MTH Command to Conventional

Every time that I have operated any of my MTH PS-2/PS-3 models on a conventional layout, that is all they do is go forward and backward with a whistle and or bell. If the model does NOT see/recognize the "watch-dog timer" data from a TIU, then it is just in conventional. 

Yes, you and I and the fence post know this, but the customer is "always right" and this is what he wants.  He want his new train to be just like his old ones.  What do you do?

I assume he has PS2/3 in it now?  Simple solution he can just use the bell or whistle. Or he could try to find the same model with a mechanical E-Unit and AC motor. Does he just want it to be conventional? 

Simply SHOW HIM! Run his new model on your store layout or test track, and simply un-plug the TIU and run it in conventional. That's what my local hobby shop does, on his test track, i.e. he runs the model in conventional first, and then plugs in the TIU and runs it with DCS or TMCC/Legacy.

He knows this, he runs it.  But he wants the electronics out.  Period.  I know, why? Right?  But that's how he is.  I've been around the block with him on this several times, and I'm getting tired, so....  just do what he wants, eh?

So that means he wants a mechanical e-unit, air whistle, & a mechanical ringing bell?

 

Does he also want the can motor replaced with an open-frame universal motor too?

The only other thing I can think of is gut the electronics and put a simple Williams E-Unit and a steam sound board in it. If he's that much against any electronics he probably should have looked for a pre war engine.   Good luck.

Well, it's your store but, sometimes it's just better to tell him off, and let him walk away. He will NOT get a modern MTH PS-2/PS-3 model without all the "electronics" inside, and if you do remove everything, the warranty is gone and the darned thing is worthless anyway. Tough situation but, it may be time to walk away from the fool!

Set is already out of warranty, and he is willing to pay for the work.  Plus, I would keep the guts.  Not really a bad deal.  But I've never done this before and am unsure of the components needed.  He wants it to emulate a postwar engine as that's the theme of his display.  It's "rivet counter" mentality, only applied a little differently, lol.

Not sure which engine your talking about but it might be worth checking the MTH website to see if they made that model in a conventional pre war version then see if you can find one for him. Maybe give him a trade in on what he has. If he doesn't like the can motor he's out of luck.  The newer tinplate I have has been re tooled to accept the can motor and flywheel.  No going back to the old AC "growler" as far as I know.

Just give the customer what he wants.  He probably has heard all the "horror" stories like many here on the forum like to expouse about the electronics failures.  He is willing to pay for what he wants.  Why should you be so against selling the customer with money in his pocket what he would like to buy.  If you are uncomfortable making the changes, there are many here on the forum that would very possibly make the change and consider keeping the DCS guts as most of the payment which only gives you a chance to make a little extra.

 

You know it is much easier to keep a customer than it is to find a new one!

 

Happy railroading,

Don

 

Not that simple.  Sounds like he wants to turn an orange into an apple!

Depending on the Model, MTH sells the Traditional Motor complete.  You remove his, install the new.  Done.  But each model is different.  So what model is it?  G

I have seen some new motor assembly's at York in there parts booth.

 

If the aim is to "emulate" a postwar engine, and it does not necessarily have to be an authentic vintage open-frame motor etc., then I agree with Chris. I have had great success with taking out the PS2 boards and replacing them with a Williams #00249 Reverse board and with a piggy-back Williams sound board.  They are inexpensive ($35 for the reverse board, and $40 to $70 for one of the various sound boards which come with speaker).  It provides smooth, reliable sequential forward-neutral-reverse-neutral operation.  You retain the can motor, just replace the electronics.   It's a very simple plug-in installation. The Williams board has 4 leads: two motor leads, one pickup roller hot, and one frame ground.  The sound board you choose just plugs into the reverse board.  I get my Williams boards from TrainWorld, I am sure they are available many places.

 

- david

They sell sets with PS3 and Traditional FWD/REV that is all.

Unfortunately, due to an uncooperative ISP, I cannot look up the model number.  It is O-gauge tinplate in NH orange and black, a passenger set.  It is at least PS2, might be 3, over a year old.  Striking set, but I doubt there any others available to swap.  It was a special order for him.

That is what I'm trying to do, sigh, and I am able to do the work, I just need to know what my options are.

 

By Jove!  I think you've got it!  lol  He wants all his trains to be old school in terms of operating.  So maybe the Williams boards will do it.  I also like the thought that GGG posted about, in that MTH makes a similar set up that I can swap out. 

 The motor being DC is kicker #1, the room for relays is kicker #2.

   An ac motor makes it "easy"

    A DC forward /neutral / forward, wouldn't be near as hard to do. Run that by him.

 

  The polarity swap for DC reverse might be tricky to keep it small, and still inside the engine. A tether to the relays in a tender, and I my "on the spot" opinion, it can be done.

Grab a max amp draw off it, for relay sizing.

 

   Didn't Williams use DC Pitmans and electro-mechanical relays at one time in the 70's?  That wiring might "cheat the puzzle".

I know that what this customer is asking for seems a bit odd.  And yes, he is trying to make and Orange into at least a Tangelo, lol, but it's what he wants.  We did have a hiccup with this unit when new, don't remember now what, so I think that is what has him spooked. 

 

GGG, I'll be able to look up the particulars when I get to the store tomorrow and have reliable internet.  Will update the post then.

 

Thanks everyone for your input.  Greatly appreciated. 

One other option is to swap out the engine for a similar Williams engine. Williams' engines are inexpensive and reliable and are available with simple controls. Sell the set engine as a separate item in your store.

You may be able to re-use the MTH sound board and speaker and hook it into the Williams reversing board, I have not investigated that option.

 

Adriatic, the Williams reversing board includes a bridge rectifier, so the DC can motor is not an issue, it is what the board is designed for.  Just hook up the 4 leads as I described.  The board is quite small, much smaller than the MTH PS2 board, it will fit anywhere.

 

david

 

 

 

Cheryl....

 

Taking a shot here....

 

Is this the unit of which you speak?.....

 

Tinplate Link

 

The only 'hiccup' I recall was that the headlight bulb(s) not fully inserted, did not light at first.  Easy fix.  Unit was demo'ed in conventional.  Happy customer.

 

Not as knowledgeable as others responding above, but the Williams board idea sounds really good to me. 

 

You could call John L, too.....he may have done something similar.  Besides, he has some items in the back room to be picked up. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yup, that's the bugger.  11-6050-1.  I'll wait to see if GGG checks back in and we'll take it from there.  Unfortunately MTH does not provide a parts diagram for this little gem.  So I don't know what the innards look like.  It is PS3 BTW.  Thanks for the input!

It should be fairly simple to rip out the electronics and replace them with a simple reverse board.  Lionel has a reverse board that has the directional lighting, so you could keep the headlights working properly.  I believe Dallee also offers a directional lighting option.  The sound can be done with the ERR RailSounds Commander.  You can have engine sounds or just the whistle/bell, your choice by jumper or switch.

 

Of course, he still has electronics, and he could have the same operation with PS/3 electronics, but if he insists, this is the way to do it.

I thought the customer wants to make his electromechanical, without a board.

He misses the sound is my bet. He might be appeased with just a "knocker"

(the "free game" solenoid on a pinball machine)

 

I think if you read this it will help though. I posted a request for the diagram.

 But I'm pretty sure it would be like a copy of a dc reverse loop on a DPDT relay on the e-units finger contacts. The ac just turns the drum.

 https://ogrforum.com/t...ith-bridge-rectifier

 

Hopefully he can accept a bridge rectifier or a few diodes in the mix 

 

Cheryl,  MTH shows that in the traditional version too.  Might be cheaper to just buy that one.  But I would e-mail parts and see if they sell the whole traditional motor separately.  That would be the way to go and give you the guts for a PS-3 engine including motor.   G

Anyone see issue with this working? (ac powered Lionel type-unit, with DC on the fingers)

Is this the engine?

 

 

If so, the traditional version is available for $290.00

 

Steve

 

Thank you for all the replies, lots of possibilities here.  I'll have to get back with the customer now and see which way he will want to go.  I am guessing the traditional version is much like the pre/post war engines?  Sans the growling?

 

Thanks again,  a great bunch to work with

Does the customer realize that that the original engine this model represents predates some of the postwar features he wants, specifically 3-position E-units & whistle?

 

Just curious if he wants it old school if he wants avoid being anachronistic feature-wise in the process.

Good point John.

 

Ways to increase you word power?

 

Digest smigest.... Read a Korling post!

 

(I do look forward to being stumped by you on occasion. Especially since I don't get the Reader's Digest anymore ) 

 

 

Mechanical reversers rule!!!

Ms Cheryl,

I understand his logic and agree without any reservations. Dave's (hojak) idea would be fairly economical and easy to do. Your customer is far from being a"fool". Please, just consider the source. I know of others taking the same route. He is wanting the look and feel of tinplate without what some would call the"electronic headache".

So why did he not buy the Traditional version?  The very reason MTH makes it.   G

At the time he purchased, both versions were the same amount of money, so we opted for the PS3.  He also purchased the 3 car set and the additional coach.  He is not a collector per se.  He just wants simple control.  We sold him the set so I'm trying to get it to the way he wants it.  The why's at this point are moot, I'm interested in how's and a couple solutions have been presented.  I will pursue this further with a couple guys I know that work on trains.  FWIW

Why can't you just buy the traditional version and swap  shells and just be done with it? That way he gets what he wants and maintains his original engine shell and you don't have to worry about all of the compatibility/install issues. In turn you can charge him a little bit for labor and you keep the PS3 engine, with the new shell, to sell/part out.  Plus since you're a dealer, you get the new engine at cost anyway which will help in factoring in cost, time and hassle.  Maybe I missed something?
John Korling raises a very good point though.

This was a special order.  We do not stock Tin Plate.