Major Flaw in Lionel's new Pre Ordering system.

Originally Posted by CWEX:

I would want to know/see exactly what I am paying for.

The rest of us--probably a significant majority--are a good bit easier to please and a whole lot less fussy about whether a detail or two (or even more) on a model is absolutely "correct."  We see something that appeals to us--even as a never-to-be-trusted-with-100%-certainty catalog depiction--and by golly we're going to go for it!  We place our preorder, wait a few months or years, and delight like a kid on Christmas morning when the thing actually appears. 

This is the camp I'm in.  I love the Big Boy, but could care less if it has pipes or not on the pilot, but several are hung up on this.  Perhaps those threads casued me to fill up to rant mode.

If I'm really only buying a car based on it's color, then there is something wrong with me.  But if I like the listed features of the car, and like the color listed, but the car shows up in a different hew, I'll still be fine, because I didn't base my choice solely on the color.  No one here is saying they are only going to buy due to the photo in the catalog though.  Funny thing is the car I own is rather like this, features I wanted, but the color ended up not being the one I wanted, but I took the car anyway.  But instead of being built to order, it was a extremely hard to find used car.

Incorrect.  This thread isn't about offerings, it's about the catalogs/display of their offerings and ordering such.  By all means, if you don't like the offerings, let them know what features you want to see.

My rant is not an attack, it's expressing my feelings on the subject.  An attack requires a specific target, and I named none.  My statements were sweeping.  As for the avatar, there is little point.  What's to stop someone from using any old photo they find online?  I have an avatar I use on all other sites I'm on, and it is part of my identity, but because it wasn't a photo it was removed.

As you get to know me, you'll see learn I am rather easy going, but like all males, I can get hot under the collar.  I also don't have any fear saying what I think about things.  And some people have gotten rather offended because of it.  Me, I say my peace and move on.  If someone says something I don't like, I'll tell them and let it be.  I don't get offended (Since offense is a choice.), and I don't hold grudges.

Thats for sure... before or after they burn up?

Having said that, I don't think Lionel has EVER had an actual picture of a particular model that was 100% what was to be delivered.

This must indded be an exceptional catalog for folks to suddenly realize the manner in which Lionel sells/markets their trains. Even though they've been doing it this way for years.

And I 100% disagree with your statement!

If I go to a dealer and something is on the shelf, then I can make a decision on whether or not I want a product. If I pre-order a product that should not change anything! If I don't like it I should not be forced to keep it. That's not my problem. This scenario has been created by the MFGs. This is a risk of doing business that the dealers will need to absorb. Not the customers.

If a dealer isn't willing to work with me then I simply won't buy from them. This is ludicrous to think that I should pre-order something site unseen from a catalog, possibly including a deposit and not have the right to refuse it upon arrival! What if your Big-Boy shows up with a green boiler? Where do you draw the line?

I have had a situation exactly like this in HO. I pre-ordered some products and when the first arrived it didn't meet my expectations so I said no thanks. The dealer still charged my credit card and wouldn't remove it. Guess who the CC company agreed with? Me.

If this is truly the way things are headed then I will be happy to take my model train budget to another scale where I don't have to pre-order anything. 

Incorrect.  This thread isn't about offerings, it's about the catalogs/display of their offerings and ordering such.  By all means, if you don't like the offerings, let them know what features you want to see.

So you're saying that what's listed in a catalog is not an offering?  Man, I'd love to know what color the sky is on the planet you're on right now, 'cause based on that reply I'd say it's definitely not blue.    Your reply hasn't shown how it's irrelevant to discuss and critique what's listed in the catalog and buy based on what is seen and the problems of what you're actually going to get.

That truly might be the best solution for you because I would imagine that made-to-order preorders for higher-end items is now, or soon will be, the new normal in the O gauge segment of the hobby, in particular.

Lionel has issued final product that ended up being better looking & more accurate than what the catalog picture depicts, but they also have released others that look exactly like what the catalog showed, discrepancies and all. 

Their SD40T-2 is a prime example of the latter.  The catalog picture showed a model with front and rear trucks that were too far inward which resulted in an excessive overhang effect at both ends of the frame and had the same size fuel tank on the SP and Rio Grande versions (the Rio Grande used smaller fuel tanks).  They also offered one of their SP units in the modernized speed lettering with a road number that didn't have speed lettering.  The final products were exactly like the catalog pictures with the exact same discrepancies.

I see the point of Allan's comment but I'd add one negative and one positive observation (or maybe they're both negative):

1. Not even the sort of attention that Scott pays to the manufacturing process is a guarantee that a full run of a particular model will be exactly right or free from manufacturing defects. I've had issues with his products that were all resolved but the quality of the finished product really depends on what happens at the factory and nobody is equal to supervising every model's assembly. That said, the last model I got from 3rd Rail (a Jawn Henry) was just about perfect (except he can't put Legacy sound in his models) and Scott publicized each stage of the manufacturing process.

2.  At some point in Lionel's manufacturing and QC processes - at least those for the higher end engines - somebody must produce a final drawing/ set of specs of/ for the finished product and production samples for inspection. Occasionally a pre- production sample will be shown by Lionel at a big event or on one of their videos, but surely it must be possible to release more info about how the production of a particular model is progressing. Paint schemes and sound/running tests are regularly publicized by 3rd Rail - I can't believe that Lionel can't do something similar at least for their more expensive products. Doing so is really no more than documenting the QC process they say they have recently implemented.

Regarding the AC-12, I'm prepared to buy one of the new issue sight unseen because it's obvious that they are using the 2005 issue tooling and unless they cut down on the separately applied parts this engine will be very nicely detailed with the improvement of Legacy control and whistle smoke. (It's MSRP is only $100 above the 2005 price and the street price is actually about $300 less).

I guess Scott Mann didn't get the memo. Time after time he stands behind his products. He doesn't ask for deposits, and has no problem allowing you to return an item if it isn't up to your expectations. The FP-7 issues being the latest example.

That is good business. That's the kind of business I can get behind and support.

Like I said. If my dealers don't want to work with me on this issue then I won't be ordering anything and since I also enjoy other scales I won't have a problem focusing on them instead. It will be interesting to see how this all pans out.

Well I think we all can go back and forth on this all day long w/o getting anywhere because there are 2 camps here.  If you are willing to spend your money on an item that is incorrect in one form or another and you are ok with that; then that is your choice to make.  After all it is your money and you are the one who has to be happy with it.   There is also the other group that I am in that says I want what I am paying for...and as such (as I stated earlier) I'll wait until I can see it in person.

       I personally would be happy to see a accurate image/depiction in the catalog so everyone knows what to expect and what their $$$ are going for. 

If a person does not have an Avatar of themselves on the forum, it is easier to skewer everyone when nobody knows who you are.

Andrew

Just my opinion, but THAT is hogwash!

Besides, anybody's avatar, or non-avatar, really has NOTHING to do with the discussion/topic of this whole thread!

Tempot in a teapest . . . 

You don't have to order anything.

Everyone knows the dealers will order extras.

Hello? If a dealer thinks the Big Boy will appreciate, don't you think there will be additional orders? There is also the secondary market. There will be Cab Forwards on Oy Vay 10 seconds after delivery.

if you don't like like the water temperature, keep your pants on.

Scrapiron

Something we agree on!  The end has come.

And yes, the sky is blue here.  Not a cloud in the sky.

A couple things:

1.  Sinclair is right, and

2.  Why don't you OCD rivet counters just buy 3rd rail scale stuff instead of expecting miracles from a toy company?

 Man, I'd love to know what color the sky is on the planet you're on right now......    

The sky here is a lovely shade of pink. Although this could be due to my constant use of rose tinted spectacles. 

Actually this has nothing to do with counting rivets. Its about a company that has cataloged an item that is scheduled to be released in 4 months and does not yet know what its going to look like. 

Reading is fundamental. 

Pete

Sulafool and Sinclair, I can't believe you guys think your opinion is the only way. You show a huge lack of respect to other people involved in this hobby, as not everyone likes the same things you do.  What if someone replied you ought to think twice before typing such insults.  Geeez, totally inappropriate ...

To Jeff78rr,

Jeff you're 100% correct. There are those who disagree and we know they're out there. They prove only one thing by posting such garbage.

*That Being Said*

In my seventy-one years, I've seen a lot of social change. Most of it not being for the betterment of our society. 

As I see it, we are all individuals with individual opinions.  There should never be any expectation that everyone who participates here is going to be in line, or even close to in line, with your way of seeing things.  Simply ain't gonna happen!

If you work closely with a dealer and have established a history with him, chances are he will willingly work with you to retain you as a satisfied customer.  Doesn't matter if he's located right next door to you or 2,000 miles away.  Some dealers will order a Big Boy, Cab Forward, or whatever in some quantity over and above the number of preorders placed by his customers.  Others will go strictly with the number ordered.  It's really the consumer's responsibility to learn and know what can be expected.

All of the manufacturers do the best they can to satisfy an increasingly demanding but also gradually shrinking market.  It's obviously in their best interest to do so.  But consumer expectations also need to be tempered by a healthy dose of realism.  No one manufacturer, and no one product, will ever be all things to all prospective buyers.  That's simply a fact of life.

Many here are perfectly satisfied to see a product they like being produced at all.  Others want that product to be prototypically correct down to the finest detail.  Many couldn't care less about steam coming from a toy train whistle; others will settle for nothing less.  And the list of examples could go on and on.  Obviously, the goal of 100% agreement and satisfaction is largely unobtainable.

Up until a very few years ago, nearly all of my O gauge trains were traditional size; today, nearly all of my trains are scale size, or very near to it.  Up until a few years ago, I operated my trains with a conventional transformer; today I operate everything with commend control.  At one time, not too long ago, I cautioned against pre-ordering anything; now I pre-order most all of the major items that are important to me.  But I sure don't expect others to follow that same path, and I most certainly don't look down my nose at anyone who chooses to enjoy the hobby in a completely different way, or even in some different scale or gauge.

We all need to be tolerant of the interests of others, and be fully aware of the fact that this is a very diverse segment of a hobby that is populated by equally diverse individuals.

Does that also mean we have to be tolerant of intolerance? 

Allan gives a nice dose of rationality to an escalating topic, and Mr. Korling steps in and ruffles feathers again   John" the O guage instagator", I mean rivet counter

I have never said it was my way or the high way.  I'm just saying I'm tired of seeing this forum fill up with people complaining about the Lionel catalog.  Others have turned it into a rivet counters vs toy train thread.  Sulafool's statement is rather extreme, and I don't agree with his 2nd statement.  rdunniii is wrong in Lionel not saying anything is scale, the opening letter talks about locomotives added to Lionel's scale offerings.  I guess maybe a better way for me to of stated my feelings was that instead of posting complaints about Lionel's up coming products one should instead start threads about how they are going to modify their locomotive to be more prototypical.

But in the end this thread is about someone complaining because they are used to being able to not pre order and then wait until their LHS has one of the new models to then see it in person to get, but Lionel is killing this way of train buying for their high end stuff.  IMHO, no amount of complaining about it will change things.  If you want the new item, you will have to pony up and buy it sight unseen and hope for the best.  If you don't like this, then I guess you try your luck on the 2nd hand market after they are out.  I'm okay with this new way of ordering, because I am not a scale rivet counter guy.  If I can look at it and know it's a Big Boy (which I've ordered) I'm fine with it.  I would of been just as happy if they had been LionMaster versions (If not more because for the same price I could get 2!).

People hate change, and this thread was started because someone didn't like the change.  I learned long ago that change comes, wither we want it or not.  We can either make the most out of it, or hunker down and get left behind.

...at your service.   

No one is forcing you to read those complaints as you refer to them as; if you start reading someone's comments and see indications of it being complaint you can just stop right there and skip to the next post; repeat as necessary.

If the individual poster or posters really get to you enough, you can always block them so any post by them afterwards will simply be invisible to you so you won't ever have to read them ever again; out of sight, out of mind.  I'm sure whomever you target won't mind one way or another anyway.

You were wrong in your first post and continue to miss the point. This is not about change nor how accurate the model is to the prototype.

Its about Lionel being either unable or unwilling to describe their product. Reading comprehension appears to be skill lost not only on our youth.

Pete

"Because without them, Lionel would be out of business.  Only people left would be those buying $134 PE sets off Amazon."

I'm inclined to doubt this contention. What evidence we have is that the high end scale models are a relatively modest, if important part of Lionel's sales.  Their total annual sales are thought to be in the range of $50-100 million per year.  They sell hundreds of thousands of train sets each year, which therefore likely accounts for as much as 50% of their annual sales.  That's the largest single source of their revenues as a  category by their own admission. 

They might sell a thousand or two high end steamers, accounting for perhaps a million dollars or less for each model made annually.   Hi-rail scale is almost certainly a smaller niche within the three rail hobby than beginner's sets.  I have probably spent tens of thousands of dollars on three rail trains in the last 20+ years (yikes) and have never bought an expensive scale steam locomotive, as one example.  I'm pretty typical of a group of over 50 three railers I know with varying degrees of familiarity.  I wouldn't be too certain that purchasers of $2,000 Big Boys are the mainstay of Lionel's business model.  They're a part, but not the critical part in all likelihood.  They're still primarily a toy company. 3rd Rail is a scale model railroad importer, by way of contrast.  Different business models, as Allan has pointed out.

I agree that it would be best if they could give you a precise description of their products months in advance, but they cannot always do that, for reasons that have been well described.  Not least of which, is changes get made for all sorts of reasons during the production process.

Lionel and Hardy "This is another fine mess you got us in" Alan- You had the right answer. That is, just don't buy the product.  This 3 platform command control has got me tiffed. I have enough equipment to last the rest of my life. I lived with conventional and no sound for years. I still had fun. There are some things that are nice in the catalog. But, I will be sitting it out...as a protest. I recently bought a williams SD90 Katy..99.00...looks good,too.

I understand what Pete is saying when someone at Lionel answering the phone says we don't disclose future product info    That's just a bunch of crap! The person or people answering the phone don't have a clue of what product Lionel has past-present-or future! 

There was a post on the color of the PC E-8's,Nick contacted MR and he passed it on to the new guy in charge of new product and he answerd Nicks question on the color.  That post seems to have gone away?  It all depends who you talk with!!

Doug

J Class, I agree with you however their Big Boy prototype, in the video, doesn't match the catalog artwork.  The prototype they showed is what I want, it doesn't have the after cooler piping.

Remember a few years ago when Lionel's catalog art showed a NYC F7 in the all black (non-lightning stripe) paint scheme and when the model came out it had the lightning stripes? How many preorderers got burned on that one?  That's why I won't be preordering anything.

Doug

I show you a sign that says STOP

 AND I SEND you a sign that says stop

IT's the same but different??????

Would you be happy with it??

Doug

"If I'm really only buying a car based on it's color, then there is something wrong with me.  But if I like the listed features of the car, and like the color listed, but the car shows up in a different hew, I'll still be fine, because I didn't base my choice solely on the color.  No one here is saying they are only going to buy due to the photo in the catalog though.  Funny thing is the car I own is rather like this, features I wanted, but the color ended up not being the one I wanted, but I took the car anyway.  But instead of being built to order, it was a extremely hard to find used car."

Try reading a little more carefully.  I don't remember saying the color was why you bought the car, only that you loved it.   I have to say you are probably one in a million.  Spending ten of thousands of dollars on something.  It doesn't come as ordered but that doesn't bother you.  Either you're the luckiest person in the world or the most tolerant.  I guessing neither actually.

I would disagree.  If we are talking about scale Lionel offerings (remember the engine Pete started the thread with has a $1700 MSRP) then comparisons with Sunset/3rd Rail is an apples-to-apples comparison.

I have no qualms about pre-ordering a 3rd Rail model sight unseen as I know that Scott will get things rights.  Unfortunately for Lionel, its a crap shoot when it comes to steam engines.

Jim

Pre order is...pre order. Lionel has mismanaged this BTO for the BB, IMHO. I am to sell my life long HO collection to buy two VL BB and I expect Lionel to tell me exactly what they are producing, then I have the choice of buying or NOT buying. BUT, I already pre ordered and now I see this mess going on, I am not sure what to expect from Lionel now this being my first purchase from them....This is NOT the way to gain life long supporting customers. If this is the way some companies run their business, it OK I have other choices to be made. It is just not good business from what I see so far, remember I am new to Lionel so I hope they will come up to my satisfaction. MY Hobby, my opinion...

For some of you here--and with a little self-examination you'll know who you are--I sincerely hope that laying your emotions out for all the world to see holds some positive therapeutic value.  It certainly is something to behold.

Do try to keep in mind that the topic here is toy trains…nothing more than plastic and metal artifacts with little value or importance in the broad scheme of things beyond the enjoyment they are meant to provide to their owner.  If the "things" of this hobby are causing you angst, anger, or frustration, perhaps it's time for a bit of introspective re-evaluation.  

Please try to get a good night's sleep!