Lionel Visionline Niagara Arriving

Scrapiron Scher posted:

Gorgeous locomotive, EZMike, but you run your locomotives slower than Scrapiron Scher.

Thanks... only for videos. 

Mike

Anybody compare the tooling on this versus the century club model? The tender looks different in the back to my eye

20centuryhudson posted:

Anybody compare the tooling on this versus the century club model? The tender looks different in the back to my eye

All of the pictures I have seen, they are identical save the cab apron which is thicker. It was my understanding the new one would be assembled differently, perhaps a one piece boiler vs two piece. I will find out for sure after York when mine arrives.

Pete

Annoying to me that the valve oil linkage is missing

Got home yesterday, unboxed it, put it on our 7' test track, fired it up and - the new Vision Niagara is everything I'd hoped for .... and less:  

Less drama.  The past few Lionel locomotives I've purchased have had defects and jerky operation.  Resulting in unhappy children, returns to Lionel, and weeks waiting for what we ordered to actually be "right."  This brute, however, seems to have nice smooth operation.  We've come to expect the drama and it was so nice when this thing fired up and seems to be working as it should right out of the box. Fundamentally, this was the biggest checkmark for us. 

Less expensive.  Kind of a backhanded compliment, but I expected the quality of functions to be lower given this 4-8-4 was "only" around $1,500 (compared to some of the other recent VL steamer prices), but all the smoke functions not only work well, but they seem to have improved. Rather than the wisps of smoke I've come to expect from Lionel (compared to MTH), this thing has a prodigious smoke output.  The sound package is incredible. A horn and whistle too - what?! And the paint and assembly seems state of the art. 

Less detail. Well, this could just be me, but the description says a "high level of detail."  While I'm not in the same galaxy as rivet counters, to my untrained, uneducated eye, the details (hoses, pipes, doo dads) on the boiler seem sort of spartan?  Having said that, it has clean beautiful lines, there are nice hand painted details, the pop off valves and builders plate are all crisply done, etc. So, for what it provides, it has delivered very well.  

"Less detail. Well, this could just be me, but the description says a "high level of detail."  While I'm not in the same galaxy as rivet counters, to my untrained, uneducated eye, the details (hoses, pipes, doo dads) on the boiler seem sort of spartan?"  

I don't mean to sound like a grumpy old man (too late), but does anyone ever look at photos of the real locomotives?

Indeed, why would one even buy the model unless one has seen the real thing, or its image?

The Niagara, the definition of the modern steam locomotive, had very few "doo dads" ("is that an Elesco or Worthington doo dad "?) visible on it. The thing was virtually streamstyled, if not streamlined, enhanced by the smoke lifters. But it was not either. It was modern engineering, done with some esthetic sense*, and, had steam survived, more and more locomotives would have looked like it.

It was industrial sleek and slick, and kept most of its "doo dads" in its pants.

(*The original 1920's J1 Hudson specs from management instructed the designer - Kiefer, same as the Niagara's - to give the new locomotive "pleasing proportions", roughly quoted.) 

D500 posted:

"Less detail. Well, this could just be me, but the description says a "high level of detail."  While I'm not in the same galaxy as rivet counters, to my untrained, uneducated eye, the details (hoses, pipes, doo dads) on the boiler seem sort of spartan?"  

I don't mean to sound like a grumpy old man (too late), but does anyone ever look at photos of the real locomotives?

Indeed, why would one even buy the model unless one has seen the real thing, or its image?

The Niagara, the definition of the modern steam locomotive, had very few "doo dads" ("is that an Elesco or Worthington doo dad "?) visible on it. The thing was virtually streamstyled, if not streamlined, enhanced by the smoke lifters. But it was not either. It was modern engineering, done with some esthetic sense*, and, had steam survived, more and more locomotives would have looked like it.

It was industrial sleek and slick, and kept most of its "doo dads" in its pants.

(*The original 1920's J1 Hudson specs from management instructed the designer - Kiefer, same as the Niagara's - to give the new locomotive "pleasing proportions", roughly quoted.) 

That's a good point, and I had little knowledge on the facts you raised, so thanks for this.  In terms of the only thing you've focused on from my entire post - did I look at the real thing - I did. Here's one of the images I found before ordering.  To my untrained eye, it looks like it has a a good amount more external doo dads than the the "high level of detail" Vision version.  Again, not a deal breaker for me by any stretch, as I don't buy these things for rivets but rather for play value, and this one is a winner in that regard ... 

PJB posted:

 

That's a good point, and I had little knowledge on the facts you raised, so thanks for this.  In terms of the only thing you've focused on from my entire post - did I look at the real thing - I did. Here's one of the images I found before ordering.  To my untrained eye, it looks like it has a a good amount more external doo dads than the the "high level of detail" Vision version.  Again, not a deal breaker for me by any stretch, as I don't buy these things for rivers but rather for operating play value, and this one is a winner in that regard ... 

 

Thats a Mohawk, not a Niagara. MTH did some nice versions of those.

Pete

PJB , Thats a Mohawk in that photo you posted. This is a Niagara, to D500's point, the boiler is much "cleaner".

Wow - did anyone count the number of rivets?   i thought this was model railroading for fun and being as prototypical as possible.  the models are to be enjoyed and run - including nice features etc  can any model train look "exactly" as an old photograph?  Everyone can have their opinion and comments - thanks for all - but you dont need to respond to this post

RickO posted:

PJB , Thats a Mohawk in that photo you posted. This is a Niagara, to D500's point, the boiler is much "cleaner".

Direct from Wikipedia

"The Niagaras did not have steam domes, as did most steam locomotives, which resulted in a smooth contour along the top of the boiler. A perforated pipe collected steam instead. This was necessary because of the lower loading gauge of the New York Central (15 ft 2 in versus 16 ft 2 in (4.93 m) for other American railroads)."

J611: This isn't a post to start a fight, just to clarify what you were referring to above as "missing lubricator linkage". I've attached a photo of mine to ask if that's the linkage you're referring to?

Yep, that's it.

Trainlover9943 posted:

My uncles showed up yesterday. 

Nice color match passenger cars.  What are they?  I need a set for my gray one coming.

RickO posted:

PJB , Thats a Mohawk in that photo you posted. This is a Niagara, to D500's point, the boiler is much "cleaner".

RickO posted:

PJB , Thats a Mohawk in that photo you posted. This is a Niagara, to D500's point, the boiler is much "cleaner".

Hey Pete and RickO -  thanks!  

Just confirms what I said - I'm a novice with an uneducated eye.  I had googled the NYC Niagara many months ago and didn't even realize the image I posted was a Mohawk. I now see that the Vision model is quite a good representation of the real Niagara.  

But again, the thesis of my earlier post was that this Vision offering, at least to me, is a total winner.  It seems this was totally lost on some folks here (certainly NOT you two gents) who live only to complain, criticize, and debate.  

Enjoy the rest of the weekend everyone. 

Bryant Dunivan 111417 posted:

Trainlover9943 posted:

My uncles showed up yesterday. 

Nice color match passenger cars.  What are they?  I need a set for my gray one coming.

Mth Premier cars. 1938 20th century limited. Don't match perfectly but close enough for me. 

Can’t wait to hook mine up to my 12 car 1938 GGD 20 Century set— not prototypical but what the heck!

20centuryhudson posted:

Can’t wait to hook mine up to my 12 car 1938 GGD 20 Century set— not prototypical but what the heck!

Please do a video when you do, would love to see that! Mine is in the mail, when it arrives the GGD 8 car Empire State express with kitbashed station sounds diner will be ready! 

PJB posted:

Hey Pete and RickO -  thanks!  

Just confirms what I said - I'm a novice with an uneducated eye.  I had googled the NYC Niagara many months ago and didn't even realize the image I posted was a Mohawk. I now see that the Vision model is quite a good representation of the real Niagara.  

But again, the thesis of my earlier post was that this Vision offering, at least to me, is a total winner.  It seems this was totally lost on some folks here (certainly NOT you two gents) who live only to complain, criticize, and debate.  

Enjoy the rest of the weekend everyone. 

PBJ,
It seems to me that these folks were only trying to educate you and show you the error in your research. When your school teachers corrected you, did you say that they also "live only to complain, criticize, and debate"?

Anybody test out the force coupler? Who here coupled 100 cars on then went upgrade........

Dj'sOgaugetrains posted:

Anybody test out the force coupler? Who here coupled 100 cars on then went upgrade........

I did .... well, sort of.  I mentioned that I'm relegated to a 7' test track (we're between layouts) on my floor.  Backed up the Niagara a bit too far and the tender ended up with about 1/3 of it's back end off the rails, with rear wheels hanging off. Didn't notice it and when I tried to move forward the beast wouldn't move, but the sounds got deeper and more intense.  

Are the cab gauges backlit?Mine should be arriving any day.Enjoying the videos for now.

Excellent Vision Line!!

Anyone know if all the road numbers come with dual headlights???

RickM46 posted:

Excellent Vision Line!!

Anyone know if all the road numbers come with dual headlights???

Road no. 6005 comes with a single beam headlight.

TrainMan1225 posted:

RickM46 posted:

Excellent Vision Line!!

Anyone know if all the road numbers come with dual headlights???

Road no. 6005 comes with a single beam headlight.

Thanks TrainMan, I like the single beam better.

Got mine last week and was finally able to run it today. I absolutely love it! Lionel did a perfect job on this one. All smoke units work perfectly, which I was really blown away that they did. I truly expected at least one of them to not work properly. Stunning engine to say the least. In fact I like it so much that I am going to buy the dual headlight version as well. 

Should be getting my Gray Niagara this week.  While at York I went on a mission to find out who might produce 21st Century Limited passenger cars to match this engine.  I was possibly going start with the RPO/Baggage cars in 2018 Lionel catalog to start in hopes of a release of passenger, sleepers, and etc... to be produced in the future.

I spoke to Mr. Kunkel in the booth and asked about plans for the additional set.  He was a little unclear with their intentions.  When I asked if there were any plans for a 20th Century Limited set in the future, he responded that it was a real possibility that we could see these in about 2 years.  Enough to agree with me that I should not purchase the cars in the 2018 catalog.  MTH booth personnel told me they were not even considering it at this time.  Not gospel, just what I was told at the show. 

I asked Ryan Kunkel about a Vision set of milk cars to put behind the Niagara. He said he would just like to get the tooling out of Romania! He also stated they may have to re-tool for them.

Romania???  I thought China was it for Lionel (except for some cars produced in N.C.)

Are there any professional "restoration" guys out there who could repaint the smoke box and boiler front black or dark graphite, and lighten the rods, and/or remove the white walls. I wouldn't want it weathered, still want to keep the nice crisp newness of the locomotive number board and oval.  Any recommendations?

D&H 65 posted:

J611: This isn't a post to start a fight, just to clarify what you were referring to above as "missing lubricator linkage". I've attached a photo of mine to ask if that's the linkage you're referring to?

Thanks, I must have missed it in the first set of photos. Glad to see they included it on this model. Both MTH and Lionel have had a bad habit of sometimes including this detail and sometimes not including it. The running gear on these locomotives is the most interesting area of detail to me. 

My 6013 arrived today. Just about flawless in every way. All smoke units work and sounds are impressive. The smoke hatch on the tender was a bit recalcitrant and took some prying but I eventually moved it free. Also straightened the drawbar which was hanging too low to the center rail. 

After reading that Megastream is not recommended I am surprised Lionel smoke fluid was not included. Its on my shopping list now.

Dave, Ryan, you guys did good on this one. Keep it up.

Pete

Norton: I also had to straighten my tender drawbar from the "as manufactured" configuration. Mine was so low, the locomotive drawbar tip would just clear the center rail moving forward and would short to the center rail at times in a backing movement.

NYC Fan posted:

Are there any professional "restoration" guys out there who could repaint the smoke box and boiler front black or dark graphite, and lighten the rods, and/or remove the white walls. I wouldn't want it weathered, still want to keep the nice crisp newness of the locomotive number board and oval.  Any recommendations?

I plan to do those things myself, eventually. I will just enjoy it as it is for a while.

The rods may be able to be tin plated but I got a set from the CCII Niagara I will use and save the blackened ones for the next guy. I also have allen drive screws I will use to replace the phillips screws on the rods. I plan to use them on the CCII Niagara first and will post pics when done.

D&H, I now have a checklist I go through on new engines including the drawbar and eccentrics. Too many times the eccentrics are loose, bind on the first couple of turns and bend the valve gear.

Pete

Norton, glad to hear the Niagara turned out OK.

Can you tell us where you got the allen drive screws and what their size spec is?

I ordered stainless flatheads from McMaster Carr. They are 2.5mm x 20mm long. I had to cut them to length, 14 and 17mm respectively. I intend to radius the head to look more like the prototype. An oval head screw would have been ideal but I couldn't find those in 2.5 mm.

Here is the prototype. Its purely subjective what fastener will look better. This would be difficult to duplicate exactly.

Pete

Norton, I was also looking into redoing the screws.  Exactly which screws did you buy, hex head.  Does one the the screws require a shoulder?  I would be interested in seeing how you did it, and l’m sure it will look great. 

John, Since I intend to do the CCII Niagara first I got some flathead screws but instead of phillips drive, they have an allen drive, ie female hex.

The are part number 93395A514 from McMaster. The CCII uses 14 and 17 mm long  2.5 mm diameter screws on drivers 1, 3, and 4. Not sure what they used on the eccentric yet.

As for the Vision Niagara I assume the screws are the same but have not verified that yet.

The CCII screws don't have a shoulder, rather Lionel used an an insert as a bearing surface. The screws simply hold everything in place.

Here is  a bushing and reason why the screws don't require a shoulder.

Hopefully this weekend I will have some pictures. 

I am already thinking of another mod to make them look closer to the prototype.

Pete

Norton - Screws generally don't bother me as I'm a prototype ignoramus and we buy these things for play value. But the Phillip's head screws do look a little hokey to me.  If the process is as simple as unscrewing the Phillip's head screws and screwing in the ones you've suggested, I might just buy a bunch of these screws, wait for the warranty to expire and replace them.  Thanks very much for the info and I will look forward to your updates over the weekend. 

I am still tossing around ideas. Its apparent it would be near impossible to make a fastener that looks like those bearing retainers but it may be possible to simply print an image of them on a vinyl stick on that could be placed on any flat head screw. Then if the wheel had to be removed for some reason, just peal off the decal.

In the words of another NYC modeler, "Sweat the details".

Pete