LIRR N5b caboose #2 - factory error paint job

Yeah...I got mine yesterday. All brown. Not even Tuscan.

The color strikes me as looking a lot like the Lionel N5c produced in 1953. I think these looked more like the PRR cars from the early 1950s and earlier. The LIRR went to orange and gray in the 1950s and the N5bs received those colors at that time. I think it looks nice and for me more preferable than the catalog illustration.

It's not bad looking, I think it's nice as well. It's just such a drastic difference than what was shown in the catalog.

The one you received has a nicer smoke stack and a nice yellow lantern on the end. Neither seem to be in the catalog photo. The black roof is too large of a detail for the factory to have dropped. The overall color seems a shade off but not a big deal to me.

As they warn, "appearance of actual item may differ from photograph."

Didn't Lionel mess up the colors on the Pennsy round roof box cars with brown paint rather than the correct freight car color?

I too have this Lionel 6-81809 L.I.R.R. N5b R.#2 cab. which is all brown with white markings and yellow safety equipment.  For the most part Lionel's released model  version is close to the actual prototype cabin car, except that Lionel has at each end lever/pump handles, instead of horizontal brake wheels, the lilly guy is on the lower deck, instead of being in the cupola and the roof and cupola are all brown.

Lionel's released scale model has the smoke stack in the correct location, as the prototype has. 

There are probably more differences between the real and model cabooses, but I'm not that knowledgeable of the actual equipment to know.

But very noticeable, Lionel's stock photo. cab. has a few differences, than their released scale model.

There are at least TWO color photos. of the prototype L.I.R.R. N5b R.#2, to compare with Lionel'S 1:48 scale model: l. i. rr cabooses

Ralph 

Looks to be red to me as like the photo except the roof should have been black with white grab irons.

Maybe someone more familiar with the P.RR. and the L.I.R.R. would probably know if the caboose body brown (or Tuscan color), brown roof, lanterns, square 'A' & 'B' end windows and the lever/pump handle brake-handles were common for the repack period of 1952?

Though, I realize that thanks to the steam locomotive giving off smoke stack gas, soot and cinders, that the cars were darkened and/or painted black so that the soot wouldn't be as noticeable.

Ralph

ffSIRT

I would agree with you about the grabs, but black for the roof for LIRR not so sure. The photo that you posted I believe shows a past repaint by the Oyster Bay Nuseum folks. It follows what was post war PRR freight car practice beginning in the late 1940s .

The Long Island N5s came to the LIRR in 1928 as ex pensy cars. PRR painting instructions referenced a color the the PRR called " Freight Car Color" which was  a red oxide  I believe the PRR cars had the roof and body color the same in the prewar and during world war 2 period. Using black on the roofs of PRR cabins seemed to have started in the late 1940s. We know that the PRR placed the LIRR in bankruptcy in 1949 and trustees of the LIRR at the time were quickly looking to eliminate the PRR image from the LIRR by repainting everything into the Tichy scheme. that they could as fast as they could. the road locomotives , ie RS-1s were repainted less than a year after delivery and the large fleet of passenger cars was done also and had priority. By the time they got around to freight equipment, the Goodfellow colors came on the scene, The two N5s along with the N 52 wood cabooses were repainted into orange with grey letters . It would be unlikely that the 2 N5s might have been repainted following PRR revised practice of Black roofs in the very late 1940s when all the bankruptcy turmoil and image concerns were in focus for the LIRR.

The car that Lionel has released seems to be very similar in color to the N5C lionel introduced in 1953 and probably reflects how most PRR cabooses were painted when Lionel planned its N5c in the early 1950s. The yellow grabs and railings are probably incorrect . Seems to me this LIRR N5 as Lionel has given us is very steam era . I am looking forward to receiving mine and using it behind the LIRR consolidations that I am running .

LIRR,

In the lower right corner of Lionel's N5b cab. R.#2, in white markings on both sides it reads: 'RPKD 2-3-52,' and below that it reads: 'PT LIRR.'

I would imagine that Lionel somewhere was able to get info. of the cab. for a 1952 paint scheme, just before the 'Goodfellow' scheme, due to their model resembling, as close as possible, the real (Prototype) cab., save for the yellow painted safety equipment, brake lever/pump handles and rounded 'A' & 'B' end windows, as on the prototype cab. which is in one of the color photo's., that I posted above.  I believe, the rounded 'Porthole' type windows were added much later in time.

UNLESS, this be a Lionel 'FANTASY' paint scheme, as Lionel and some other manufacturers, are sometimes known to do?!!

Ralph

Ralph

are you saying that Lionels car has rounded end windows? . I doubt if the car was built that way when it came from the PRR. It would been rebuilt with round end windows at some point in its career, maybe in 1952? Possible it needed a body repair . Could be that Lionel has access to a photo we haven't seen yet.

LIRR,

Again, I did NOT proof read and edit my post and I am sorry for causing confusion.

I should have clearly stated that Lionel's scale model has square 'A' & 'B' end windows with cross wood sections.

One of the prototype color photo's. of the real cabin car-L.I.R.R. N5b R. #2, (In an older beat up condition), has rounded 'porthole' type of windows, probably added sometime through the years and having a black roof and black cupola roof.

What I should have clearly mentioned was: maybe Lionel was able to obtain an old photo., either in color, or B.&W. with some info. of the real cabin car and produced their model based on the info. and cabin car at the time in 1952.

Ralph

Old style LIRR cabooses appear to be red with black tops, PRR paint schemes from when the LI was part of the PRR.

End port holes replaced square windows on LIRR items along the years, not sure why?

WWII Navy guys working in the shop I guess, like the grey paint and large battleship numbers?

The notion of model train marketers changing or customizing cookie cutter rolling stock would not be a profitable decision just for a few caboose sales. So modified port holes were strictly done by the real LI shop.         

Lionel as with Atlas O are a bit late in the LIRR caboose game as the LIRR market has been flooded by MTH already.

There are several LI websites showing cabooses on the web as well as in books.

SIRT

The photo you most recently posted is rather recent . The colors shown likely were applied by those other than the LIRR folks and subsequent to almost 3 decades in the Orange with the large letters. The Oyster Bay group has restored this car to the Tuscan with Black roof scheme and restored the rectangular windows from the portholes once installed on this car in its LIRR days.

It is unfortunate that there are few color photos of these cars from the 40s and 50s. We can only speculate. In the prewar steam era, the cars were most likely as Lionel has modelled the color save for the yellow railings.   

All photos I can find including B&W still indicate the PRR colors. There would not be a reason for any PRR shop to have brown paint for anything.

I would say Lionel's non black roof is an over site like MTH's non silver widow frame MU's. Possibly both were a production deadline rush to market.

As for museum repaints at least on the bay window cabooses, I don't believe they are all correct looking at old and new photos.

LIRR Hack roster: http://www.trainsarefun.com/li...irrcabooseroster.htm

Caboose color info: http://www.trainsarefun.com/mo...ose#14%20restoration

LIRR modeling information: http://www.trainsarefun.com/modeling/modelingmain.htm

SIRT

The key is in the timing of what were the "PRR Colors" and when did they apply  during the period of PRR influence and control on the LIRR. Prior and through WW2, I do believe that the PRR painted the steel cabins entirely in what the PRR referred to as "Freight Car Color." Freight car color was a PRR term used on its equipment drawings and painting instructions for many years encompassing the lifetimes of these cars . The color was a red oxide whose formulation seemed to change over the years . The car encyclopedias from the post war years show a photo of a PRR N5c in a solid Freight car color scheme . The N5c which was sent to the Chicago Fair exhibit in 1948 was repainted for the occasion in Freight car color with a black roof on either side of the cupola. The cupola however was entirely Freight car color. PRR drawings for the N5b through the late 1940s mention the painting instructions as Freight car color with the only revision made through the 1940s noting a change from brush application to spray application. I did not see a reference to black roofs.

But based on the 1948 photo of the N5c with the black roof treatment, one might assume that the PRR started to paint steel cabins with black roofs around this time. The LIRR was put into bankruptcy by the PRR in 1949 and the reorganized LIRR started a program to eliminate the PRR colors from the railroad. The original group of RS-1s delivered stating in 1949 were painted by ALCO in the PRR dark green and gold lettering but were repainted by the reorganized LIRR during that year and into early 1950. It would seem that Morris Park was a PRR shop for a very short time following the start of Black roofs on steel cars to the Re-organized LIRR looking to eliminate the PRR image from its equipment.

The two N5b  cars were acquired from the PRR in 1928 and based on what seems to have been the timeline of using black roofs on steel cars on the PRR , its likely this car was in Freight car color during its time on the LIRR from 1928 through the late 1940s. So it is as Lionel modelled it save for the yellow grab pretty much as it might have been on the LIRR during that period. Perfect for your H10s or a G5s breaking in after a backshop trip. From the late 1940s through the time that the LIRR repainted into Orange with large grey letters its possible that the LIRR might have painted the car roofs black cars . I would imagine that with the focus on eliminating the Tuscan red from all the passenger cars on the system in those years , painting of any kind of a cabin car might have been a low priority for the LIRR . Having a color photo of the car in this period would certainly help clarify the history. 

For myself the color as I see it in the first photos posted seems close to the color of Lionels N5c cabin from 1953 and seems to be a good companion to accompany an H6b (3rd Rail) or an H10s (MTH).For a 1940s and earlier, the grabs should match the car color.

LIRR Steamer,

I agree with you and without any knowledge, I am out on a limb without a rope, to say that by 1952, these N5b cabin cars were still all brown, as recently produced by Lionel.

Ralph

Ralph

Try to think of the car color as "Freight Car Color" ie sort of a red oxide. from the photo it looks very close to the color lionel chose for the N5c in the 1953 catalog.

Slightly off topic, but can anyone tell me if the yellow marker lights light up on this Lionel version of a LIRR caboose?

Yep...light up red.

LIRR Steamer,

Thank you for your correcting me regarding P.RR's. color of 'Freight Car Color.'

I also like P.RR's. 'Camp Car Yellow,' for their M.O.W. fleet.

Ralph