Lionel o22 Right-Hand Switch issue with two trains

mjammer posted:

(1) I have a polar express engine from the 6-31960 set that stalls with my o22 right hand switch track. The engine goes into neutral about half-way through the switch's turnout. I have a second right-hand switch track on my layout and the engine runs fine through it all the time.

 

Do you have a voltmeter?  If so, set it to measure AC voltage and try measuring between the center and outside rails in each portion of the switch.  This will help to isolate which part of the switch is losing power and thus cycling the E-Unit into neutral.

If you turn off the E-Unit, does the engine proceed through the switch normally?

I do have a multi-meter. I should be able to measure VAC with it. I will try that tonight and see the results. I'll keep you informed. That is exactly what is happening, the engine goes into neutral. With my MTH Z1000 in use, if I press the direction button, the train goes in reverse. So I understand this correctly, pressing the direction button interrupts power temporarily until you release the button? That makes the train leave the forward state and go into neutral?

It's been a while since I opened up an O 22, but you might want to check the connecting straps. They sometimes split and you lose continuity through the turnout. If split they have to be patched with solder. Good luck.

As Tom alluded to above, I suspect you have a broken solder joint on one of the metal power buss bars underneath the turnout base. Remove the bottom cover from the turnout and it should be fairly obvious if a solder joint has broken with age. Re-solder it and your power issue should disappear.

As far as your MTH steamer with a derailing pilot truck, it may be out of gauge OR the frog in the turnout may be worn enough to allow derailing of the pony truck. Res the engine slowly through the turnout and observe exactly what is happening; that should give you a clue to what is causing the derailments.

D&H 65 posted:

As Tom alluded to above, I suspect you have a broken solder joint on one of the metal power buss bars underneath the turnout base. Remove the bottom cover from the turnout and it should be fairly obvious if a solder joint has broken with age. Re-solder it and your power issue should disappear.

As far as your MTH steamer with a derailing pilot truck, it may be out of gauge OR the frog in the turnout may be worn enough to allow derailing of the pony truck. Res the engine slowly through the turnout and observe exactly what is happening; that should give you a clue to what is causing the derailments.

D&H 65, I have ran the MTH as slow as possible with the z1000 transformer. I see the front wheels (pilot truck) quickly lift a little bit just as it is derailing. Something within the switch track is making it hop up then derail.But nothing obviously is showing me this. I have another MTH engine with four front wheels and it runs across the switch track with no problems.

mjammer posted:

D&H 65 posted:

As Tom alluded to above, I suspect you have a broken solder joint on one of the metal power buss bars underneath the turnout base. Remove the bottom cover from the turnout and it should be fairly obvious if a solder joint has broken with age. Re-solder it and your power issue should disappear.

As far as your MTH steamer with a derailing pilot truck, it may be out of gauge OR the frog in the turnout may be worn enough to allow derailing of the pony truck. Res the engine slowly through the turnout and observe exactly what is happening; that should give you a clue to what is causing the derailments.

D&H 65, I have ran the MTH as slow as possible with the z1000 transformer. I see the front wheels (pilot truck) quickly lift a little bit just as it is derailing. Something within the switch track is making it hop up then derail.But nothing obviously is showing me this. I have another MTH engine with four front wheels and it runs across the switch track with no problems.

Run it by pushing it with your hand over the switch slowly forwards and backwards and you should feel when it "hops" - then inspect that part of the switch (and on the truck itself) very closely. 

JTrains posted:

mjammer posted:

D&H 65 posted:

As Tom alluded to above, I suspect you have a broken solder joint on one of the metal power buss bars underneath the turnout base. Remove the bottom cover from the turnout and it should be fairly obvious if a solder joint has broken with age. Re-solder it and your power issue should disappear.

As far as your MTH steamer with a derailing pilot truck, it may be out of gauge OR the frog in the turnout may be worn enough to allow derailing of the pony truck. Res the engine slowly through the turnout and observe exactly what is happening; that should give you a clue to what is causing the derailments.

D&H 65, I have ran the MTH as slow as possible with the z1000 transformer. I see the front wheels (pilot truck) quickly lift a little bit just as it is derailing. Something within the switch track is making it hop up then derail.But nothing obviously is showing me this. I have another MTH engine with four front wheels and it runs across the switch track with no problems.

Run it by pushing it with your hand over the switch slowly forwards and backwards and you should feel when it "hops" - then inspect that part of the switch (and on the truck itself) very closely. 

Running with my hands, i see the left front truck wheel derail to its right after the wheel leaves the switche's frog (the piece that moves from straight and turnout). But i do not see a gap where the wheel could fall out and derail.

As for the polar express going into neutral. I took apart the switch, cleaned, found a hair of straight copper in there that i removed. Put the switch back. It is working!!

mjammer posted:

JTrains posted:

mjammer posted:

D&H 65 posted:

As Tom alluded to above, I suspect you have a broken solder joint on one of the metal power buss bars underneath the turnout base. Remove the bottom cover from the turnout and it should be fairly obvious if a solder joint has broken with age. Re-solder it and your power issue should disappear.

As far as your MTH steamer with a derailing pilot truck, it may be out of gauge OR the frog in the turnout may be worn enough to allow derailing of the pony truck. Res the engine slowly through the turnout and observe exactly what is happening; that should give you a clue to what is causing the derailments.

D&H 65, I have ran the MTH as slow as possible with the z1000 transformer. I see the front wheels (pilot truck) quickly lift a little bit just as it is derailing. Something within the switch track is making it hop up then derail.But nothing obviously is showing me this. I have another MTH engine with four front wheels and it runs across the switch track with no problems.

Run it by pushing it with your hand over the switch slowly forwards and backwards and you should feel when it "hops" - then inspect that part of the switch (and on the truck itself) very closely. 

Running with my hands, i see the left front truck wheel derail to its right after the wheel leaves the switche's frog (the piece that moves from straight and turnout). But i do not see a gap where the wheel could fall out and derail.

 

As for the polar express going into neutral. I took apart the switch, cleaned, found a hair of straight copper in there that i removed. Put the switch back. It is working!!

A little while ago i removed the two wheel truck from the mth. Rolled the truck by hand and notice more space side to side where it derails at the rhs swivel rail. You notice how the outside rail has a curved cut? That is giving the space to derail. Later ill try to put the truck back on and see what happens. Maybe the truck needs a moification or something else to avoid derailing?

A few more pictures, the third one you can see the front wheel is up off of the rail. In my opinion, it has to be somethinf with the engines front truck. But i have no idea why.

I have a quick video too, but not sure the forums allow videos.

Here is the video. Watch the wheel bounce up at the end of the rhs. Fyi, this happens every time, not sometimes. And, my other engines do not have this problem.

I wrote a long thread about restoring 022 & 711 Lionel switches.  Use Google to find it.  022/711 switch operating pblms.  You need to go through all your 022 switches to make sure they are right.  I have about 150 022 switches and 32 711 switches.  A few days ago, I put together a small layout with four 022 switches.  The switches were restored about 8 years ago, and worked perfectly.  

servoguy1 posted:

I wrote a long thread about restoring 022 & 711 Lionel switches.  Use Google to find it.  022/711 switch operating pblms.  You need to go through all your 022 switches to make sure they are right.  I have about 150 022 switches and 32 711 switches.  A few days ago, I put together a small layout with four 022 switches.  The switches were restored about 8 years ago, and worked perfectly.  

I believe i looked at your post in the past servoguy. To jump ahead, the wheels popping off of the track as seen in my video. Something in particular causing it?

servoguy1 posted:

I wrote a long thread about restoring 022 & 711 Lionel switches.  Use Google to find it.  022/711 switch operating pblms.  You need to go through all your 022 switches to make sure they are right.  I have about 150 022 switches and 32 711 switches.  A few days ago, I put together a small layout with four 022 switches.  The switches were restored about 8 years ago, and worked perfectly.  

Servoguy, referring to your post on http://cs.trains.com/ctt/f/95/...2829815.aspx#2829815. It only references mechanical fix/restoration on the bottom of the o22 switches. This information unfortunately does not help with my derailing issue as seen in the video I posted on 12/27/16. My issue is more related to the outside rail within the right-hand switch of the pivoting rail or the frog. Like I mentioned before taking off the front truck and rolling it manually. There is more space side-to-side when the wheels have approached the pivoting rails. Means more space for a problem. Since my other three locomotives run across it perfectly, it must be something with the truck on the mth 30-1164 pushing it to it's right or something.

Demo of the mth 30-1164 truck wheels

Turn the switch does the curved rail tuck nicely in the cutout or is there a gap?  Pushing it by hand won't show you where the problem is, your hand moves to much. 

Put the truck on the engine.  Temporarily tape a sinker or a couple pennies on the pilot truck.  Does it work?  Might need a stronger spring on the pilot truck.

Gene Anstine

Mjameer: Thanks for the videos-most helpful. Two thoughts;

1) Have you measured the distance between the two wheels on the offending pilot truck and compared that dimension to other trucks that don't derail? I wonder if the offending trucks wheel set is out of gauge too wide.... (measure them back-to-back of the flange face). The various train importers don't seem to have a high quality production metric for gauging their wheel sets.

2) On the cut-out in the straight rail section, is there a burr or sharp edge? You might be able to dress it with a file for a smoother transition. I'd go this route only if the wheels set checks OK for gauge issues.

D&H 65 posted:

Mjameer: Thanks for the videos-most helpful. Two thoughts;

1) Have you measured the distance between the two wheels on the offending pilot truck and compared that dimension to other trucks that don't derail? I wonder if the offending trucks wheel set is out of gauge too wide.... (measure them back-to-back of the flange face). The various train importers don't seem to have a high quality production metric for gauging their wheel sets.

2) On the cut-out in the straight rail section, is there a burr or sharp edge? You might be able to dress it with a file for a smoother transition. I'd go this route only if the wheels set checks OK for gauge issues.

1. Both trucks measure one and a half inches side to side. Bty, both trucks are from mth engines, protosound2.

2. The switch track's cut looks clean to me, no burr left behind. See pics.

grfd59 posted:

Turn the switch does the curved rail tuck nicely in the cutout or is there a gap?  Pushing it by hand won't show you where the problem is, your hand moves to much. 

Put the truck on the engine.  Temporarily tape a sinker or a couple pennies on the pilot truck.  Does it work?  Might need a stronger spring on the pilot truck.

 

Gene Anstine

See pics, i do not notice a gap. But verify with your opinion.

The penny option is tougher than it sounds. Consider myself bypassing this one. Sorry. Are springs for the wheels easy to come by?

By the way, i am running the engine without the truck wheels fine. But the front of the engine does not look authentic, looks as though something is missing.

   I'd like to see this, and maybe help, but fyi; If video and sometimes pictures are not inserted into the post, they can't be viewed on many hand held devices.

Adriatic posted:

   I'd like to see this, and maybe help, but fyi; If video and sometimes pictures are not inserted into the post, they can't be viewed on many hand held devices.

So you are unable to view any of my attachments?