Major Flaw in Lionel's new Pre Ordering system.

Mr Miller, wisely said!

This is just a hobby. The issue is most of us are very passionate about it...

In my years I have come to learn that what is written above is just something that people who insult other people say to make it seem like what they are doing is OK or right.

I have no dog in this fight since Lionel doesn't offer 2 rail but I agree that in the sense that anything that is non-essential to survive in today's world can be considered a toy. Say I were buying an old restored Corvette from a reputable dealer on the other side of the country for $20,000. Even though I trust the dealer for that much money I'd still like to see some pics of the car. Maybe some other people who are more well off than myself would just buy it but for me I want to see what I am buying. I think it is the same here for some folks. They just want to know ahead of time what they are spending their hard earned hobby dollars on. I don't see anything wrong with that.

If I did want this particular locomotive and I was scared I might not like the final product I would not pre-order it and wait to see it when it is delivered realizing that if I do like the final product I may have to pay premium for it which is OK with me. It's kind of like insurance because OTOH if the thing is a dud and most people don't like the final product I would be stuck with something I don't like and if I then try to sell it I would probably be taking a heavy loss.

Last but not least the other day I found something I printed out from this forum about 12 years ago. I don't remember who actually posted but I think it applies.  Here it is:

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Each of us has a different definition of what fun is. For some folks running toy trains around in a circle is fun. For others, collecting brass models is fun. For others counting rivets and researching/modeling is fun. For others prototypical operation is fun.

There has always been a line between one’s personal definition of what fun is and the actions of others. This can be analogized by a George Carling joke:

There are two kinds of people on the highway: Morons and Maniacs. If a person is driving slower than you, he’s a moron and if a person is driving faster than you he’s a maniac. “Didja see that Maniac passing me? The Highway Patrol ought to ticket him!”

There are two kinds of model railroaders. “People who just play with trains” and “People who are ruining the hobby.”  Those who are less prototypical than you are bozos who are just playing with toy trains and those who are more prototypical than you are rivet-counting extremists who are ruining the hobby.

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Its still early on the West Coast, so from my perspective, Lionel moved the high end of their electric trains from "toy" to "adult hobby" when they introduced the scale Hudson in 1937. It was built to appeal to "scale modelers" which were growing in number as noted in Ron Hollender's book All Aboard!  He wrote that "In 1937, Lionel appealed to these modelers directly with an exquisitely accurate rendering of the NYCentral's Hudson steam locomotive." He noted that for the $75 dollar price, you could travel by real train from Chicago to San Francisco, spend 16 days and return.

So, for those of you who want the most accurate model possible in  the high end engines today, that's what Lionel stands for and you have a right to expect that for your hard earned dollars.  There may be some tradeoffs between functionality and details, but that's been the case since 1937. Even the Hudson was short three rivets (out of 1,402). JL Cowen was mortified and created the position of rivet counter at Lionel. 

 To keep the high end sales,  Lionel is going to have to work for those dollars, and I think they need to do as much as possible to provide early looks of the engines.  i think they have started to do this with the Big Boy. I am glad I only have 54 inch curves so I can pass on this engine.

If you like it and want to take a risk, order it.  If not, then don't.  Once making this decision, step out of the trainroom and spend a few days engaged in something other than this forum or the hobby.  Get some fresh air preferably.  Then come back andthink again about whether it is a big deal.  What you find may surprise you.

Well said Allen! 

I have learned a lot from this debate/discussion, and it has helped confirm my belief that preordering anything from anyone incurs, for me, an unacceptable risk.  The difference between catalog descriptions or pictures and final production items is sometimes too great to gamble my money on.  Moreover, it puzzles me that, in this age when designs are worked out in advance with the help of complex computer programs and simulations, accurate and life-like computer images are not generated and published.  CGI can be used to show fine details and colors of products.  Yet, train manufacturers sometimes use HO models, scale models from other manufacturers, and rather imprecise images to market their products.  It is as if neither buyers nor manufacturers are sure how the final product will turn out.  It reminds me of the old saying, "buying a pig in a poke."  But, in this case, even the sellers haven't seen the actual or finalized pig.

But this is a highly personal decision, and I can see why folks who have more disposable income than I and more trust in train manufacturers than I, might want to take the gamble.  More than likely, everything will turn out okay and these folks will be more than pleased with the delivered product.  What is great about this thread is that all the participants have shown a great deal of passion about their individual principles and practices.  Given their own points of view and practical needs, everyone in this thread is right.  I think discussions of this kind really help people on the fence to decide how to spend their money and enthusiasm.

Amazed this thread is still running . . .

I am amazed that people have such passion for a toy.

And most have an opinion that does not matter. They are not even purchasing this product.

If you pre-order, and its not what you like, send it back to Lionel, and if there is something better out there, buy it.

Besides Lionel stands behind their product its not all a "Pig in a Poke"

With all due respect, I think that everyone's opinion matters.

Agree.

Be tolerant of others opinions, and civil when you disagree.

Bottom line is that you either pre-order or you don't. Buy it or not. 

I know I will get a great looking and running locomotive from Lionel. I refuse to worry about it. When it comes I will be very happy, I always have been. 

Some of you guys need to take a deep breath or get another hobby. The whole point of Lionel trains wheather scale or toy is to have fun. And boy I am having fun.

I will make my pick with the information that is out there and enjoy it. I too am happy Lionel is coming out with a Legacy Big Boy.

I think you mean a "Vision Line Big Boy", don't you? Lionel made the "Legacy Big Boy" quite a few years ago, in fact it was the very first Legacy model and even came with a Legacy command controller.

Don't quite know how to say this and I'm not trying to sound disrespectful of anyone. But, I am honestly very happy that I can not afford one of these things and I don't know much about trains, real, toy, model or otherwise.