lionel 2020

If this is the version from 1946, which seems to fit your description, it has the old light bulb smoke unit, which used smoke pellets.

Yes.. I think it is the older version.   But, how does the smoke puff out?  My other engines have a mechanism that pushes the smoke out.   I am not that experienced so I appreciate your help.

Ron

If you have the smoke bulb, plus NO lever for the E unit on top of shell, it is from 1946.  It uses smoke pellets, not fluid, 

Yes, this must be1946 which is cool.  There is no lever for the E unit.  But, I am still confused...and excuse me since i am somewhat a rookie. But, if I drop a smoke pellet ...it will melt from the heat of the lamp...but it won't puff out since there is nothing to push the smoke out.....am I missing something ? 

Ron

The motion of the train will create a vacuum inside the stack, wafting the vapors out. Not quite the same, but it works kamerade.

I have  '46 2020. There's a small nub on back of one of the front drivers that bumps a small flapper up and down to "puff" out the smoke. 

El Classico posted:

The motion of the train will create a vacuum inside the stack, wafting the vapors out. Not quite the same, but it works kamerade.

Ron I have that engine. It has a metal plate that is activated by a cam on the front driver wheel. It moves up and down with each revolution. Sometimes the bakelite waffer on the metal plate is worn, I built it up with "JB Weld". I also placed some wick material on top of the bulb & used smoke fluid, it works but not like the later ones, Vic.

I added a bit of tiki torch wicking on  the top of my smoke lamp in my 2020 and run liquid smoke in mine. I have to replace the wicking occasionally, but it smokes a lot better than it used to.

Not the easiest to see with the light colored "grass" and rather poor video quality

J White

This is a picture of the flapper that is attached to the frame between the 1 st and 2 nd set of drivers. A screw on each side of the frame holds the flapper on. Let me know if you need it.

The part number is 671-96. 

Guys

I don't think there is a flap or anything to push out the smoke.  Please check the pics...and let me know what you think.

Thank you

Ron

Yes, the flapper and spring assembly are missing on yours. I would take Stew up on his offer, and ask if he also has the special spring and screws.

The engine didn't use the SP pellets, rather the ammonium nitrate 196 pellets only made in '46-47.  SP pellets and liquid smoke fluid will work as several have stated above, but with less smoke than the original pellets. But don't add liquid until the bulb has cooled, as you know what happens when liquid meets hot glass!

Here are some more pictures of flapper and spring.

Well, what do you know? Seems that after all this time I'm still learning things.  

subway vic posted:

El Classico posted:

The motion of the train will create a vacuum inside the stack, wafting the vapors out. Not quite the same, but it works kamerade.

Ron I have that engine. It has a metal plate that is activated by a cam on the front driver wheel. It moves up and down with each revolution. Sometimes the bakelite waffer on the metal plate is worn, I built it up with "JB Weld". I also placed some wick material on top of the bulb & used smoke fluid, it works but not like the later ones, Vic.

The flapper pictured above is bent. Normally they lie flat against the chassis when in the down position. I doubt the bend is causing any problems. It might even improve the smoking action, I never tried bending one.

If Stew does not have all the parts you need, it looks like The Train Tender does.

I have not seen too many '46 turbines with the flapper removed. I wonder whether it was taken out because the drive pin was loose or missing.

The motion of the train will create a vacuum inside the stack, wafting the vapors out. Not quite the same, but it works kamerade.

The only Postwar locomotive that used the motion of the train to make the smoke come out of the stack was the 6110. This engine does not have an illuminated headlight, and there is a hole above the headlight housing to let air into the smoke unit. The 6110 smoke unit is unique.

The Postwar smoking caboose also worked by using the motion of the train. There are inlet vents at the bottom of the smoke unit, underneath the car.

Ok...so, it looks like my 2020 is missing the flapper and the control arm to the front wheel to drive the flapper up and down.  It seems odd that this is missing since it didn't look like this engine was apart for many many years,

Oh well, thanks for your help and I will look for the parts.  Do you guys know the part numbers...for the flapper, control arm and I think a spring is needed?  Also, you mentioned pellets...I have smoke pellets bought recently for heat type smoke units like on my other engines.  Are these pellets ok to use?

Thanks and now off to work- I will read your replies later

Ron

Here are some pages on the 1946 version of the 2020 / 671 turbines. I have never seen a complete set of service manual pages for this engine. The first page appears to be an original Lionel service manual page. The balance of the pages appear to have been created by Olsens. Unfortunately, they missed some of the smoke unit flapper parts. At a minimum, the second (short) screw and cam follower are missing.

671 / 2020 pages

The smoke bulb did not last long and Lionel offered a conversion kit. I could not find any mention for the 2020/671 but Greenbergs has some info about this with the 726. Here's a link to Olsen's train parts with the instruction sheets.

franktrain

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/726-46.htm

The smoke bulb did not last long and Lionel offered a conversion kit. I could not find any mention for the 2020/671 but Greenbergs has some info about this with the 726. Here's a link to Olsen's train parts with the instruction sheets.

According to Carl Shaw, the smoke bulb engines (2020/671 and 726) had a very short run, less than a full year. The smoke bulb conversion kits (726S and 671S) were available from Lionel right up through 1969.

I have handled many smoke bulb turbines, and some smoke bulb Berkshires too. Very few were converted, most still had their smoke bulbs in place.

There is demand among collectors for those kits, unused in their original packaging.

once you get it working, suggest you keep the bulb unit (you can buy replacement lamps when you need them).

I use the bulb in my 2020 with wicking material on top of the bulb, which holds the smoke fluid ok. 

works fine.

What you need is the flapper, spring and left and right shoulder screws. The bent up flapper provides more or better airflow out of the stack.  This was was explained to me from a Lionel repair station owner by the name of Mr. Brown from Norbs Hobby shop in Columbus.

Here is a link to the instructions for the 671S smoke unit conversion kit for the turbine:

671S - page 1
671S - page 2

I agree with Jeff, I would not convert it.
Your engine has made it for 70 years without being converted.
The shell must be irreversibly modified to convert to a heater type smoke unit.

I just caught up on reading the responses...working all day and now back home.  I apologize if I keep asking the same questions but I am not 100% clear on things.

First of all, I do not want to install a conversion kit...I like to keep things original. My 2020 has the big bulb to heat the smoke pellets and create the smoke.  But it seems that my engine is missing the flapper assembly.

So, is the flapper assembly original?

If so, why would it be missing?  I know you don't know the answer but it seems to be an odd part for someone to actually remove.

And..if it is part of the original engine...where can I get the parts?   Mr Brown mentions a flapper and a spring and then two screws. Where do I buy these parts?  And, I don't see screw holes in the base...so what do the screws go?

I really appreciate your help.

Ron

J. White,

I really like the video you posted, but that is the oddest sounding engine I have ever heard.

Maybe it is just the audio on the camera you were using , or possibly the board your track is mounted on, but I have never heard an engine make that type of sound.

Again, thanks for posting the video.

Earl

EIS posted:

J. White,

I really like the video you posted, but that is the oddest sounding engine I have ever heard.

Maybe it is just the audio on the camera you were using , or possibly the board your track is mounted on, but I have never heard an engine make that type of sound.

Again, thanks for posting the video.

Earl

Sounds just like my '46 2020.

So, is the flapper assembly original?

If so, why would it be missing?  I know you don't know the answer but it seems to be an odd part for someone to actually remove.

And..if it is part of the original engine...where can I get the parts?   Mr Brown mentions a flapper and a spring and then two screws. Where do I buy these parts?  And, I don't see screw holes in the base...so what do the screws go?

The flapper assembly would be original to the locomotive.

Why would someone remove it?:

They found the noise the flapper made annoying
The cam or pin on the back of the drive wheel that operates the flapper was damaged
The flapper was causing a bind.

The parts you need are available from Train Tender, and probably most other parts dealers.
The owner is very helpful, and can verify that you are ordering everything you need:

671-96 flapper arm assy orig LIMITED
671-115 flapper screw long reproduction
671-101 smoke cam 1946 laser repro
671-102 flapper arm spring original
???????? short flapper screw

The screws mount into the sides of the chassis, I believe the threaded holes are between the first two drive wheels (closest to the boiler front)

C.W.

I checked out the engine and I see the screw holes on the chassis...that helps.   So, I will order these parts since I want to put this back to original (maybe not original parts but original operation).  I know it is not a very expensive engine..but it is cool and it is old.

btw..the cam/pin on the back of the drive wheel looks good...so this should work when I get the parts.

thanks for your help.

To all.

I have all the parts, does anyone know how to install the parts for the flapper, spring, cam?  Or , maybe someone has pictures or a diagram on how to install.

thanks

ron

Take a look at my pictures. The shoulder screw and spring go on the left side.  There is no cam to install, the flapper up and down movement is by the front drive wheel left side a nub.

Stew

I still need a little help.  I don't know how to install the spring and the other part in my picture.  I do have the little nub on the front wheel that will drive the spring or cam to move the flapper ...but I can't figure out how to install that spring.

Do you have pictures or can refer me somewhere that shows how the spring is installed?  Also, that other part...looks black in the picture...I bought based on another person's recommendation. 

So, if anyone can show me how to install the flapper with these parts...that would be great.

I realize that most of you guys could do this , so your advice is very welcome.

Please check the pics for the parts that I have...

thanks

Ron

Ron I hope these pictures will show how things are put together. The cam goes between the locomotive frame and the flapper.

Stew...just a little more help...

I think it is all together...almost correctly.   In the picture above you can see that the flapper is set as it should..the cam is in the same place as yours..I think..

Then, the spring below is on the outside...the end of the spring with the little bend is connect in place at the front and into the notch on the flapper silver edge.

I don't know what to do with the other end of the spring.  I left it outside of the frame below so you can see it.  I am not sure where it belongs.  When I rotate the wheels, the flapper will rise..but not fall back.  I have the correct screw on that side but not sure how to position that spring to allow the flapper to return back flat before the wheels turn again pushing it up.

I appreciate your help...or anyone that has this engine

Thanks
Ron

Ron you are real close. Look at this picture and you can see the spring straight end goes in through the notch in the frame.  You also need to wind your spring 1 revolution counter clockwise so the pressure is always pushing the flapper down.

Wow. You guys really, REALLY know your stuff when it comes to Lionel.

Plus, I've said it for a long time, I'll say it again: This has to be one of the most helpful forums around.

Almost makes me want to start collecting Postwar again!!

Ok...I think I see it.  But winding the spring one extra turn will be tough.  Should I remove the wheels to have better access?

Ron

Winding the spring will be a cake walk compared to removing/resetting the wheels. The spring may take 3 hands, however.

Put the spring on a small Phillips screwdriver and wind it one rotation, keeping it on the screwdriver seat the notched end of the spring then the straight end through the frame. Then put the point of the Phillips into the screw hole for the shoulder screw into the hole in the frame and remove screwdriver.  Insert shoulder screw and secure. Easy peasey!

I never wound the spring around an extra turn. I just push down the end of the spring, and guide it into the slot.  IMHO, the spring is working with gravity, it doesn't need to have much tension.