Sorry, I may be late to the party but has Lionel stopped production of the 990 controller completely?
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It is discontinued and finding one at a dealer new is difficult to impossible. They will be producing the cab-1L but there is no command base available for it until the Base 3 appears later this year (hopefully).
It is my understanding that the Cab1L will not access all the features Legacy offers.
@Landsteiner posted:It is discontinued and finding one at a dealer new is difficult to impossible. They will be producing the cab-1L but there is no command base available for it until the Base 3 appears later this year (hopefully).
If you buy the Base-3, do you need the Cab1L to run your older TMCC &Legacy engines or can you just use the new app?
@Christopher2035 posted:If you buy the Base-3, do you need the Cab1L to run your older TMCC &Legacy engines or can you just use the new app?
The new app will control everything through the Base-3 including LionChief, LC+, LC+ 2.0, TMCC, & Legacy.
@Dynamo2112 posted:The new app will control everything through the Base-3 including LionChief, LC+, LC+ 2.0, TMCC, & Legacy.
So all that's needed is the Base-3 & the controller is optional (if you don't want to use the app).
@Christopher2035 posted:So all that's needed is the Base-3 & the controller is optional (if you don't want to use the app).
Correct. Lionel designed the Base-3 to work with the app, the Cab-1L, and the Cab-2 remotes. You will be able to have a combination of up to 10 devices connected to the Base-3 controlling trains.
@feet posted:It is my understanding that the Cab1L will not access all the features Legacy offers.
Your understanding correct, the CAB1L is a TMCC device with a small nod to Legacy control. It offers access to the Legacy quilling whistle, and it connects to the command base using 2.4ghz to be compatible with the Legacy command base or the BASE3. Many of the expanded functions of the Legacy CAB2 or the upcoming CAB3 application are not available using the CAB1L.
This REALLY hits a nerve with me! Why in the heck would Lionel continue make $1,500 to $2,000+ Legacy Engines, with no way to obtain all the features or make a remote that does not bring all the features to light. I have operated trains thru apps and hate it. I understand why they cannot continue to make the remotes, however, there has to be a better way in the interim!
My $0.02
Joe Gozzo
Wait a minute, I am also late to this party, am I to understand that Lionel is no longer making the Legacy remote? I am sorry I do not know the legacy remote product number.. What am I supposed to do if mine goes down? I am sorry I am a little confused..
@Cincytrains posted:Wait a minute, I am also late to this party, am I to understand that Lionel is no longer making the Legacy remote? I am sorry I do not know the legacy remote product number.. What am I supposed to do if mine goes down? I am sorry I am a little confused..
Due to part obsolescence, Lionel can no longer make the Legacy Remote. Moving forward, Lionel is making a new base which will support all Lionel products (Lionel Chief, Plus, Plus 2.0, TMCC, Legacy). You can control everything with the new app they are making. In the meantime, if your 990 system fails, Lionel has stated that they have enough parts on hand to continue repairs of the existing system. That should keep everyone running until the new base comes out at the end of the year.
There is another factor that needs to be considered regarding the lack of 990s vs the timeline of the Base3 and App. Dave stated that the roll out of the Base3 and App were definitely affected by the pandemic. I suspect Lionel was planning for a more seamless roll out but the timetable was thrown off by the pandemic.
Lionel or Dave would have to comment as it's only my guess based on some of the comments that Dave and Ryan made in the various web videos. It's quite possible that another run of 990s was planned but due to the recent supply chain issues especially in the electronics area that it was no longer feasible. Again this is me thinking out loud.
Also there would be folks that buy the 990 and then Lionel introduces the Base3 and they're mad because they bought a "outdated" system.
I understand the frustration but maybe those that are hording 5 or 6 remotes would be willing to sell a few if someone was looking for one.
@Trainlover160 posted:This REALLY hits a nerve with me! Why in the heck would Lionel continue make $1,500 to $2,000+ Legacy Engines, with no way to obtain all the features or make a remote that does not bring all the features to light. I have operated trains thru apps and hate it. I understand why they cannot continue to make the remotes, however, there has to be a better way in the interim!
My $0.02
Joe Gozzo
I agree. Well said.
When all is said and done, these are challenging times. We cannot fix some things that are not working well (our Emergency Department, for example). If they can provide the cab-1L for the time being, repair your cab-2 and the future is otherwise uncertain, perhaps the future will be better and we'll get through this crisis (a little tongue in cheek humor here, or gallows humor for the more depressed). I suspect MartyE is correct, that this isn't what Lionel's plan was originally.
Maybe instead of looking at what we are losing in the Cab2, we should look forward to what we could gain in additional functionality and features. I can only imagine what the app may be capable of doing in the future that a hardware based remote can't. Add a feature, add a button to the App.
I am a hardware remote guy myself but I know what these manufacturers are dealing within sourcing parts, manufacturing space, and just the people to design the stuff. I'm not happy about eventually losing my remote, because they both work fine for now and with the Base3, but I also see the writing on the wall.
@MartyE posted:I'm not happy about eventually losing my remote, because they both work fine for now and with the Base3, but I also see the writing on the wall.
But you don't have to like what's getting written on the wall! 
@MartyE posted:Maybe instead of looking at what we are losing in the Cab2, we should look forward to what we could gain in additional functionality and features. I can only imagine what the app may be capable of doing in the future that a hardware based remote can't. Add a feature, add a button to the App.
What would spike my interest is make the app with unassigned features say ten of them. Then make hardware decoders that could be placed in engines and rolling stock that any user could use to control what they chose. Make your own swinging bells, animated figures, dump cars just as you can do with DCC now.
Pete
@Norton posted:What would spike my interest is make the app with unassigned features say ten of them. Then make hardware decoders that could be placed in engines and rolling stock that any user could use to control what they chose. Make your own swinging bells, animated figures, dump cars just as you can do with DCC now.
That sounds great unless the decoders were more expensive than the engines. 
Truthfully, there would only be a handful of the overall marketplace that would be customers for something like this I suspect. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great idea, just not sure how practical it would be. 
Well, they could be inexpensive it they allowed third parties to offer the decoders. If DCC guys can do it I am sure there are plenty of three rail guys who would be capable of building their own add on features. If Lionel expects to maintain or expand their customer base they are going to have to open up their technology to other vendors rather than reducing options as they are doing now.
Pete
@Norton posted:Well, they could be inexpensive it they allowed third parties to offer the decoders. If DCC guys can do it I am sure there are plenty of three rail guys who would be capable of building their own add on features. If Lionel expects to maintain or expand their customer base they are going to have to open up their technology to other vendors rather than reducing options as they are doing now.
Pete
Pete,
I share your interest.
But after hovering around here for about the last 5 years, and getting to know a little bit about our members from their postings, I think that there are far more "operators" and "collectors" than "tinkerers" out there.
"Tinkerers" would love it; everyone else would either yawn, complain, or need help from a tinkerer to get it done (possibly an opportunity?).
Unfortunately, I don't think that there's enough opportunity of any sort, within the current business model, to make it worthwhile.
This is because, intrinsic to your other point, expanding options takes vision which is lacking. The kind of vision we saw from the mid-1990's through about 2010, from Lionel and MTH, and also to some extent the others.
A business that is not expanding, that is lacking vision, is by definition retracting. That's why the number of options is reducing.
Mike
So those that really prefer to use the 990 Legacy controller should buy up all that they can as the used market place is going to drive them up and up and up. Just like the price of some used cars are more than buying a new one.
Someone on the "bay" has a complete Legacy set base and remote with a starting price of $1000 plus $60 shipping!
I wonder if I can get $1500 to $2000 or more for mine and I'll include free shipping. Any takers?
RAY
I am in IT I do this coding and scripting crap all day. I do not want to come home and try to tinker with it to make my trains run and do there things. I want it just to work. I do not mind the occasional troubleshooting it happens but most of time it just works. I know arduino and sd cards can just lose stuff.
@Norton posted:Well, they could be inexpensive it they allowed third parties to offer the decoders. If DCC guys can do it I am sure there are plenty of three rail guys who would be capable of building their own add on features. If Lionel expects to maintain or expand their customer base they are going to have to open up their technology to other vendors rather than reducing options as they are doing now.
Pete
They wouldn't be for the reason stated. DCC is an open standard and the scale market (combination of O scale, HO and N) that use it is huge compared to 3 rail O, pure and simple. Manufacturers develop DCC decoders because there is enough of a market to get back the cost of developing them, I don't think there is in O 3 rail. Take a look at O 3 rail market, and what do you see?
1)Lot of people who don't even use command control, are conventional only. Probably not as big as it once was, but still, it is not a small number. Over time this will likely decline as those who run conventional leave and it is dominated by people who basically have been using command control all the time.
2)People who use command control, but are happy with what it offers now. Lot of people are perfectly happy with what it offers.
Which raises the question, how many people would want this kind of flexibility? Would a company build a decoder like this for maybe a couple of hundred people?
Even if Lionel "opened it up", I doubt a commercial producer would create such decoders given the numbers, it would be just too expensive. There are people on here who I could see doing this as a tinkering project, but I doubt it would lead to commercial products.
Pre-ordering the Base 3... I have a plethora of old android phones sitting around ...probably enough that each engine can have it's own controller.
Decoders would be no harder nor expensive to produce that a Super Chuffer. They are by definition not specific to the task assuming they are built for worse case applications like a smoke resistor vs an LED. If Super Chuffers were not economical to produce I doubt if John would continue making them.
In any event I don’t see the hobby expanding under the current business model. I know I am no longer a buyer of new trains.
Pete
@bigkid posted:Even if Lionel "opened it up", I doubt a commercial producer would create such decoders given the numbers, it would be just too expensive. There are people on here who I could see doing this as a tinkering project, but I doubt it would lead to commercial products.
You assume facts not in evidence. I have created a number of niche products that wouldn't be practical for large company. If I sell a couple hundred decoders, that would be a worthwhile project. Given the fact that this "decoder" would likely connect to the serial data inside the engine or accessory, much of the effort would be coding, the hardware would be really simple.
@Dennis-LaRock posted:Pre-ordering the Base 3... I have a plethora of old android phones sitting around ...probably enough that each engine can have it's own controller.
Unless the CAB3 software is more forgiving than the LC app, your old phones are likely to be worthless for this purpose. I have a Samsung Note 4 from a few years ago, and I currently have a Samsung S21 G5. The LC app works fine on the S21, no go on the Note 4. My experience is not unique, it's been reported a bunch of times here in this forum.
I've got a pile of Samsung Galaxy's 8s, 9s and 10s as well as the S21 G5s. With the family plan (4 lines) they tend to stack up like cord wood. You would think that their software would have improved to some degree... We shall see ...
The LC app didn't work on a leftover Galaxy S8+ either, but I sold that on eBay, might as well turn it into cash. I keep one phone around in case of emergencies like when I run over my current phone. 
John,
Just to add to the database of usable cell phones, I am using the app on a Samsung S7 and an Amazon Fire tablet.
Tim
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:Pete,
I share your interest.
But after hovering around here for about the last 5 years, and getting to know a little bit about our members from their postings, I think that there are far more "operators" and "collectors" than "tinkerers" out there.
"Tinkerers" would love it; everyone else would either yawn, complain, or need help from a tinkerer to get it done (possibly an opportunity?).
Unfortunately, I don't think that there's enough opportunity of any sort, within the current business model, to make it worthwhile.
This is because, intrinsic to your other point, expanding options takes vision which is lacking. The kind of vision we saw from the mid-1990's through about 2010, from Lionel and MTH, and also to some extent the others.
A business that is not expanding, that is lacking vision, is by definition retracting. That's why the number of options is reducing.
Mike
Probably a pretty fair assessment of 3-railers. The comments about opportunity, business model, and vision point to how the scale guys are way ahead of us. The NMRA established a standard for DCC - one can run any decoder-equipped engine on any system. If only 3-rail had standards...
@Shawn_Chronister posted:I am in IT I do this coding and scripting crap all day. I do not want to come home and try to tinker with it to make my trains run and do there things. I want it just to work. I do not mind the occasional troubleshooting it happens but most of time it just works. I know arduino and sd cards can just lose stuff.
I'm retired now from IT, but I have zero desire to fiddle with that stuff either. I know a scale guy who never worked in IT (retired pharmacist) and wrote his own dispatching software while he was still working full time. Amazing stuff, but I'd rather walk on hot coals.
@bigkid posted:They wouldn't be for the reason stated. DCC is an open standard and the scale market (combination of O scale, HO and N) that use it is huge compared to 3 rail O, pure and simple. Manufacturers develop DCC decoders because there is enough of a market to get back the cost of developing them, I don't think there is in O 3 rail. Take a look at O 3 rail market, and what do you see?
1)Lot of people who don't even use command control, are conventional only. Probably not as big as it once was, but still, it is not a small number. Over time this will likely decline as those who run conventional leave and it is dominated by people who basically have been using command control all the time.
2)People who use command control, but are happy with what it offers now. Lot of people are perfectly happy with what it offers.
Which raises the question, how many people would want this kind of flexibility? Would a company build a decoder like this for maybe a couple of hundred people?
Even if Lionel "opened it up", I doubt a commercial producer would create such decoders given the numbers, it would be just too expensive. There are people on here who I could see doing this as a tinkering project, but I doubt it would lead to commercial products.
I'm jealous of the scale guys and the NMRA standards. Many locomotives are available with or without a decoder (but ready to accept one). A conventional runner can buy the cheaper version and upgrade it to DCC later if desired for a hundred bucks, and it's pretty much plug-and-play. A DCC guy can take his engine to any DCC layout and run it. And if one of the DCC manufacturers goes out of business, it's not the end of the world.
I haven't shopped for a DCC system lately, but I don't hear my scale friends worrying about getting replacement equipment like we 3-railers do.
If 3-rail used DCC, it would expand the market for everyone. Unfortunately, the ship sailed regarding command control standards about 25 years ago.
What should have happened years ago is what the H O guys have. As has been stated they have a standardized system that works with everything.
Why we can't have that is anybody's guess but I suspect that ship sailed long ago. I have too much invested in O to jump ship now or I would
probably got into H O.
@Ray of sunshine posted:I wonder if I can get $1500 to $2000 or more for mine and I'll include free shipping. Any takers?
RAY
On the big auction site, there already have been. Search for 990s that have been sold.
"Why we can't have that is anybody's guess but I suspect that ship sailed long ago."
At least two decades ago. Barn door closed. Cow long gone .
I cannot state strongly enough that buying cab-2/Legacy base setups used, with no warranty, for 2-5 times the original MSRP is not a great plan. Just wait 8-12 months and almost certainly something better and much less expensive will be available, and likely appeal to almost all who are considering this. Sometimes the race isn't to the swift or bold .
In November a new #990 set sold for the kind of money I'd pay if I saw it.
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@Landsteiner posted:I cannot state strongly enough that buying cab-2/Legacy base setups used, with no warranty, for 2-5 times the original MSRP is not a great plan. Just wait 8-12 months and almost certainly something better and much less expensive will be available, and likely appeal to almost all who are considering this. Sometimes the race isn't to the swift or bold
While I don't agree with paying the absurd prices that the #990 is going for now, you're assuming facts not in evidence as far as "something better". There are no plans for "something better" than the CAB2 for people that want a physical remote. The CAB1L talking to the BASE3 is not "something better". That's not to say there might be further developments farther in the future, but it's not looking real likely from the current talking points.
So, nothing remotes due to parts obsolescence, and go to apps like MTH
But, $499 retail for Base3, no pets issues with it?
"There are no plans for "something better" than the CAB2 for people that want a physical remote."
While hope is not a plan, Lionel has shown itself to be quite responsive to consumer feedback. People said LionChief wasn't what they wanted. They wanted conventional capability. Within a few years we had LionChief +. Folks said they wanted to control LionChief and LionChief + locos with their TMCC/Legacy systems, so we got LionChief + 2.0 pretty rapidly. Finally folks said they wanted to control all their Lionel command locos with their Legacy system. Soon we will have Base 3. That history leads me to believe that if there is a demand for a more sophisticated handheld than the cab-1L, Lionel will make it. Furthermore, I think for some folks a cab-1L and Base 3, with a factory warranty, will be overall as superior choice to buying a non-warranteed Legacy system at absurd prices; a system that is on the way out in terms of parts/service, probably within the next five or ten years, give or take. So superior is a nuanced and relative term encompassing not just technology and sophistication/functions but utility and value in my view.
"So, nothing remotes due to parts obsolescence, and go to apps like MTH"
You are perhaps overlooking the Universal Remote that will control any Lionel locomotive made going forward for about $50. And the cab-1L which will talk with the forthcoming Base 3. So two remotes by my count. Just nothing high end.
