LED Light Conversion - The End Result

Bobby,

What was the driving force which convinced you to make this conversion?  Where you having difficulty with the standard lighting?

Ron

Ron

the difference is very visible. led lighting looks so much better and clearer. with led you can see the inside details of the passenger cars as people sitting. I as well just finished up my conversion on mth r142 subway set and lionel mw 18" passenger cars. They came out great. Dont mean to hijack thread from bob. I will be posting pics as well. And like bob said, a great many thanks to gunrunnerjohn for all the help. 

BOBBY O -

Thanks for your great tips, diagrams and photos for upgrading our train lighting systems. I think most guys really appreciate your info and knowledge and would like to do these projects too.

I have one request - do you have any photos of the exact wiring connections before the heat shrink was applied?

I am a complete electrical novice and not good at soldering either.

Thanks again

Great post, thanks for taking the time putting together the document. Only thing missing are the links to websites for buying the parts or maybe someone buying bulk quantities and selling unassembled kits on the forum?

I chose to assemble the kits and sell them.

It should be fairly easy to select a list of parts from Digikey or Mouser and post them.  The only problem is the peanut gallery will then start telling you that you can buy part XYZ cheaper on eBay or some other source.  The difference is, you can get good prices on a package of parts and buy them all from one source when you pick a major electrical distributor.

Thanks for posting, I saved your attachment for future use. Some electronic parts must be sacrificed during the development of all new circuits. Sometimes even when reproducing a circuit that was proven to have worked previously. Fortunately most parts are inexpensive, and always order extras. Don't ask me how I came up with this theory...

Bobby (and by reference, John) - nicely done all around.  The fact that you (both) are willing to explain these things in detail - in some cases repeatedly - is really very helpful, especially folks who are just 'tuning in' to these kinds of conversions.  Kudos for your patience.

I do have one - hopefully clarifying - question regarding your intended use.  I assume your application is for a layout with constant voltage command/control, e.g., Legacy, TMCC or DCS (or, I guess, LC/LC+), so the circuit will then deliver constant current DC to the LED strip (at a more or less constant DC voltage).  But in your nicely done MS Word writeup you say: "However, this is not for powered units with DCS, TMCC and Legacy command controls".  So I'm confused, unless you are referring to the actual locos themselves and not the lighted rolling stock(??).

If this circuit were used with conventional variable AC track voltage, presumably it will still work, but the LED brightness will vary with input voltage up to ~12 VAC??  As has been discussed in other threads, if one wanted to have a constant LED brightness in a variable VAC system, you'd have to go to a buck-boost type circuit.

Having converted LIONEL postwar and MPC/LTI 2500 style aluminum passenger cars (the ones with silhouettes), the switch from OEM incandescent bulbs to LED's has a couple of advantages.  Cosmetically, the LED strip lighting eliminates the hotspots typical of incandescent bulbs, especially for those using DCS or TMCC/Legacy.  Also, the LED's greatly reduce the current needed to light the cars.

I've toyed with the idea of revisiting a voltage doubler circuit with an LM317HVT part to cover the full range of around 5-6 volts up to 18-19 volts track power.  However, for really wide ranging voltages, the buck/boost switcher is probably the best answer.

GRJ, would that be because of heat from the LM317, or just not a good application for it?

And is the buck/boost switcher you mention the small inexpensive Asian one with the bridge rectifier already added and LM2596?

I am going to try your light boards in a couple of caboose (cabooses, cabeese?). (Still don't have any passenger cars, Lionel got my entire train budget this time around for those new command control accessories...)

Yep, the power dissipation of the LM317 when it's dropping a lot of voltage would start to be a factor.  The voltage doubler will put out around 40-45 volts at 18 volts track power, let's assume 45.  If you are running 30ma to the strips, you'd be generating a bit over a watt of heat in the LM317.  That's getting into the area where you may need a heatsink.  Certainly, at those levels, you wouldn't want to put the LM317 against a plastic shell!

It's certainly a thing that can be done, but it's something that would take a little thinking on.  It's also hard to compete with the cheap Chinese parts...

Ok, thanks for the explanation. Maybe some of this is going to stick one of these days (or finally has?).

I was just looking at your lighting kits and it said for command control and 12-19 volts. I thought you were using the constant current and the lower conventional voltages could be used as well?

I'm all command control, so they are fine for me, was just curious? Maybe I got lost somewhere in the thread you had going about them? Apparently that didn't stick.

The difference in my lighting kit is no voltage doubler, hence I'm dissipating a lot less power in the LM317T part.  If you figure I get around 25 volts on the input, and there is 10 volts (approx) on the LED at the desired brightness, I only have to handle the 15V drop across the LM317, about 0.45 watts.  That's half what the voltage doubler solution dissipates and makes a significant difference in the operating temperature of the LM317.

Ron045,

What drove me to the LED conversion?

I currently have 12 8-car passenger trains and two 6-car El trains running, 6 of which consume power on my layout at one time. Also I have several lighted cabooses on my layout. That's a lot of current flow from my single Z4000 power supply, and I need more than 50 LED conversion circuits.

So the bottom line reasons for my do-it-yourself LED conversions are to reduce the current draw from my Z4000, and to make the cost of the conversions affordable.

Next I will be converting the 14 switch controllers and switch lanterns that draw track power too.

Bob, per chance did you measure the current on an incandescent car and the LED conversion?  I recall gunrunnerjohn had posted this information, albeit not for your specific circuit or car, but it was dramatic.

The LED upgrades typically use around 20-40 ma, depending on how bright you like your lighting.  The MTH 18" passenger cars with incandescent lighting clock in at about 1/3 amp.

For my measured usage for converted and unconverted car...

LED Lighting: .025A

Incandescent: .33A

Looks like around 8% of the current draw of the original car.  All measurements at 18 volts.

Thanks GRJ and Bobby O. I've learned a lot about LEDs.  Great work.

grj, thanks for posting the information--only using 8% of the current draw compared to the incandescent car is very significant.

I see why Bobby Ogage has undertaken his extensive conversion project.

I have converted 15 Rail King passenger cars to LED lighting. The sketch below is the general arrangements I have standardized for my trains. Before you start stringing wires, it's a good idea to do the following detailing beforehand:

> Interior painting;

> Decorate the dining tables;

> Adding passenger figures;

> Attach a drumhead to the observation cars;

> Add baggage and or freight in the baggage car and combine.

From the Peanut Gallery:

I've been gathering components for a slightly different implementation. Because of "block bridging" by the pickup rollers has been a long-standing issue, my approach is going to place an LM317-based power supply in the baggage car fed from pickup rollers and use connections to the passenger cars to drive the LEDs since the current draw is so low. The rollers on the other passenger cars in the consist would be removed.

Those are really nice graphics.

Some comments:

- In the last graphic where you use 3mm LEDs to light the lanterns, suggest you show these LEDs are polarized and require the + and - sides hooked up in a specific orientation relative to the power coming from the strip.  Perhaps a graphic of the flat-edge of the 3mm LED as being the - side.

- A 900 ohm resistor value is not common whereas 910 is quite common.  Perhaps indicate a 1/4Watt resistor is sufficient.

- Apparently you are using a bridge rectifier per your original post to perform the AC-to-DC voltage conversion.  That said, your notes about the LED strip getting its + voltage from the "3rd rail roller pickup" might be confusing.  The bridge rectifier has 2 inputs that come from the AC track typically labeled with the squiggly line symbol "~".  There's no difference in how those 2 ~ are hooked to the track roller and wheel.  What absolutely matters is the "+" output of the bridge rectifier goes to the "+" of the LED strip (via the regulator circuit).

Bob, this is the top two of the best "how to" posts on LED conversions, yet.

I'm doing the conversions on LIONEL 15" silhouette aluminum cars, with some full length and regular domes with interiors, but a lot of your information and illustrations is easily transferred to my application.

What software do you use?  I've posted "how to" photos of my conversions, but your illustrations are superior. 

Thanks for taking the time to create these terrific illustrations.

What have you settled on for the connection method between cars?

Here's a 2012-2013 thread (now archived) where I got into LED passenger car upgrades, in a similar fashion as the original poster, complete with diagrams as I learned (and made mistakes) and installation photos right up to the finished product:

Also, a 2014 post showing the arrangement of components I built. It's almost identical to the one at the top of this thread, except I didn't use any shrinkwrap, depending on the stiffness of the component leads to maintain air gaps. By the way, I used a pair of those "helping hands" alligator-clips on-adjustable-arms tools to hold the wires and leads together as I soldered them (a bit of Nokorode soldering paste helped too)

One thing I didn't get too far into in that thread was my attempts to avoid modifying the interior fittings of the car (a set of MTH Superliners) too much. I started out with craft-stick-and-styrene bridges over the original light-bulb slots in the MTH light bars, but once I reached the sightseer lounge, I devised another, neater method that alters the car even less. These can be seen near the end of the above-linked thread. 

Once you remove the original MTH bulbs from the light strip, insulate the copper strips with masking tape, and place the LED strip face down on it, securing it with 1" long bits of craft stick hot-glued across it every few inches. The LED spacing is just enough to fit the slots in the MTH light bar with a little fiddling (or a few millimeters filed away from the end of 1-2 slots), and one need not be concerned about the strip adhesive failing since it is not used retain the strip--its held against the roof by the original light bar, and kept pointed through the light-bar slots by the hot-glued craft-stick bits. 

---PCJ

I looked at the MTH light bars, but I found it a lot easier and cleaner to just remove all that stuff and stick the strips directly to the top of the car.

Ditto on removing the existing lamp bar. And guys while you are at it how about mounting the components on some perf board and making it look a little more professional. It will not only look better but it will make the whole circuit more compact and the mount more secure.

Pete

Thanks all for your favorable comments.

Stan2004,

I will update my sketch with your suggestions and re-post it. Thanks

An easy alternative if your passenger cars use bayonnet type bulbs is to use an 1819 bulb. It's rated 28 volts but at 18 volts is a nice yellow color. At 28 volts it's rated at 40 ma but at 18 volts it uses only 25 ma. I have an 8 car passenger set that used more than 6 amps for the lighting but now uses  less than an amp.

You're still stuck with the uneven lighting of the bulbs, not to mention the flicker as they run.  The LED solution solves both of those issues, and drops the current even further.  Those eight cars would be using around 200-300 ma all equipped with LEDs.

GRJ, is there such a thing as a bayonet-to-wire adapter?

I made one from a burned out bayonet bulb by carefully removing the glass and soldering 2 wires...

and hooked it up to the Henning's Trains LED lighting board that you might have heard of

I wonder if it would make it even simpler to retro-fit LEDs into cars with existing bayonet style sockets.  This would allow completely separating the top/shell from the chassis (by removing the bayonet adapter).  And if for whatever reason one wanted to go back to incandescent bulbs, no wires or whatever were spliced or cut on the original chassis.

Clever idea Stan, I confess I have never seen such an adapter.

Here's my bayonet bulb converted to LED. In the background is a signal bridge with bayonet-LEDs and the relay board used to control them. Simple circuit- a relay, a capacitor to hold the relay on for 1-2 seconds to prevent flicker, and a diode to provide DC for the relay and cap.

If there was an image there it would doubtless be more useful.   This is what I see, I liked your image.

?? I can see it. But I'll add it here again.

Much better.

Something happened to the upload of the first one.

Here's the URL of the good one.

https://ogrforum.com/f...ge/true/100_0437.JPG

And here's the URL of the bad one.

https://ogrforum.com/s...ge/true/100_0437.JPG

Note that the bad one was stuck in the file upload process.  I've seen this before.