LionChief Control - Lots of Detailed Questions Please Help!

I have most of these answers, and I'm not trying to hold them back, but I'm facing 2 problems. I'm traveling for the holiday and so I'm time limited and could be a day or two before far more in depth answers and links and pictures, and the other kicker, you may not be able to buy the Lionchief 2.0 boards, you might have trouble finding and getting the older ones too in the parts catalog.

Lionchief plus generally needs a very specific tachometer board and flywheel- That said, there are generatons and very, very, very few were tachless back emf.

So your problem is, then you need to buy a complete Lionchief plus motor, and that may or may not have been removed because the tach board, flywheel and optical wheel were not separately listed.

I'll put it another way. I was doing much of what you desire. I was reverse engineering the connections and pinouts of the boards, wiring harness and so forth. I was figuring out the required parts for each.

Then, suddenly boards and components that were listed no longer are in the parts website. My gut worry is Lionel saw my postings, my details on how to use some of these board, and basically killed off access.

Also, no, no programming and no changing of sounds. For the purpose of this discussion, you have to buy the board you want with the features and sounds you want and that's it.

Lionchief (the non-plus) still doable, you can still get them, they are very simple to install and use.

The bad- I've talked about seeing a few failures locally of the more recent lionchief boards- the motor drive section. This is because that entire sub assembly was changed to different outputs for the H-bridge.

So no, no amperage is listed, and it's board specific, and at best guess, what the thermal and practical limit is. You can look up the components, the data sheets (main bridge, H bridge output) and get some idea, but they are not generally heatsinked and so there is significant derating factor due to thermal problems at high load.

Here is a copy of my H-bridge details- again this is Lionchief- but might apply on case by case basis.

Looking those parts up, those are IRF7343 https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/...00a4015355f68c1a1b73
Key rating here is the P channel side of this dual MOSFET limited to 3.4A however dropping to 2.7 quickly at 70C temp.
Again, in an H bridge, one P channel conducts, and one N channel to drive the motor in a given direction. So the limit is the lowest device in the chain (typically the P channel MOSFET which has higher ON resistance).

Now, the interesting part is that Lionel has retained the same 6 contact modular interface to the motherboard and so the previous version of the motor driver card is compatible!!
Again, it's this right angle joint the 2 boards contact, 2 on one side which are main DC, and then the 4 control lines on the opposite side of the daughter card.

That driver card uses discrete components rather than these combine chip solution seen in the more recent boards.
IRF5305 https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/...00a401535632522820ff

IRLR024N https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/...00a4015356694f7f265d

And you just solder the old style in place of the new style

Again, I almost hate to say it, but this is slowly becoming a dead path. Fun while it lasted but really is not a valid widespread upgrade or hacking path in the way that ERR and PS2 and PS3 were sold. And with every post like this of hardcore details, I feel like Lionel drops another shoe.

And wait for it, the gratuitous mentioning of other brands of bluetooth boards.......

@Vernon Barry posted:

Again, I almost hate to say it, but this is slowly becoming a dead path. Fun while it lasted but really is not a valid widespread upgrade or hacking path in the way that ERR and PS2 and PS3 were sold. And with every post like this of hardcore details, I feel like Lionel drops another shoe.

And wait for it, the gratuitous mentioning of other brands of bluetooth boards.......

Thank you very much Vernon for your reply!  I understand you are busy (extra thank you, enjoy your vacation)!  I am in no hurry to implement, just trying to figure things out.

To clarify the reason for topic, it is not my intent to steal Lionel IP.  I am trying to find the limitations of LionChief before purchasing boards from a legit seller.  To decide if I should go that way or buy another solution.  I will update my opening post to add this information!

What I like about LionChief is the potential cost versus the higher end alternatives.  I realize in the out of the box form it does not provide the same level of performance or features.  Lionel offers it as low cost alternative for people like me, that will accept compromise to save a few bucks.

I also like the Ergonomics for the Universal Controller,both how it fits your hand and the operational simplicity.

From your response, it appears like Lionel doesn't choose to support how I was hoping to use the system.  In some ways I understand this.  Some might purchase a board, mis-apply it, then demand a refund.  This isn't me, but I know things like this happen.

On the other hand it could help them to sell more product, increasing volume and lowering cost.

@hokie71 posted:

Wow! I have six lion chief locos and have replaced a board on one so I am not the guy to answer your questions. If I understand your plan, the idea is to replace the guts of conventional locos with lionchief? I don't want to discourage fun and creativity but this is quite the lobotomy. I don't know the range you think is "inexpensive" but for my nickel, this is not in the attractive ROI range. I am curious about what others recommend.

Thank you for your input.  Yes that is my plan.  I hope others will respond.

When looking on Lionel's website the MSRP for LionChief boards are in the $50 range.  This is considerably lower than an ANY other commercially available control systems wireless or not.  As you probably gathered I am willing to do some "sweat equity" to get there.

In an ideal world I would be able to find a Wireless board that would be a "plug and play swap for the QSI ERU" in my locomotives for $50 or less.  I haven't found that, if someone knows where I can get them PLEASE let me know.

@MainLine Steam posted:

When looking on Lionel's website the MSRP for LionChief boards are in the $50 range.  This is considerably lower than an ANY other commercially available control systems wireless or not.  As you probably gathered I am willing to do some "sweat equity" to get there.

In an ideal world I would be able to find a Wireless board that would be a "plug and play swap for the QSI ERU" in my locomotives for $50 or less.  I haven't found that, if someone knows where I can get them PLEASE let me know.

Along about here @BOB WALKER will probably be chiming in about Bluetooth, although rail-oriented solutions based on it are probably more pricey than the $50 solution you're looking for.

The size of the "O" Gauge market is too small to generate the kind of volume that allows economies of scale to bring the price of electronics down any lower than it presently is, even when LionChief is included from the traditional part of the business.

It comes down to generating your own solution.  Are you ok with such a one-off approach?.  There's plenty to work with, including Arduinos for instance, but not much to plug into them for "O" Gauge applications, e.g. Power Drivers for motors, smoke, couplers.

Having said all this, I wish you luck.  This hobby benefits greatly from the investment of effort at all levels, whether using old technology or new, including layouts, locomotives, signaling, lighting, communications and networking, audio and sounds, AC power supplies, software and remote control.  Your efforts will support this forward growth nicely.

Push on.

Mike

Jim. Just a thought I was running Legacy controll. Got frustrated with issues that developed when doing so. So I went to deadrail took my legacy locos gutted them left only motor wires and speaker  added a battery  and then added RailPro system . I am very new to RC but I can tell you that my trains have never ran so good. I also have a lionchief NW2 that I hooked up with battery power only but now that I have done a few conversions it will be stripping  and adding Rail Pro. Also  some of the deadrail group  run are BlueRail. . I am going to buy used locos from online sources to do conversions.  If that interests you can  check out Trainz.com.

Those of us who have installed BlueRail and RailPro have gotten good results. You need to use a wireless system for battery power to work. Does not mean that track based systems don't play out well. I still run conventional and TMCC.

Mike, Bill and Bob Thank you for your suggestions.  I probably will end up going with BlueRail or RailPro as so far it seems the effort to try and make LionChief work probably isn't going to be worth the effort.  I realize why those systems are priced as they are (low volume).

I was hoping to leverage off a relatively high volume product like LionChief to cut cost.  Lionel could obviously offer generic boards using their technology with ample current carrying capacity for any locomotive, that could be end user programmed.  I have a tendency to try to come up with novel solutions using common components.  So that is the approach I was taking here.  Hard to break old habits, that were formed from being a design engineer for over 40 years.

When I designed a product I tried to make it as universal as possible.  Lionel however has "backed themselves into a corner" in that if they chose the best solution at this point, they would be "cutting their own throats".  An optimized LionChief product would displace their Legacy Product as the best premium solution.  Since they don't have any direct competition they can get away with offering a "hobbled" LionChief product while putting band-aids on their Legacy product.

The Base3 is a desperate attempt at using the band-aid approach.  Guys that already have Legacy really don't need it (by adding incremental improvements they are trying to create a demand that doesn't exist).  Oh and you no longer support the "old" Legacy System with product or parts, to drive the newbies and defective product owners into Base3.

If they had an near equally sized competitor, the competitor would offer something similar to an optimized LionChief product (current technology) and kick Lionel's derrière.  Sorry to rant, it is just my opinion.

Jim good luck and keep us posted on your conversion in deadrail.

I've posted this multiple times.

What good is buying a bunch of different (now overpriced) engines when you can't get the command controls for them unless you already have them?  Isn't that the real answer to the the posts about a lost interest and future of O Gauge?

Wouldn't making the technology open sourced benefit the O Gauge model train producers in terms of locomotive sales?

John

"If they had an near equally sized competitor, the competitor would offer something similar to an optimized LionChief product (current technology) and kick Lionel's derrière.  Sorry to rant, it is just my opinion."

Maybe, maybe not.  For decades they had that competitor, but MTH took a different approach, which is including their high end electronics (PS2, PS3) in all their sets and locomotives for most of that period.  This actually gave Lionel a price advantage in starter sets and low end locomotives (but not at the high end).  So perhaps this is a small and difficult market in many ways.

LionChief is good value for money and the least expensive command system available in sets and locos.  One can see why Lionel does not want to sell the system for retrofitting, in order to avoid eating into new loco sales. However, it could have been a great system for those looking for command features that are quite reliable,  at modest prices, as you had planned.  But no third party has tried to make LionChief-work alikes available, and Lionel has shown no interest.

@Landsteiner posted:

Maybe, maybe not.  For decades they had that competitor, but MTH took a different approach, which is including their high end electronics (PS2, PS3) in all their sets and locomotives for most of that period.  This actually gave Lionel a price advantage in starter sets and low end locomotives (but not at the high end).  So perhaps this is a small and difficult market in many ways.

LionChief is good value for money and the least expensive command system available in sets and locos.  One can see why Lionel does not want to sell the system for retrofitting, order to avoid eating into new loco sales. However, it could have been a great system for those looking for command features that are quite reliable,  at modest prices, as you had planned.  But no third party has tried to make LionChief-work alikes available, and Lionel has shown no interest.

I agree with your take on this.  That is one of the reasons l like this forum.  I can learn from others.  I am just very frustrated with the current situation.

I unfortunately have mechanical engineering skills, but lack the electronic/programming knowledge to become that third party competitor.  That being said, I believe there is a market for such a product.

I hope somebody reading this, that has the knowledge will step forward.  I would gladly support them in any way I can.  I do understand how to develop a product.

Thank you for your insight!

@MainLine Steam posted:

If they had an near equally sized competitor, the competitor would offer something similar to an optimized LionChief product (current technology) and kick Lionel's derrière.  Sorry to rant, it is just my opinion.

I think you're missing an important point here.  Lionel isn't in the business of selling parts so that hobbyists can build or upgrade things.  They're in the business of selling trains, rolling stock, sets, and accessories, and they just happen to sell replacement parts for these.  We've been fortunate in the past to be able to buy these parts and build and upgrade to our hearts content.

Your wish is to beat them at a game that they're not playing.

BlueRail and RailPro are not competitors to Lionel. They are in a completely different market because they sell only parts.

Hence Lionel's derriere will not get kicked, and can never be kicked, by these two.  Until BlueRail, or RailPro, or some other entity, makes and sells trains, rolling stock, sets, and accessories on the same scale as Lionel there is no competition.

Mike

BTW -- If Lionel is no longer going to sell electronic parts, it's probably because they consciously don't want to be in the same business as BlueRail and RailPro.  It's purely a business decision and they're in a position to make it whether we like it or not.

Your point makes complete sense.  When I post, I want others opinions, that is how I learn and grow.  I will admit that I got carried away.  Your point is NOW well taken.  Thank you.

Interesting discussion. There are two kinds of model train enthusiasts, those who like and are satisfied with the available product lines and those who like to experiment with innovations. The after market is dependent on the second type of modeler. The constant advance of technology which has impacted the world of engine control has lured many in to the second group. Lionel understood this movement and responded with LionChief in order to keep involved. The move into app control is a good example of the response to the technology impact.

There are two kinds of people - people who group people into two groups and people who don't.  

All I know is that I want to be in Snoopy's group!

Notice it's 3 rail!