I don't think you can generalize 18 vs 21 inch cars. The 18 inch cars are nice but have their downfalls. 

The glass is mounted on the outside of the car, the car bodies are a tad higher, they are cookie cut cars that really do not match any type of real passenger cars. The domes are not correct and some are painted inside and some are not.  The lighting is very bright and the trucks are the same on every passenger set. 

The good is they look great on smaller radii, have a sturdy construction. durable couplers that work better than the new 21 inch cars, They have some heft,  and there are more available road names.

The ABS 21 inch cars have more of a prototype look, size, better flush windows, the second release have lower bodies, better looking trucks, and the station sound cars have more sounds. The lighting dims and draw fewer amps, and being lighter you can pull more cars up a grade.

The bad are the couplers - a complete disaster. No people inside and the interiors beg to be detailed. Some releases have bigger car gaps than their predecessors. Some cars like the SP had the wrong roofs. The cars feel cheaper with their light mass, and the generator car cannot be shout off via the remote.  The longer length cars just look odd on O72 and will have you double checking your clearances.

IMHO - I like the new cars. And with some Kadees attached to them, it will vastly improve their operating woes.

I'd go with the 21" cars personally. I know you said "quality control issues aside", but the fact is that the aluminum cars were much more prone to issues...both in quality control and design. They were gorgeous and all, but in the end there's a reason why Lionel decided to ditch the aluminum cars and go with the new 21" cars. The 21" inch cars have had their problems here and there as well, but from a design standpoint they are way better than the 18" cars. 

I guess what I'm trying to say, and to sort of get back to what you want to know, if you take away the quality control issues, the 21" cars are simply designed better.

This is all in my personal opinion, of course.

Thanks,

Eric Siegel

There is a lot of positives to be said for the newer 21 inch cars but to me, there is just something about the look, feel and finish of extruded aluminum that is hard to beat.  The Lionel extruded aluminum cars measure 19 inches in length, have nice detailed multicolored interiors with separate applied seats, details and PEOPLE.  I know that runners have been touting the 21 inch cars since Kline made some very nice ones but in most of the videos I have seen of 18 inch or 21 inch cars running on someones layout, in the majority of cases, the shorter ones look more at home.  But realize, prototype fidelity is not as important to me as how items look while running on my layout (which has 072 through 099 curves).

Not to mention that at 71, I have been accumulating "projects" most of my life and have come to realize that many (if not most) are not going to happen, so getting a car that looks good and is ready to place on the layout and run has become more important.

Good luck on your decision.

Happy railroading,

Don

Greetings All,

So, after looking at my 18” Lionel Pennsylvania Congressional Aluminum passenger cars I’m hard pressed to find any of the detractors that have been aforementioned.  All of the windows look good, the interiors are nicely painted and they are well populated. That being said, I must confess that as long as the equipment I seek has the general “flavor” of the prototype, I’m a happy camper.

Chief Bob (Retired)

Guys, I like both.  I also have a few passenger cars.  We live in great times for guys who like passenger cars.

I have always liked the 18” Lionel & K-Line aluminum cars. I tried the Weaver 21” Bradley cars but on 072 curves it looks ridiculous even though it runs through it OK. If I had larger radius curves I would go with 21” cars as well.

I like both, but for my layout, approx. 11 x 24, 18s look better to me. At this point I don't own any 21s. I'm borrowing a 21 from a friend to check clearances for a bridge I'm building, just in case. The additional 3 inches really make a difference, and to me, the 21s overpower most of the trains on my layout, which are prewar and much smaller. 

Just Like the OP, I too am a bit on the Fence. I have both in my collection.

MTH 18" Pax car Streamlined sets EMD demo and PRR Congressional Limited.

MTH 18" PRR Painted Aluminum set -sillouettes

MTH 18" Amtrak Amfleet cars- Phase III and Phase IV

MTH Amtrak TURBO Train

MTH 18" Conrail OCS set

Williams 18" Green Heavyweight Pax Set- sillouettes

K-line 18" Spirit of St. Louis set

K-line early Heavyweight 18" "Broadway Limited" set- sillouettes

Lionel 18" PRR heavyweight sets

Lionel 18" Lindbergh Special

Lionel 18" "Commuter car" set

Lionel PRR 18"Trailblazer Streamlined

Lionel AFT set.

Lionel 18 " Amtrak Superliner phase III.

Lionel Scale 18" Polar Express set.

Lionel Conrail 21" OCS set

Sunset Models Brass P70's P54's B60B's

Sunset Models 21" "Train of Tomorrow"

Sunset Models 21" Amtrak RDC II

GGD 21" Heavyweights, Clerestory and Modernized P70's

GGD Amtrak 21" Slumbercoach and 21" Full Dome

GGD Amtrak 21" El Capitan set

Atlas O Amtrak 21" SF Zephyr and Bombardier Coaches

And now as of 11/21/21 add to this list:

GGD 21" Amfleet 5 car sets phase1 and phase3 paint,  Amfleet phase2 coach , and Viewliner phase VI 5 car set.

Hmmm. Up to this point, I didn't think I had enough Passenger sets.... [Late Bloomer]

Quality control issues aside, when it comes to passenger cars my point of reference is following them from higher vantage points.  I am drawn to the serpentine nature of a string of passenger cars flowing along the right of way.

When it comes to modeling passenger service there is the need for balancing artistic license with operation esthetics.  A subjective  call at best.

I started out in the most recent house move to an extra large basement with the anticipation of running full length  passenger trains with the scores of passenger  cars I had accumulated. 

When I got the first segment of the mainline in place I thankfully rushed to see my first prototypical full   length  passenger train in place. 

WOW!  What a disappointment.  It took up almost the entire long back straight away,   from exiting one curve to entering the next one.  One big popped bubble.  I shuda-cudda calculated the anticipated train length but with such a "Big"  basement the thought never occurred  to me.

After anguishing in my disappointment I sold off 48 full length passenger cars and many large engines and redirected my modeling efforts towards branch line operation and limited 72' passenger service  with modest length trains.  It was either that or drop down to S scale.  Train / surrounding proportion is my target.

The kicker is that my curve size is 0120 and 0144.  I found the angles created between each  of the cars on  my smaller radius/diameter curves to be visually undesirable incapable of recreating the serpentine effect of real railroading.  I do run individual RDC cars and doodlebugs but running individually there are no angles over the couplers with the  single long cars on tight 5' & 6' radius curves.

Scenery is still aways off but I will be hiding most of my curves in mountains.  Just one man's perspective.

In my world I look at the train as a whole and not the cars so much.

But isn’t  the size of passenger cars also directly related to the size and scale of the engine or locomotives pulling them? Same with cabooses and to a lesser extent rolling stock. The consist has to look right.

I like 18 inch and aluminum

IMO

@J Daddy posted:

The cars feel cheaper with their light mass, and the generator car cannot be shout off via the remote.

That could be fixed.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

That could be fixed.

If there is some way of doing this apart from installing an ERR Mini-Commander board effectively as a kind of remote power switch, I’d be interested in knowing what it is and getting hold of it! I have not tried to modify my generator car yet as I could not come up with/find any control option but the ERR one. I do have another car in which I’ve installed a M-C for remote smoke and light control and it works seamlessly through the CAB2 remote as an accessory even though it’s TMCC.

The Universal Wireless Remote Control Topic

I will throw in some thoughts as a relative “newbie”. Got seriously into O gauge about 4 years ago after being on the “fringe” so to speak for a long time (my dad was a huge railroad fan and belonged to a large HO club in New Jersey which I visited on a number of occasions). I have always been a big fan of the streamlined era of railroading, so when I started thinking about my first layout, I knew I wanted it to be focused on passenger cars. Four years ago, there was still a good availability on the Lionel 18” aluminum cars from previous years production. I knew from the beginning that I was not a stickler for everything being prototypically correct. I mainly wanted my passenger cars to visually have a nice eye appeal while on my upcoming layout. I also felt that visitors looking at my layout, unless they were serious train guys, would not notice detail differences. So, I started buying some of the Lionel 18” aluminum passenger cars. Also bought some MTH 18” passenger cars. I have always been impressed with the “feel” of the Lionel 18” aluminum cars- a nice, somewhat “hefty” feel. But note that much of that hefty feel comes from the die cast chassis plates- remove that piece and the weight of the car changes noticeably. I also realized early on, as noted by Tom Tee, that 21” cars, while quite impressive to eye, when coupled up into a nice consist, with an A-B-A unit attached, would overpower my layout ( my first layout is 12’ x 22’). I love long passenger train consists like you see in photos from the 50’s and 60’s but realized early on that one long train would easily run the length of my layout and into the first curve if I had 21” cars, so the reality is 18” cars serve me much better. As also stated by Tom Tee, without downsizing in scale, I felt some compromise was necessary, so, for me, and my size layout, the 18” cars will be just fine with probably a shorter consist. As noted by others, the Lionel 18” aluminum cars have their quality issues- mostly the cars from around the 2010 production run, as I recall - zinc rot on the truck side frames on the Santa Fe and Southern Pacific cars, and some of the Union Pacific and El Capitan cars have issues with zinc rot on the chassis plates. Spare cars are helpful to have for parts, which shouldn’t be the case considering the original cost of these cars. While veering off from the original topic slightly, comparing the Lionel 18” cars to MTH 18” cars, I just like the quality feel of the aluminum cars and the greater level of detail, especially on the chassis and interiors. The Lionel 18” aluminum PRR Congressional cars and SP Sunset Limited cars are, to me, just beautiful, along with many of the other varieties of road names. I know there are differences of opinion on how the windows are affixed on the Lionel 18” aluminum cars and the fact that they are all alike in many of the details- I can live with that. If layout size were not an issue and I could have a much larger layout, I would probably prefer 21” cars, but for a smaller size layout, the 18” cars look much better. Hope this reply was not too “long winded”.

This question can never be fully answered as it is personal preference.  I grew up with real passenger trains seeing as many as 10 a day all the way through high school and rode on my share of passenger train over the 34 years since then.  I will never be satisfied with cars that are not prototype length.  The vast majority of streamlined cars were 85' in length or roughly 21" long.  I don't care what anyone says about curve overhang, short cars are just short and stick out like a sore thumb to me.  Yes, there were shorter cars produced but as I always say, "It pays to know your prototype."   

As for the Lionel 21" cars, I purchased an Amtrak 21" dome car and was pleasantly surprised at the quality.  I have over 150 scale length passenger cars and I am very happy with the look.

Finally, no one complains about the overhang of a scale GG1, Big Boy, Challenger, or any large articulated steam locomotive yet somehow the overhang of passenger cars is offensive.  I call cognitive dissonance on that one.  

My personal opinion.

I remember a series of articles in Model Railroader on "pike sized" passenger trains. Mostly these were towards the end of passenger service but if you want a prototype for your train and one that will fit on most of our layouts you might check out that series.

(Of course there's nothing like a full length Super Chief, Broadway Limited and etc but realistically--)

As a follow up, I am thinking that many people running streamlined passenger cars would be running them behind period E and F series diesels. Behind these, 18” cars look just fine and motive power overhangs are minimal; behind a PRR S1 or Challenger, 18” cars might appear a bit short and the whole overhang “ thing” on both motive power and cars comes into play. But the bottom line here is that it is your railroad- so car length, overhangs etc- it should be whatever pleases you and works for your layout.

Great topic, it’s up to the individual, my layout has minimum curves 072, maximum 0108, however the size of my layout 17 by 36 isn’t really set up for 21 inch passenger cars. I like operating the 18 inch aluminum and 18 inch heavyweight cars as they do not dwarf the layout. I do mix some 21 inch cars for fun, like the Santa Fe 21 inch full vista dome StationSounds car, the CSX 21 inch theater camera car. Lionel’s 21 inch plastic streamliner cars are top quality, it’s just the length. Happy Thanksgiving Everyone l

With regards to Lionel cars specifically, the 18” cars have interiors with figures and some color on that interior. They couple in the next zip code though. The 21” cars have no figures except a few special ones and a bland interior. They do couple closer and can be modified to couple even closer without having to resort to lopping off the claws and switching to kadees. They both have the same profile though and can be mixed if desired.

Pete

@GG1 4877 posted:

This question can never be fully answered as it is personal preference.  I grew up with real passenger trains seeing as many as 10 a day all the way through high school and rode on my share of passenger train over the 34 years since then.  I will never be satisfied with cars that are not prototype length.  The vast majority of streamlined cars were 85' in length or roughly 21" long.  I don't care what anyone says about curve overhang, short cars are just short and stick out like a sore thumb to me.  Yes, there were shorter cars produced but as I always say, "It pays to know your prototype."   

As for the Lionel 21" cars, I purchased an Amtrak 21" dome car and was pleasantly surprised at the quality.  I have over 150 scale length passenger cars and I am very happy with the look.

Finally, no one complains about the overhang of a scale GG1, Big Boy, Challenger, or any large articulated steam locomotive yet somehow the overhang of passenger cars is offensive.  I call cognitive dissonance on that one.  

My personal opinion.

A word to the wise, DONT BREAK THE DOME on the Lionel 21" Dome cars! Its very difficult to fix without any parts!

the answers here are most times binary; MTH or LNL; 2 rail or 3 rail. Tortious(sp?) v DZ; DZ-1000s v DZ-2500s.

when it comes to passenger cars most of us started with 15" cars or less. So 18" was a step up to better scale cars and 21" is a step further to actual best scale.

HOWEVER, it is not a binary choice.  You can use both. . . . but toss the 15"ers!

@AlanRail posted:

the answers here are most times binary; MTH or LNL; 2 rail or 3 rail. Tortious(sp?) v DZ; DZ-1000s v DZ-2500s.

when it comes to passenger cars most of us started with 15" cars or less. So 18" was a step up to better scale cars and 21" is a step further to actual best scale.

HOWEVER, it is not a binary choice.  You can use both. . . .but toss the 15"ers!

Not so fast, @AlanRail.  I thought I'd like 18" or 21" passenger cars.  But I joined a train club with a 18' X 43' permanent layout and have seen those size cars operate and they look totally out of place and unrealistic when connected to an ABA with 6 or more cars or any other similar consist.  If you want to own them to display, or photograph them on a layout in what amount to diorama settings, that's another story.  But operating them on a layout of any realistically available size, they'll look out of place.

Those cars require huge layouts and vastly shortened consists if you're talking about name train, trans continental consists.

For running trains, I'm very happy with nicely detailed 15" aluminum cars and let my imagination take care of the prototype issues.

I am very happy with my Lionel 21 inch passenger cars but I detailed the interiors and run them at my club ‘s  4000 square feet  layout (TMB Model Train Club) Take a quick look

@FJI posted:

I am very happy with my Lionel 21 inch passenger cars but I detailed the interiors and run them at my club ‘s  4000 square feet  layout (TMB Model Train Club) Take a quick look

Do you have any photos or videos showing your handsome train on what John Armstrong would describe as a cosmetic curve showing the train's full length?   

remember there is more out there , than just lionel