Modern Transformers

Why do you want a transformer if you're running DCS and Legacy?  Just use power bricks.

What, me worry?

What Alfred said.  But if you want a transformer, remember MTH Z4000 can deliver 22 VAC which is more than Lionel electronics like.

Tony

To start, both transformers are excellent.  I own a ZW-L and I know people who own the Z4000. To be fair, the ZW-L is a much newer designed transformer so it has more features built into it. 

The ZW-L has 640 watts of power.  Each of the four channels has a limit of 180 watts (18 volts @10 amps).  The transformer will not let you exceed the total 640 watts.  It will cut back power to any channel and divert it other channels as needed but never to exceed 180 watts on any channel.

The Z4000 only has 2 channels rated for 180 watts.  1 channel is fixed at 14v 3 amps.  Last channel is fixed at 10 volts 3 amps.

The ZW-L has 2 circuit breakers per channel.  One is software controlled, the other is a manual breaker.  The software controlled breaker trips very fast and is re-setable via the cab1 remote.  The backup breaker must be reset at the transformer by pressing the reset button.  If either  breaker trips on a given channel, the other channels remain live.

The z4000 has a single breaker for each output.

The ZW-L has 2 gauges for amps and 2 gauges for volts.  It defaults to showing the outside channels.  Touching the inner dials, the gauges will auto switch to the touched channel and show its reading.  When done, it switches back to the default outside channels.

The Z4000 has a digital display of the volts and amps for the two track power channels only.

The ZW-L detects overloads and will fold back power on the channel with the overload.  If it is not corrected, the channel will shut down.  This differs from a direct short which will cut the power immediately.

I do not know if the Z4000 has this feature (but I do not think so)

Both have bell, whistle, and directional control buttons.

The ZW-L puts out a chopped sign wave.  The chopped sign wave does improve performance of smoke units and pullmor motor engines.  At 18 volts it becomes almost a pure sign wave.

Z4000 is a pure sign wave.

Both have internal cooling fans and On/Off switches.

The ZW-L is fully controllable via the Cab1.  I do not know if you can cotrol the Z4000 from the dcs remote.

While the Z4000 is cheaper, you are getting a lot more transformer with the ZW-L.  Its really a matter of preference and what you need from the transformer.  I got the ZW-L and it  powers all my tracks, switches, rcs tracks, and some lights.  I have come no where near its limit.  It has proven to be a dependable unit.  If I had to decide today, I would again choose the ZW-L.

The Z4000 has been around for a long time and is also a dependable unit.  I cannot say I have ever read a bad report about it.  You can't go wrong with either choice.

I agree if you are running Legacy and DCS power bricks is definitely the way to go.  Why pay for the throttles ( a pain with command control), and the bells and whistles that you don't need?  Power bricks have excellent fuse protection too.

Art 

I recently asked a similar question. Unless you are running conventionally, high-cost transformers are poor bang for the buck.

Transformers will give you the ability to set the voltage to the track. Bricks supply a fix 18 volts. Unless you add a power master or some other voltage control you can't vary the voltage. If you just want fixed power to the track with no extra frills,then a brick is the most economical.

The Z-4000 has UL certification and is the ONLY high power transformer that does.

My $0.02:

The Z4K is the best transformer on the market... IF you run conventional AND you own, or plan on owning, engines with QSI or early Protosound(1) electronics.  If you are running command, any other transformer or brick will do just as good or a better job.  On the plus side, the accessory outputs do not take any power away from the main throttles, so all power is available for the track from each handle.  As a major drawback for command operation, you have to set the handles to zero before turning power on to the Z4k, then raise them to the desired voltage.  You can't just leave them set.  

While it costs quite a bit more you get practically twice the transformer with a ZW-L over the z4k.  As mentioned above you get four outputs with up to 180w each, 640W total.  You also get a chopped wave form that will improve smoke output on engines with modern electronics when run conventionally... but will give trouble if you have the aforementioned QSI/ps1 engines.  Aside from having almost twice the power of the z4k, the ZW-L (edited typo here) also has four Legacy Powermasters built in, allowing control of conventional equipment from the legacy/tmcc systems. You do get 2 variable channels built into the TIU, with DCS.  Even so, running DCS you would need two Z4K's and an additional TIU to get the same functionality as one ZW-L.  On the other hand, if you don't need that much power or control, then it's a lot of money for something you're not using.  

In a pure command setting the PH180 is still the optimal choice, though stock is low at the moment.  as of now new ones are expected to ship in August of 2017.

As a last note, while it functions like one, for the purposes of being able to run QSi/early PS1 engines, and for not improving smoke output on modern engines, the Z4K is NOT a pure sine wave transformer.  It outputs a noisy, filthy, waveform that is close enough to behave like a sine wave for the rudimentary electronics in those engines, but is more like a digital audio amplifier's unfiltered PWM output.  

JGL

Edit, fixed some typos.

Erie,

   Here is the bottom line for me, I have 3 Z4K's, 2 old ZW's and 2 old KW Transformers, and still do not have even 1/2 the cost invested in them, that I would have, if I purchased just 1 new ZW-L Transformer.   JGL gave you the operational pros and cons of both the ZW-L and the Z4K Transformers, what you now must decide is what you really need and how much you want to invest to power your complete layout.   IMO I would like to add a ZW-L to my layout power station, however I will add a used ZW-L, when I can pick one up at a reasonable cost, and not before.

PCRR/Dave

Scotty we can always use more power!

Get a Z-4000, the old ones are nice to look at,

but who wants to burn their house down

Transman posted:

...but who wants to burn their house down

It's a good bet... that has never happened.

ADCX Rob posted:

Transman posted:

...but who wants to burn their house down

It's a good bet... that has never happened.

Exactly, just as few have shot their eyes out with their BB guns, but mother hen still squawks!

ADCX Rob posted:

Transman posted:

...but who wants to burn their house down

It's a good bet... that has never happened.

Oh, I bet it has....on the older ones....

Gentlemen,

   Any Transformer old or new taken care of improperly can cause a fire, take care of your equipment properly as it is used, and you will not have a problem with it.  

PCRR/Dave

shawn posted:

ADCX Rob posted:

Transman posted:

...but who wants to burn their house down

It's a good bet... that has never happened.

Oh, I bet it has....on the older ones....

Define "older". My Christmas layout this year was powered by a 68 year old transformer.

I had two Z4K's and needed more power, so I bought one of the then new ZW-L's. I liked it so well that I bought another ZW-L and sold the two Z4K's. Very good decision.

The ZW-L's have excellent protection, and in some instances reset themselves, depending on the nature of the short or other anomaly. I also like the ammeters and voltmeters. I set the handles to the maximum output, around 18.6v, and the voltage stays rather constant regardless of what I run. Unlike the Z4K's, which would vary widely depending on what was on the track.

I also have the ZW-L's on a remotely controlled power strip, controlled with a remote. I  leave the ZW-L's on with the throttle handles at max, and turn the power on and off with the remote. The Z4K's required me to turn down the throttle handles to turn output on after turning off - a PITA for me.

BTW, I run Legacy/TMCC and DCS, but no conventional.

Alex

Erie:

"I have two Postwar 275w  ZWs to control accessories/lights ect. so I'm good there."

Please be aware the ZW's have very slow circuit breakers - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVeCPeeeRNk

Unless you have the money I don't recommend the breakers in the video ($85 each) but you may want to consider simple 5-10 watt fuses / fuse holders depending on what you are powering.

Joe

180 W per channel may not be enough power for a PW 2 motor F3 and a full rake of AL passenger cars.  When is the new 400 W replacement for the TPC 400 coming?

Tinplate Art posted:

The Z-4000 has UL certification and is the ONLY high power transformer that does.

What does that mean...seriously, I'm not trying to be contrary.

My hat is off to anyone who wants to go to a modern transformer.  

I use one of these on each channel. They are 5 amp resettable. I can run four trains or three with smoke on, and they trip faster than I can hit the remote button. Admittedly not as fast as electronic ones, but no problems with boards as of yet. These came from Grainger.

180 watts is plenty per channel. I have run 2 gg1s with pullmors and 6 lighted heavy weights. Each heavy weight had 4 bulbs. I was pulling 8 amps on start up then dropped to 6 once it got moving. Now if I wanted to triple head gg1s then I would need more power.

I am a big fan of the Lionel 180 brick.

All of the above is true and very good information. But, I for one run with a Z4k because it gives me the variety of application that "JGL" stated above at a very reasonable price. 

I also run a post war ZW and when I calculate the added cost of the Volt and amp meters along with the needed protection circuits the Z4k is still the way to go. 

I have a few ps1 engines and I like the buttons on the MTH model for sending control signals.

I guess it all comes down to how you play and have fun.

Marty made a real technicians statement when he takes his hat off to any of us who invest in the new transformer technology, I know he speaks from years of experience.

As for the bricks, a little too limiting for my wonts. 

Gentlemen,

   Alex does make a very good point, raising and lowering the handles all the time to operate the Z4K, if you have the transformers, out of sight under your platform, can be a real pain.   I actually built a rolling power station because of this, the ZW-L and the old ZW's eliminate this pain in the back side, remember however this comes at a cost some will think is pretty excessive.  

PCRR/Dave

I've posted the same reply to other similar threads.

For my needs, the ZW-L makes sense. I run Legacy, TMCC-1 and conventional locos. 

With just the ZW-L and a Legacy remote/base I can run up to 4 separate loops, and remotely, if I choose. 

Or I can run a couple of loops plus accessories, lights, switches, etc. and set the handles accordingly. I don't have a permanent layout right now so the flexibility is key as our layouts go up and down through the year.

That same capability, created with 4 bricks and 4 powermasters would cost as much as the ZW-L.

The Z4K also makes no sense for my situation as I don't run any Proto-1 locos so no need for the capability and I'd still have to add 4 powermasters to gain CAB-2 remote control of the outputs for conventional locos.

I had the ZW-C with 4 bricks. It performed well and had the same basic capabilities as the ZW-L. However, it didn't have the build quality of the ZW-L and I now don't have a spaghetti bowl of power cords for all of the bricks. Again, a nice benefit when you're a temporary layout guy and constantly setting up and tearing down.

Mike

I have two Z4000's and now I use two ZW-L's. Do I need them? Nope. Do I love to use them? Yes. Does the Lionel lettering light up and the meters look cool? Yessiree !!!

Scrappy

Scrappy,

  Sometimes you make my day buddy!

PCRR/Dave

Agreed on the ZW-L.    Lionel only guys have a lot to be happy about with this monster to replace the old and low powered ZW.    I know many that love this super power source.

I had two Z-4000s from the year that they were introduced to a year or so ago.  For  variety of reasons, I've divested myself of all MTH (no PS-1 headaches again ) including the Z-4000s which have a not-so-attractive exterior design and the feel of the power levers is sluggish at best.  

Honestly, once the Lionel ZW-L was introduced, I wasted no time in placing an order as the look and feel was just what I wanted.  (Not to mention that the initial price was lower than today.)

I just couldn't pass up the retro look, the newer electronics, and the stellar performance.  As I build my new layout, the ZW-L will be a featured piece.

I have three P/W ZWs that will provide other power to the new layout ... but I'm still considering another ZW-L for its "coolness" and performance as well as consolidating power in the two new ZW-Ls.  After all, I can't let Eliot get ahead of me.   

I have two z4k. I run conventional so I use the remote option the z4k that is not available on the zwl. I also have some qsi/ PS1 equipped locos that need the z4k to access the features on those old boards.

PRRHORSESHOECURVE,

I agree  with you and I also use the Side Receiver for the Z4K  Transformer that opens up additional Conventional Track operations, I have 3 Z4k Transformers each having their own side receivers, opening up multiple train running options, which the ZW-L does not incorporate.  Remember however getting these Z4K Side receivers is not always easy, and now they definitely are more expensive, due to their limited accessibility.  

RGD/Dave

"I use the remote option the z4k that is not available on the zwl."

This is not quite correct.  As several have already mentioned the ZW-L most definitely has a remote option,  and indeed has built into it the equivalent of four remotely controllable conventional throttles (Powermasters). 

You do need to buy a Legacy system, as opposed to the remote and receiver with the Z4000. Legacy is considerably more expensive, but is more available and gives one the capacity for TMCC/Legacy command functions, as compared with the Z4000 remote system, which is restricted to remote conventional control.

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

Erie,

   Here is the bottom line for me, I have 3 Z4K's, 2 old ZW's and 2 old KW Transformers, and still do not have even 1/2 the cost invested in them, that I would have, if I purchased just 1 new ZW-L Transformer.   JGL gave you the operational pros and cons of both the ZW-L and the Z4K Transformers, what you now must decide is what you really need and how much you want to invest to power your complete layout.   IMO I would like to add a ZW-L to my layout power station, however I will add a used ZW-L, when I can pick one up at a reasonable cost, and not before.

PCRR/Dave

Scotty we can always use more power!

 

 

How many trains are you running with all that power??  I have a little CW-80 that will run 3 engines pretty fast at only about 50% throttle.   

carsntrains posted:

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

Erie,

   Here is the bottom line for me, I have 3 Z4K's, 2 old ZW's and 2 old KW Transformers, and still do not have even 1/2 the cost invested in them, that I would have, if I purchased just 1 new ZW-L Transformer.   JGL gave you the operational pros and cons of both the ZW-L and the Z4K Transformers, what you now must decide is what you really need and how much you want to invest to power your complete layout.   IMO I would like to add a ZW-L to my layout power station, however I will add a used ZW-L, when I can pick one up at a reasonable cost, and not before.

PCRR/Dave

Scotty we can always use more power!

 

 

How many trains are you running with all that power??  I have a little CW-80 that will run 3 engines pretty fast at only about 50% throttle.   

That's just a very small portion of the club layout that Dave's control panel supplies power to.

graz posted:

carsntrains posted:

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

Erie,

   Here is the bottom line for me, I have 3 Z4K's, 2 old ZW's and 2 old KW Transformers, and still do not have even 1/2 the cost invested in them, that I would have, if I purchased just 1 new ZW-L Transformer.   JGL gave you the operational pros and cons of both the ZW-L and the Z4K Transformers, what you now must decide is what you really need and how much you want to invest to power your complete layout.   IMO I would like to add a ZW-L to my layout power station, however I will add a used ZW-L, when I can pick one up at a reasonable cost, and not before.

PCRR/Dave

Scotty we can always use more power!

 

 

How many trains are you running with all that power??  I have a little CW-80 that will run 3 engines pretty fast at only about 50% throttle.   

That's just a very small portion of the club layout that Dave's control panel supplies power to.

AH ok.    Looking at that picture I was thinking that was an awful lot of power for what I see lol

Dominic Mazoch posted:

180 W per channel may not be enough power for a PW 2 motor F3 and a full rake of AL passenger cars.  When is the new 400 W replacement for the TPC 400 coming?

I am currently running four 180 Watt bricks through two TPC400's.  That's what was available 12-14 years ago when I bought these things.  One pair powers a 220-240' mainline and the other powers two yards and 15 isolated sidings.  It scares me, with the noted backorder on 180W bricks, if my bricks for some reason fail.  At least only one would fail at a time, if at all.    

Dominic touches on my question; what is the present configuration for my set up?  Is there something that replaced the TPC400?  I have no idea since I've had no reason to explore it.  This post made me think about upgrading to the newer technology

I should add, I run several lash ups and am planning on adding some passenger trains.  All are TMCC.  

(I was thinking about upgrading to a Generac 4000XL because it doesn't have handles...LOL!!!)