Lionel Legacy K4 Gear Box fix, Tales From Harmon Shops

@Jim Sandman posted:

Hmm.

Pat I think I have one in the junk parts box I changed out that came in for repair some time ago.  Might have to send you a pic to see if it can be saved to repair when one comes in.

The one you fixed for me ran great over the holidays.

Jim

Jim, glad to hear yours ran well, ….and yes, send your dead one to me, …..I have a test motor to verify ……

Pat

@Dennis Holler posted:

Ok, I pulled the Polar K4 apart and that intermediate gear is pretty loosey goosey.

Also looks like you have a bent eccentric rod there…

Yes several of the rods on that side and the reverese hanger were all bent on that side.  I was messing with it this afternoon after talking to Pat and realized there was a tight spot with the motor removed and I guess it was due to the bent rods and the PO had reinstalled the eccentric crank a cog or two off.  Once I straightend everything out and got the crank timed right it smoothed right out.  So I suspect the binding is what was causing it to studder in that first video,   Actually I'm surprised it even ran!

I am catching up on reading this thread from last year. I have the Legacy K4s, Polar RR and PRR, each less than an hour run time thus far. I take it the gearboxes are all the same for all Legacy K4s, such that they all need the fix as Pat described; or is it recommended to open each one and check the lateral play as Dennis did in the video? Am surmising it's the former as it appears a design issue.

@Paul Kallus posted:

I am catching up on reading this thread from last year. I have the Legacy K4s, Polar RR and PRR, each less than an hour run time thus far. I take it the gearboxes are all the same for all Legacy K4s, such that they all need the fix as Pat described; or is it recommended to open each one and check the lateral play as Dennis did in the video? Am surmising it's the former as it appears a design issue.

The fix is a cheap insurance policy Paul, ….once done, you don’t ever have to wonder. If you’ve read all the pages, you can see this is a non-invasive procedure. Some engines way worse than others, but the K4’s appear to be the worst offenders,….

Pat

Ron Tucker’s duo of K4’s hit the bench today for the gear box fix, ……lots of lateral movement on his gear set!….also note, the Big L felt Ron doesn’t deserve a full helping of grease in this engine!…..there was barely enough to coat the worm!!….good thing Ron took the proactive approach!!……she’d a been a goner in short order!!….we’ll fix all of this!!…

Pat

Yikes. That is no good now, but will be better shortly.

Pat,

The earliest Legacy k4, if it has a bad board and needs a ERR CC-M, would it be worth it to do the repairs and the CC-M?

@Ron_S posted:

Pat,

The earliest Legacy k4, if it has a bad board and needs a ERR CC-M, would it be worth it to do the repairs and the CC-M?

I’d imagine that would boil down to dollars & sense, ……if someone was totally in love with it, and wanted it to live again, then sure, it would be worth it, ……they are good looking models, albeit a Pennsy, ……😉

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

….also note, the Big L felt Ron doesn’t deserve a full helping of grease in this engine!…..there was barely enough to coat the worm!!….g

Pat

Slight drift here.

I think you'd have to go back to tmcc era stuff to find factory grease in a Lionel gearbox. Even then , it's probably just a blob on the side of the gearbox that doesn't touch the gears.

Just as a warning to anyone who reads this. Lionel diesels are the biggest offenders, and they're obviously more work to get inside the gearbox to add grease. Its a must however.

I'm suprised we aren't seen Lionel diesel gearbox failures from the lack of adequate lube.

@Ron_S posted:

Pat,

The earliest Legacy k4, if it has a bad board and needs a ERR CC-M, would it be worth it to do the repairs and the CC-M?

If this is a first generation Legacy engine then a Cruise M isn’t going to fix it. You would need to either replace it with a full RCMC and Railsounds lite or go back to ERR TMCC. $$$$$$$

Pete

@Ron_S posted:

The earliest Legacy k4, if it has a bad board and needs a ERR CC-M, would it be worth it to do the repairs and the CC-M?

The CC-M won't work with Legacy, you'll have to downgrade to TMCC.

I see Pete slipped in just ahead with the same comment.

@RickO posted:

Slight drift here.

I think you'd have to go back to tmcc era stuff to find factory grease in a Lionel gearbox. Even then , it's probably just a blob on the side of the gearbox that doesn't touch the gears.

Just as a warning to anyone who reads this. Lionel diesels are the biggest offenders, and they're obviously more work to get inside the gearbox to add grease. Its a must however.

I'm suprised we aren't seen Lionel diesel gearbox failures from the lack of adequate lube.

Not a drift at all Rick, ….attention needs to be brought to the matter!…..the grease they’re using is pretty poor quality IMO, and doesn’t do the job when they’re is plenty in there, …..in the matter of the diesels, I’ve made grease ports on my son’s puzzle truck diesels, …..if you’ve taken apart one, that’s enough to last you a lifetime…….if folks run their equipment like we do, ( we put our stuff to work ) they need to pay attention to preventative maintenance

Pat

Thanks All,

After I got a chuckle from Pat's "they are good looking models, albeit a Pennsy, ……😉"  , and read the comments from Pete and John, I let him know to keep running it conventionally until it became a shelf queen.

BTW Pat, As a west coaster I tend to lump anything East of the Mississippi as "Albeit a ........"

Do the visionline gs series engines have the gearbox shifting issue?  

@justin p posted:

Do the visionline gs series engines have the gearbox shifting issue?  

No, the GS series has a rear mounted motor, and therefore, it will have the large black plastic bushing in the gear box. ….( I’ve been inside one, so I know ) 😁

Pat

... and I think I know which Lionel Visionline GS you are talking about

@ryoung3 posted:

... and I think I know which Lionel Visionline GS you are talking about

Give the man a cigar! ….☺️

Pat

"Oh Happy Day" when my Orange girl got a maintenance slot in Harmon Yards!

Pat asked me to add this additional Legacy K4s problem and solution to the thread.

Legacy K4s pickup roller upgrade

I started another thread to raise the issue I was having with my Legacy K4s stalling on Atlas #5 turnouts. The cause is the pickup rollers are spaced too close together causing loss of rail contact when moving through larger turnouts.    Since it has an IR wireless tether, there is no power sharing between the locomotive and tender.  The distance between the 2 rollers on the locomotive is short 2 7/8".  The Atlas #5 turnouts have a gap in the center rail of approximately 3 1/2".  

This type of problem has been solved in various ways:
1.  Add a power tether between the locomotive and the tender
2.  Add a 3rd pickup roller to the locomotive
3.  Install Atlas Atlas 6924 Non-Derailing O Gauge Switch Relay Circuit Board to power the points

I didn't really like options 1 and 3, and for option 2, a 3rd pickup would have to be added to the pilot or trailing truck.  Can that even be done without causing the truck to derail?

I found another solution:  install longer pickup rollers.  Fortunately, there is room swap out longer rollers to bridge the gap.  

Here are the 3 pickup rollers I was working with.  Top to bottom they are from:
Legacy K4s (stock pickup)
RailKing Hiawatha Hudson (MTH BD0000005)
Lionel Scale Hiawatha Atlantic (Lionel cs-6308094150-p)

The first 2 are interchangeable, the longer one on the bottom requires that you also replace the insulator,

Install the medium length pickup roller MTH BD0000005 in the fore position.  It should fit the existing insulator.
Install the long Lionel pickup roller SKU: cs-6308094150-p and its insulator SKU: cs-6101107335-p in the aft position.  In order to fit, you need to trim the small tab on the insulator as shown here.  I carefully split it with a #11 blade:

Here is the end result crawling in speed step 1 over back to back Atlas #5 turnouts.  FYI - This locomotive has also had the Harmon Shops gearbox shim and driver bevel upgrades.

Bob

Edit:  I mistakenly reported the Lionel pickups and insulators are sold in pairs.  I was surprised when I received my order.  They are actually sold singly and way overpriced ($10 for pickup, $1.10 for the insulator).  Correction made.  

@RRDOC

Thanks for popping that up. I think I may have seen the first reply but it disappeared in my inbox as sometimes things tend to do.

@tf4k4 posted:

Glad I checked the forms for this engine. I got one at a really good price and wondered why. Opened it up and gearbox has the issue listed. Thankfully the gears are not destroyed. I’m new when it comes to working with brass. I’ve got plenty of bar stock, but any recommendations on how I can go about making the bushing? Please and thank you

Study the picture of the part I made on page 1. The bushing is a necessary evil. The gear does not have a protrusion on it down on its axle shaft. The purpose of the bushing on the brass stock locating arm is to reduce as much surface drag as possible. Without a bushing, the brass stock locating arm would act like a very effective brake shoe. Also, read the part where I found no consistencies from one engine to the other, and each one is a case study into each its own.

Pat