MartyE posted:Other than that if you're not happy return it.
I hate that response! Lionel says the exact same crap... quote unquote.
Return it to who? Its now a used engine. So screw your dealer for Lionel's problem??
I don't think so.
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Laidoffsick posted:MartyE posted:Other than that if you're not happy return it.
I hate that response! Lionel says the exact same crap... quote unquote.
Return it to who? Its now a used engine. So screw your dealer for Lionel's problem??
I don't think so.
I say return it. You want stuck with an engine you're unhappy with maybe he should send it to you for a refund. Why should he be unhappy with it? If the dealer doesn't want it back or gets "stuck" with it then let them deal with Lionel.
Sorry you hate that response but I'd hate to have an engine I'm not happy with. So I think so. People return things all the time for a replacement or refund. It's all part of business.
WTF would he send it to me? Or WTF would I give him a refund. I didn't make it or sell it.
A lot of dealers are NOT going to take back a used engine. We have already read that many times on this forum. The dealer refers you to Lionel Service for repair.
Then Lionel says if you're not happy.... return it. Thats their chickens**t way of slapping their customers in the face.
Breaking news; the Class A Lionmaster is Legacy. Look at the catalog folks; the intro to Legacy steam in the catalog says from page xx to page 53 is Legacy. The Class A Lionmaster is on page 53. I'm just so pssed about my 0-8-0 that I cannot stop posting about this. Today, I sent my complaint via email to Lionel, but I expect it will fall on deaf ears. Lionel's response will probably be indifference. Again, I say I am done with Lionel if they do not correct this issue.
I am really surprised that there are so few complaints about this on this forum.
Laidoffsick posted:A lot of dealers are NOT going to take back a used engine. We have already read that many times on this forum. The dealer refers you to Lionel Service for repair.
Then Lionel says if you're not happy.... return it.
Then send it to Lionel and get the refund from them. We know they do it because we read that on the forum too.
No you didn't make it or sell it to him. That's where you return things you're not happy with. The people that made it or sold it.
Oman posted:. Again, I say I am done with Lionel if they do not correct this issue.
I am really surprised that there are so few complaints about this on this forum.
Well I think you'll be done with Lionel because they can't fix what's not broke in their eyes on the 0-8-0. They used a BEMF speed control ON THE 0-8-0. One that is not fully compatible with encoder based control and has a different speed curve. The only thing they can do is have you return it because it working as they expect it to. Not necessarily the way we would expect it to.
Personally I think it stinks but I can see that there will most likely not be a "fix" for that issue.
Well, I hope that Lionel will take it back, but I doubt it. They will probably tell me to return it to my dealer. My dealer ordered it for me as a BTO. Why should he get stuck with it?
Oman posted:Well, I hope that Lionel will take it back, but I doubt it. They will probably tell me to return it to my dealer. My dealer ordered it for me as a BTO. Why should he get stuck with it?
Why wouldn't he return it to Lionel? Is there a dealer here that can tell me why it couldn't be returned to Lionel if a customer returns it defective or not as advertised? I'm curious because I'd hate to be in business if the dealer gets stuck with all the duds. Makes me wonder how many car dealers have a garage full of lemons.
I guess I could be totally backwards on this but if I bought an item that is defective or not as advertised I'm getting my money back from someone. I work to hard for it.
I agree with you Keith 100%. I don't recall seeing "BEMF" in ANY of the Lionel Catalogs. I do recall them advertising and marketing Legacy engines.
I have yet to find a dealer with a "Costco" type of return policy.
Laidoffsick posted:I agree with you Keith 100%. I don't recall seeing "BEMF" in ANY of the Lionel Catalogs. I do recall them advertising and marketing Legacy engines.
I have yet to find a dealer with a "Costco" type of return policy.
That's because they didn't. That is primarily the issue I think most people have. Had they know there was a difference most people could have made an educated decision. Lionel should have spelled that out from the get go.
Legacy is more than just speed control. So they can call them Legacy. But they should have 100% made the difference known.
Lionel will refund your money just call them and quit the crying. I understand it's not what you wanted they will refund your money.
We are grown men and Ladies playing with toy trains let's play nice and don't make matters worse.
The dealer I bought from says they have a 30 day return policy hopefully they'll take it back with the defects.
Let me also make this clear I would like to keep the engine, I don't want to give it back I don't want to have them process a refund, it would be nice if they would figure out why the heck my engine and other people's locos headlights have gone out including stalling out on occasion.
It's smokes great sounds great it looks great I can't complain about anything else. I just wished they didn't use that dumb BEMF board. Hopefully they can direct me in the right direction to get my engine fixed and get everybody else's engines that are defected.
If Lionel is saying that the proper return procedure is to return it to the dealer then I would return it to the dealer. They will have to sort it out between them. I surely wouldn't feel guilty. You paid for a loco with the full compliment of Legacy features and it does not have them.
Tim
I imagine the headlight issue should be a fairly routine fix. Most of the issues I think folks are having, rightfully so, is the incompatibility with the standard Legacy encoder speed curve. Please keep us informed.
I certainly wouldn't have you return just for a headlight fix but since many are unhappy with the speed control issue they would be the ones I'd advise to return them especially if they were planning to MU the engine. They opened one of these the other day at the LHS and it sounded wonderful, smoked great, and whistle steam was impressive. Unfortunately the rear set of drivers were not moving so back it went.
Not sure why this particular locomotive is a revelation to folks, in terms of Lionel quality. I am not sure what the reason is -- I have speculated that a lot of the issues come from shipping heavy steam locomotives -- but my experience with Lionel (as well as WBB post Williams) and MTH is that the new steam locomotives can be trouble prone when new. The good news is that you can return it and get it fixed or get a refund. (I do find it amusing how some here think it is OK to get defective merchandise because Lionel repair service is so good -- try that approach in any other business and report back as to how it goes with your customers.)
As a consumer, I don't find it productive to spend a lot of time worrying about this stuff, but my response has been to drastically reduce purchases because I don't spend hard earned money to have my kids come down on a Christmas morning and have nothing from Lionel work properly (true story). And it's not just a question that the new stuff is more complex so it is more trouble prone -- in the 1990s and early 2000s I found my Lionel TMCC equipment pretty bulletproof. Slack sales will send the appropriate message, much more so than internet rants, here or elsewhere.
Oman posted:Breaking news; the Class A Lionmaster is Legacy. Look at the catalog folks; the intro to Legacy steam in the catalog says from page xx to page 53 is Legacy. The Class A Lionmaster is on page 53.
Go back and read it again Oman. The catalog table of contents plainly state that Legacy steam locomotives are on pages 34 - 51. The Lionmaster Class A is plainly on page 52. Also, there is no mention on this page about the loco being anything Legacy.
Looks like Lionel did not do any proof reading. Is it Legacy (pg. 34) or is it not Legacy (pg. 2) ?
For the conspiracy theorists, why does the N&W locos always wind up in some kind on controversy?
Big Jim posted:Oman posted:Breaking news; the Class A Lionmaster is Legacy. Look at the catalog folks; the intro to Legacy steam in the catalog says from page xx to page 53 is Legacy. The Class A Lionmaster is on page 53.
Go back and read it again Oman. The catalog table of contents plainly state that Legacy steam locomotives are on pages 34 - 51. The Lionmaster Class A is plainly on page 52. Also, there is no mention on this page about the loco being anything Legacy.
Looks like Lionel did not do any proof reading. Is it Legacy (pg. 34) or is it not Legacy (pg. 1) ?
For the conspiracy theorists, why does the N&W locos always wind up in some kind on controversy?
Look at the opening page for Legacy Steam locomotives and you will see that page 53 is included.
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Big Jim,
For the Record the Class A is Legacy. I got a module chip, instructions to set it up in The remote and has the quilling whistle.
Okay, people aren't happy about the speed curve on this, I get that. But really, can anyone honestly tell me how this locomotive isn't exactly as Lionel stated it is in the catalog? It has Legacy control (Legacy is the command protocol, not the speed curve.), has Legacy sounds, a steam whistle, synchronized smoke, directional lights, and able to go on O31 curves. Unless I missed it on my locomotive, the only real thing it's missing is the Odyssey on/off switch (Again, Odyssey is the speed control, not the speed curve.). No where does it say Legacy is encoder not BEMF. So really the issue is people just assumed (We all know what that means.) and are all hurt because the assumption was wrong. I for one am man enough to admit that my assumption was unfounded and wrong. My Class A delivers on everything Lionel stated in the catalog. The only real issues are dark headlights and stalling that is experienced by some owners. They can contact Lionel about that and get them serviced. Those who are up in arms because their assumptions were wrong can try talking to the delivering dealer, but I wouldn't expect too much. This has been a good lesson to read the fine print, and ask if you don't understand it. And don't keep going on and on about the BTO. Have you not realized that MTH has been working that way for over a decade? They just don't state it as such. I got told by my MTH LHS over 9 years ago when I went to try to order something from MTH when got into this scale that it was too late. Unless I placed an order during the pre-order time frame I wasn't likely to get it as MTH only made what is ordered on most things. So I was surprised that Lionel didn't operate this way when I looked to get my 1st Lionel product a couple years later.
sinclair posted:Okay, people aren't happy about the speed curve on this, I get that. But really, can anyone honestly tell me how this locomotive isn't exactly as Lionel stated it is in the catalog? It has Legacy control (Legacy is the command protocol, not the speed curve.), has Legacy sounds, a steam whistle, synchronized smoke, directional lights, and able to go on O31 curves. Unless I missed it on my locomotive, the only real thing it's missing is the Odyssey on/off switch (Again, Odyssey is the speed control, not the speed curve.). No where does it say Legacy is encoder not BEMF. So really the issue is people just assumed (We all know what that means.) and are all hurt because the assumption was wrong. I for one am man enough to admit that my assumption was unfounded and wrong. My Class A delivers on everything Lionel stated in the catalog. The only real issues are dark headlights and stalling that is experienced by some owners. They can contact Lionel about that and get them serviced. Those who are up in arms because their assumptions were wrong can try talking to the delivering dealer, but I wouldn't expect too much. This has been a good lesson to read the fine print, and ask if you don't understand it. And don't keep going on and on about the BTO. Have you not realized that MTH has been working that way for over a decade? They just don't state it as such. I got told by my MTH LHS over 9 years ago when I went to try to order something from MTH when got into this scale that it was too late. Unless I placed an order during the pre-order time frame I wasn't likely to get it as MTH only made what is ordered on most things. So I was surprised that Lionel didn't operate this way when I looked to get my 1st Lionel product a couple years later.
You could have probably stopped writing after the first sentence - "People aren't happy about the speed curve." That's reason enough to warrant returning the loco. It doesn't have the standard Legacy slow speed nor the ability to MU with other Legacy locos.
Legacy is promoted as follows "High Resolution Speed with 200 SPEED STEPS, the new dynamic speed system ensures unprecedented smooth, low speed operation". This is a quote from Lionel literature.
IMO, The BEMC electronics do not perform to the above statement. What is the point of 200 speed steps, if you can only use a fraction of those?
Oman posted:Legacy is promoted as follows "High Resolution Speed with 200 SPEED STEPS, the new dynamic speed system ensures unprecedented smooth, low speed operation". This is a quote from Lionel literature.
IMO, The BEMC electronics do not perform to the above statement. What is the point of 200 speed steps, if you can only use a fraction of those?
OMG RETURN THE ITEM.. Good lord your not happy ..
Oman posted:Big Jim posted:Oman posted:Breaking news; the Class A Lionmaster is Legacy. Look at the catalog folks; the intro to Legacy steam in the catalog says from page xx to page 53 is Legacy. The Class A Lionmaster is on page 53.
Go back and read it again Oman. The catalog table of contents plainly state that Legacy steam locomotives are on pages 34 - 51. The Lionmaster Class A is plainly on page 52. Also, there is no mention on this page about the loco being anything Legacy.
Looks like Lionel did not do any proof reading. Is it Legacy (pg. 34) or is it not Legacy (pg. 1) ?
For the conspiracy theorists, why does the N&W locos always wind up in some kind on controversy?
Look at the opening page for Legacy Steam locomotives and you will see that page 53 is included.
Oman,
I see that. Now, as I said, go look at the catalog table of contents on page 2. "Legacy" steam pgs. 34 - 51. Also note that while the "Steel City Switcher" lists "Legacy" on page 50, the Class A says nothing of the sort. And, as I said, Lionel states two different things. I'm just sorry that another N&W loco gets screwed up again!
I heard you twice Big Jim and totally agree!
You never see these issues happen to UP engines.
Lionel is not going to re-engineer for you. Return the engine and get something else.
Rod Miller
I don't usually get involved with debates on here, but this time I have to say something. It has been stated that this isn't a Legacy engine. Well, you only have to look in the catalog and not only is it a Legacy engine but the catalog plainly states it has Odyssey 2. Also the catalog states the Specs cover steam engines on pages 34-53. Further if you look this engine (N&W 1218) up on the Lionel website, the info plainly states it is Legacy and Odyssey 2 with on/off switch.
Jon Z. (Santafefan) Tells us this engine doesn't have Odyssey 2; it uses BEMF. This contradicts the catalog and Lionel's own website. I know they have the right to change specs during production but I believe they should notify customers as to such changes. Also they should list any changes on their website on engine specs.
I called Lionel this afternoon as to the problems I am having with mine. They have sent me a UPS shipping label for return to customer service for repairs. This is as it should be for a brand new product just out. Of course I shouldn't be having problems right out of the box.
The engine does look terrific and has great sounds, especially that whistle. But operation leaves much to be desired.
Rb
I just answered yours. Thanks
Larry
Erwin
No Larry I haven't. It's not in my spam folder either.
Timothy,
Thank you for your email. I have set up a return authorization for you to send the item to us so we can investigate the cause and repair your engine. I apologize for the inconvenience this has caused you.
I have also included a UPS call tag to cover the costs to get the item to us. Please be sure to package the item very well, as shipping damage is not covered under the warranty and could make the item costly to repair. Please be sure to include a copy of your purchase receipt.
Thank you,
Meghan sent this to me this morning it will be three weeks at least, but hopefully it is the repaired and lasts longer than now.
This has been an interesting thread. If some one opens their engine up I would love to know what receiver board and code they are using. A few thoughts from my perspective. I have built a Legacy Back EMF Williams Scale GG-1. Using the Legacy AF Challenger parts. You can do a search on the forum. Runs smooth as silk in slow and fast speeds. Can crawl along as good as any switcher. I probably was the first guy that found these parts and experimented with them. There was some issues when I integrated the whole package, and it revolved around the R4LC Code. Once I switched to a different R4LC Code the engine performed superbly. Frankly, even an observant operator should not be able to tell the difference between the two motor control types other than in a lashup (MU). So something else is wrong here.
Regardless of what "Big Jim" says (always seems to throw out red herrings), the engine is legacy based. But Legacy doesn't mean odyssey motor control. The fact Lionel did state that, but not follow through is where the concern can come in.
I have a feeling the issue with proper control is really a code problem they need to resolve. If you look at the AF Challenger they call the speed control a different name "AF Speed".
My concern is they have serious issue with RCMC boards. Either production, obsolete parts, cost??? All of a sudden these boards are not available anymore. They need to be turned in and remanufactured to get a board back.
Not sure what is going on, but there certainly "seems" like a lot of turmoil and failing policies. Makes you wonder who is really keeping their eye on the ball (shop) at Lionel. G
GGG posted:This has been an interesting thread. If some one opens their engine up I would love to know what receiver board and code they are using. A few thoughts from my perspective. I have built a Legacy Back EMF Williams Scale GG-1. Using the Legacy AF Challenger parts. You can do a search on the forum. Runs smooth as silk in slow and fast speeds. Can crawl along as good as any switcher. I probably was the first guy that found these parts and experimented with them. There was some issues when I integrated the whole package, and it revolved around the R4LC Code. Once I switched to a different R4LC Code the engine performed superbly. Frankly, even an observant operator should not be able to tell the difference between the two motor control types other than in a lashup (MU). So something else is wrong here.
Regardless of what "Big Jim" says (always seems to throw out red herrings), the engine is legacy based. But Legacy doesn't mean odyssey motor control. The fact Lionel did state that, but not follow through is where the concern can come in.
I have a feeling the issue with proper control is really a code problem they need to resolve. If you look at the AF Challenger they call the speed control a different name "AF Speed".
My concern is they have serious issue with RCMC boards. Either production, obsolete parts, cost??? All of a sudden these boards are not available anymore. They need to be turned in and remanufactured to get a board back.
Not sure what is going on, but there certainly "seems" like a lot of turmoil and failing policies. Makes you wonder who is really keeping their eye on the ball (shop) at Lionel. G
RE: "I have a feeling the issue with proper control is really a code problem they need to resolve. If you look at the AF Challenger they call the speed control a different name "AF Speed".
[jz] The code in the BEMC is identical to the Cruise Commander and Cruise Commader "M". I am looking into why the 0-8-0 runs faster than expected, but it may be normal based on the mechanics. I have measured the 0-8-0 as compared to a Williams Geep on the same speed step; and it runs faster than the Geep. I don't think it is code - I wrote the code, and I never have bugs! 
RE: "My concern is they have serious issue with RCMC boards. Either production, obsolete parts, cost??? All of a sudden these boards are not available anymore. They need to be turned in and remanufactured to get a board back."
[jz] We have RCMC board in stock; no supply issue there. The RCMC did not fit in the locos in question.
Jon, I was talking about the Legacy Receiver code? Which one is used in these engines?
Someone needs to let Service know that. I am over 19 days waiting, and they would not even sell the $32 Legacy Receiver without a turn in. How can you even trouble shoot if you can't have a spare Legacy Receiver board? G
Well, so much for waiting on Santa, my 1218 is coming out of the shipping box this afternoon for a good test running session.
Larry
still having fun, hopefully
That has to be a little stressful after all the chatter with this thread!! 
I hope yours is one of the good ones Larry !!!
Please let us know your findings.
Dave
GGG posted:Jon, I was talking about the Legacy Receiver code? Which one is used in these engines?
Someone needs to let Service know that. I am over 19 days waiting, and they would not even sell the $32 Legacy Receiver without a turn in. How can you even trouble shoot if you can't have a spare Legacy Receiver board? G
Hi G,
Sorry for any misunderstanding. The Legacy receiver is the "RCDR2"; and only provides the BEMC with serial data; all of the decoding is on the BEMC. Unlikely any operational behaviors are RCDR2 related. It does control the electro-couplers; but that is about all.
Contact me off board on parts if you can't get them; note on many off board email replies to you I get a bounce back on the email address. Please make sure you can receive my emails so that I can help.
Larry Sr. posted:Well, so much for waiting on Santa, my 1218 is coming out of the shipping box this afternoon for a good test running session.
Larry
still having fun, hopefully
I won't tell
SantaFeFan posted:GGG posted:Jon, I was talking about the Legacy Receiver code? Which one is used in these engines?
Someone needs to let Service know that. I am over 19 days waiting, and they would not even sell the $32 Legacy Receiver without a turn in. How can you even trouble shoot if you can't have a spare Legacy Receiver board? G
Hi G,
Sorry for any misunderstanding. The Legacy receiver is the "RCDR2"; and only provides the BEMC with serial data; all of the decoding is on the BEMC. Unlikely any operational behaviors are RCDR2 related. It does control the electro-couplers; but that is about all.
Contact me off board on parts if you can't get them; note on many off board email replies to you I get a bounce back on the email address. Please make sure you can receive my emails so that I can help.
Jon, Interesting. Thank you. Will send you an email. G
Hmmm... I've got ERRCo BEMF in several locomotives... including a Williams GG-1 and a Baby Mikado. They all crawl slow and steady. This almost sounds like a programming problem.
Jon 
