handrail configurations on its diesels before returning to the more durable stamped metal of postwar years.
Does anyone (Todd?) know why it took MPC that long to return to a proven design. Simply a matter of production costs???
Jim
Jim,
The exact reasons for certain things being done over the years remains elusive. A great portion of the people handling the day-to-day details of the train line in the early 1970's are sadly no longer with us, although I keep in touch with a few. I'm not sure I've ever asked the handrail question directly of them, so I'll report back if I learn anything of interest.
Having said that, a few things I know about early 1970's Geeps...
1) Despite being catalogued in 1970, the first Geep -- the 6-8030 Illinois Central GP-9 -- didn't ship until early 1971. This was likely due to all the engineering changes that were made -- integral motor truck with modified pick-ups, heavily modified frame, modified fuel tank, etc.
2) The 1971 Geeps -- the 6-8030 and 6-8031 Canadian National GP-7 for the Canadian market -- had the 2411-4 stakes for handrail supports and also the hollow roller pick-ups. There was a 6-8130 Illinois Central GP-9 dummy with horn planned for 1971, but it was never catalogued or produced.
3) In 1972, the handrails changed to have the somewhat fragile plastic supports, and this lasted through 1975 on the Geeps. The roller pick-ups were changed to the 8209-165, a lasting design that's still in use today. A new roadname -- the 6-8250 Santa Fe -- was produced for the first time, and new runs of the IC and CN were made with the updated features. Dummies were made as the 6-8254 IC, 6-8258 CN and 6-8255 ATSF. Once again, dummies with horns as the 6-8251 ATSF and 6-8259 CN were planned, but not cataloged or produced.
4) The big Geep news for 1973 was the introduction of the GP-20 model as the 6-8352 Santa Fe and 6-8360 Long Island, using rather ingenious inserts and modifications to the GP-9 tooling. (The MPC tooling guys were absolute magicians when it came to tooling design.) The diesel horn finally debuted after two years of development in GP-20 dummies as the 6-8355 ATSF and 6-8367 LI.
5) Things stayed basically the same for 1974 and 1975. But in 1976, a modified Geep frame was introduced with stamped metal handrails, borrowing a design that was first introduced on the new U36B in 1974. As Rob pointed out above, this gave them the ability to paint the frames a solid color for the first time. This new design had the handrails riveted the entire length of each side of the frame. Unfortunately, this early stamped handrail design had ends that turned inward and nested in a square divot in the Geep body shell. This resulted in many shells being scratched by the handrails if they needed to be removed from the frame. It lasted through 1977.
6) Two more Geep changes occurred in 1978. First was a new model, the SD-18, using a brand-new six-wheel Flexicoil truck. A shorter fuel tank was created, and frame modifications were made to handle the new truck. Across the board, whereas the stamped metal handrails had been riveted the prior two years, they were spot welded to the frame starting this year. Thankfully, the ends were now straight, and no longer turned inward to the cab. The frame end rails, which had always been riveted going all the way back to postwar, were now integral to the frame stamping itself. This revised handrail design continues essentially unchanged today.
Other changes were made after this (diamond plate pattern, return of the 2028-style motor truck, etc.) but I'll keep things in the 1970's for now. This post ended being more of a history lesson than what I expected to write, but I'm guessing there's a few people that should enjoy reading it.
TRW
Thanks for the info, Todd. 
Jim
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