MTH DCS Remote Commander Watchdog & WIU w/Wi-Fi App?

You say you can't add engines with the modified DCS-RC active.  But let's say you do add an engine (by temporarily removing power to the DCS-RC).  Can you now control that engine with the DCS-RC active?  In other words, is it JUST the "add engine" function that is blocked?

If ALL functions are blocked with the modified DCS-RC powered, can you open the DCS-RC and remove the tiny WD circuit-board?  The idea here is to isolate whether the problem is the stock DCS-RC itself...or only if the DCS-RC has been modified with the WD circuit board.

I've tested any way but Sunday with my layout, and I can't get the WD generator to block adding or starting engines.  I also have actually tested his WD generator here with the same results.  The only significant difference is he is using the WiFi adapter and I use the DCS remotes.  I can't imagine why that would be a factor since the track signals should be the same by the time the exit the TIU.

I'm at a loss what is going on or why this is happening.

Thank you both for your support on this!!!

It is JUST the “add engine” function that is blocked.  All other control functions appear to be working properly.

As per your suggestion Stan2004, I removed the WD circuit board from the DCS-RC and the “add-engine” function works perfectly (using WIU and iOS Wi-Fi App) as do all other control functions.

After reinstall of the WD circuit board the “add engine” function again fails with “Request Time Out” message. ☹

As he stated, Gunrunnerjohn tested my DCS-RD WD successfully on his layout with the DCS handheld remote.

I am hoping someone on the Forum who is also running a DCS-RC WD can test with a WIU and the Wi-Fi application and let us know their results.

Thanks,

Joe

GRJ, FWIW, I haven't had anyone report this problem either? Of course, you would have been the first to know if there ever was a report.

I haven't heard anyone else having this issue.  A couple people couldn't get the WD to keep things silent, and I actually tested those here and they worked fine.  I have to chalk this up to some difference in the signal propagation in the respective layouts, I can't imagine any other cause at this point.

GRJ, you may recall I had the same problem on a piece of test track before I started rebuilding my layout.  Also, I haven't heard anyone yet confirm that they are able to add engines while using the DCS-RD WD with the WIU & Wi-Fi App.

My guess is the "find engine" procedure differs between the WIU and DCS-remote.  Specifically, the WIU version is being "tricked" by the once-per-second WD packet from the modified DCS-RC.  So when the WIU sends out DCS packets trying to establish communication with an engine at some particular address, it gets back the DCS-RC WD and thinks it found an engine.  Then it tries to confirm asking for additional identification but the DCS-RC only responds with another WD one second later.  The WIU then times out and reports an error.  This is just speculation and presumes the WIU is intimately involved with the algorithm and timing of the "find engine" function.

Seems there was a DIY circuit board that would flash an LED when it detected DCS activity on the track.  It didn't decode the content of the packets but simply that there is something that looks like DCS activity.  If such a gadget were at hand, I suppose it would be interesting to watch the flashing LED pattern when a WIU does a "find engine" vs. when a DCS-remote does a "find engine."  Of course this is simply to establish blame as it's not clear what could be done about it!

My question is whether there's some practical method to only power the modified DCS-RC when it is truly needed?  As I see it, most common application is when a previously unpowered yard siding is powered and you want any DCS engines on that siding to power up in command-mode and silent.  The point being there is some action the user must take to turn on the siding.  Could this same action also activate the DCS-RC...perhaps for just a few seconds and then turn off?

Powering it for a few seconds is somewhat tricky unless your siding configuration is really simple.  For instance, I have the WD box on my TIU channel with my sidings, and there are six switches sidings now, and I'm adding more in the future.  The way I see it, I'd have to have a control that is independently sensing whether any siding has been powered up and run the WD for a few seconds.  While it's not that difficult to build something that would do the job, finding an "off the shelf" solution doesn't seem likely.

That's interesting that a couple layouts had problems with the PBWs. Would love to know what the difference is on those, as I'm sure you would too.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Powering it for a few seconds is somewhat tricky unless your siding configuration is really simple.  For instance, I have the WD box on my TIU channel with my sidings, and there are six switches sidings now, and I'm adding more in the future.  The way I see it, I'd have to have a control that is independently sensing whether any siding has been powered up and run the WD for a few seconds.  While it's not that difficult to build something that would do the job, finding an "off the shelf" solution doesn't seem likely.

Agreed. There's 0% chance of finding an off-the-shelf solution.  But isn't that where we are in the first place?  That is, the modified DCS-RC is itself a response to not being able to find an "off the shelf" solution to powering up yard sidings, roundhouse spurs, etc.

Perhaps putting cart before horse, but suppose it indeed turns out the WIU simply does not allow the "find engine" function in the presence of a modified DCS-RC.  I'd suggest there's again a 0% chance of MTH or its successor modifying the WIU code to accommodate a modified DCS-RC!

Thus, OGR being a discussion forum, it seems reasonable to ponder how much DIY and coin could effect a solution.

I found this diagram from a previous OGR thread.

In this example, 3 AIU Accessory ports control the power to 3 yard sidings.  When power is applied to any of the sidings, a timer module momentary applies power to a stock (unmodified) DCS-RC to generate the WD and send it to the newly powered siding.  About $10 out-of-pocket in addition to the DCS-RC itself.

The above example is no doubt apples-oranges to the OP's application.  It may be toggle switches controlling power to sidings rather than an AIU Accessory relay.  Etc. 

Looks like a reasonable solution Stan.

While I wish adding new engines was a daily chore. ;-)   perhaps the simplest solution in my case would be to install a normally closed switch between the DCS-RC WD and the yard/sidings.  I then open the switch at the same time I press "add engines" and hold it open for the few seconds required for the system to successfully find and register the new engines. 

I'm still hoping someone out there with a DCS-RD WD and a WIU can please help us further troubleshoot this.

Thanks.

It's been 10 days without a reply since my ask so I am going to assume I am the only DCS operator on the forum that is running this unique configuration of WIU and TIU with a DCS-RD w/WD.  ;-)   Let's try another way..... Perhaps there is a good hearted soul on the forum who would be willing to loan me a spare DCS remote (not RC remote) so I can do the further testing myself and try to further isolate this problem?  I would only need it for a day or two and I will gladly pay the shipping and insurance both ways.   I would be willing to buy a used DCS remote if someone actually has one to sell at a fair and reasonable price.  ;-)  (NOT *bay prices!)  Thanks!

I'm not crazy about shipping my remotes off, given the fact that they're no longer available.  However, I do have the WIU, just haven't configured it again after getting the layout going.  It may not happen immediately, but soon I should be able to test with a WIU, TIU, and WD generator box.

Thanks GRJ!  Yes, while it’s low risk it’s still a risk and I expected folks won’t want to risk shipping them….. but I thought I would give it a try. 😊   

I am looking forward to hearing your results after you have had time to install the WIU.

Thanks!!

I am using the DCS Remote Commander with the WIU and I had a similar problem. If a locomotive (powered up in silent DCS mode)  was on the inactive list I had to try several times to get the app to move it to the active list. I solved the problem using a similar solution to the one proposed by Stan above. I use an Arduino to control the relays for all my sidings, so I just programmed the Arduino to momentarily turn on a relay and power up the Remote Commander for 3 seconds whenever I turn on a siding.

@Porschev posted:

... perhaps the simplest solution in my case would be to install a normally closed switch between the DCS-RC WD and the yard/sidings.  I then open the switch at the same time I press "add engines" and hold it open for the few seconds required for the system to successfully find and register the new engines.

Or.

Install a normally open switch between the DCS-RC WD and the yard/sidings. 

Then close the switch at the same time a new track is powered and hold it closed for the few seconds required for any newly powered engine to see the WD and start up silently and in command mode.

johnf reports "Add Engine" works sometimes.  Everyone can draw their own conclusions, but this suggests there might be other DCS commands that the DCS-RC WD affects when used with the WIU.  You may not be seeing it but it could be slowing down response times.  I realize you turn on a new track more frequently than you add a new engine so there will be more manual button-pressing.

I don't think I'm going to be much help in diagnosing this "failure".

I just configured my MTH WiFi, I'm using the "free" MTH DCS Application.  I added three engines, a PS/2 and two PS/2 engines.  I was able to add all of them and control them with no issue.  The WD Generator was in operation on that power district the whole time.  I went to a different power district that also has the WD Generator active and added my Aerotrain (after deleting a couple engines, the "free" app only allows three maximum.  That one added right away and I had full control.

My WiFi is configured to connect to my home network.  That  allows me to have control and also Internet access as normal on the phone.  If you connect directly to the DCS WiFi box, you lose Internet connectivity on your smart device.  Obviously, I'd rather not have to swap wireless networks whenever I want to run the DCS locomotives.  With my configuration, I can just pop out the phone and fire up the DCS WiFi app and start running trains.

I don't know what the difference is, I'd have to guess something about wiring/signal strength.

I did a little more experimenting, and I found issues with the application, but still didn't identify any change in behavior using the WD Generator.  I splurged and updated to the "standard" application for $5.  When I fire up the application, all the engines are in the inactive list.  I don't see any way to move them to the active list, that's a bummer. I'm guessing the scan is only done on initial power-up, and since the WiFi and TIU are powered up before the sidings, the engines get stuck in the inactive list.

So, I go search for a new engine, but the four I have loaded are all the ones that have power, so it says no new engines.

What do you know, when I come back to the engine list, now all of those powered up engines are moved to the active list!  I now have full control, all seems well.  I repeated this test with the WD Generators unplugged, and the results were exactly the same.  AAMOF, I don't see any effect of having the WD Generators plugged in as far as the WiFi application is concerned.

Final test, I powered up the WiFi and TIU and gave them time to get fully initialized.  All sidings off, and the DCS WD Generator unconnected.  I was thinking maybe only when the TIU channel becomes active will the DCS WiFi App see the status change of engines that are now powered.  WRONG!  I powered up the channel with one of the engines on the engine list, it didn't budge from the inactive list.  The only way to get it onto the active list seems to be to do a search for new engines, then it finds the old engines that are powered up and moves them to the active list.

This is the kind of Wonky behavior that made me stick the WiFi unit in the closet in the first place!

Thanks for the all the additional testing John!  Your successful testing of "adding new engines" with your WIU and the APP now gives me a benchmark to work from.   I now have a couple directions to go in...  I am currently using the PH135 bricks.  I will try with a different power supply although I doubt that would be an issue.  If that still fails I am going to reload the WIU firmware.  If still no luck, I am going to borrow another WIU and try that.   These are the only two devices that have not been changed yet.  I have swapped the TIU for a Rev L and tested with numerous PS3 engines on test track and my layout with no success "adding new engines" with the DC-RD WD on.  I will keep you posted.  Thanks again for the additional testing!!!

I'm at a loss at to what's happening.  Like I say, it seems to act identically for me with or without the WD Generator active.  I find it odd I have to go through the "Add New Engine" to get stuff moved to the active list, that makes having stuff on a siding and powering it up individually with the WD Generator keeping them quiet a bit of a PITA.  Of course, the DCS remote doesn't have any of those issues, works like a champ for this function.

Once the engines have been added you should NOT have to add them again to move them from inactive to active.  After adding power to the siding you will have to pull/swipe down on the engines list to force a new read.   It should find the engine and move it from the inactive list to the active list.

FYI, I tried a small starter kit ac transformer but "add engine" would still fail with "Request Timeout."  I then reloaded firmware 1.10 into the WIU and again "Request Timeout."   I deleted the iOS App and reloaded but again no success.  At this point I can't think of anything else to try except swapping the WIU since everything else has been changed.  I know you tested my DCS-RD w/WD but just for giggles I am going to try it also on my local shop's layout.  Other than this I am at a total loss and I am beginning to feel defeated.

I wonder if there's a difference between the Apple version and the Android version, I'm running it on Android, I don't do Apple.

The DCS-RC with the WD board is pretty simple, I'm 99.999% sure yours works just like all the others.

I did miss the refresh symbol on the left of the engine banner that does a read.  I tried swiping down the list, that didn't do it.  Of course, we were always cautioned not to use that with the remote for the very reason that it moved all the powered down engines to the inactive list and it was a PITA to bring them back.

The indicated symbol does the read command.

I am on Apple iOS so we are again not "apples to apples." ;-)   I am going to try my iPhone with the APP and the DCS-RD w/WD on the shop layout to see if may indeed be related to the iOS APP. 

Regarding your screenshot above with Android; if you select the down chevron/arrow on the upper right do you get the active and inactive engines list along with the ability to add MTH and TMCC/Legacy Engines?  Can you then swipe/pull down on that white screen like I can do on the iOS APP?

I get the engine display, but all of them are in the inactive list.  That's also the screen where you add a new engine.  I have to either do an Add Engine or use that Read button I illustrated.  The only way I move them to the active list from the screen on the left is by attempting an add, then powered engines on the inactive list will move up.  For the screen on the right, I can use that read icon and any powered engines on the inactive list will move up.

Time to switch to an Android phone.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I get the engine display, but all of them are in the inactive list.  That's also the screen where you add a new engine.  I have to either do an Add Engine or use that Read button I illustrated.  The only way I move them to the active list from the screen on the left is by attempting an add, then powered engines on the inactive list will move up.  For the screen on the right, I can use that read icon and any powered engines on the inactive list will move up.

 

From this screen a simple downward swipe will perform a read.

@H1000 posted:

From this screen a simple downward swipe will perform a read.

Which is exactly the same as the read icon I pointed out.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Which is exactly the same as the read icon I pointed out.

Correct. It's just another way to perform the read function on this screen without doing an add engine or returning to the home screen and tapping the read button.

The bummer is the DCS remote doesn't need that step, I just select a stored engine and start it up.  I don't know why the app needs to actually read and shove all the engines to the inactive list by default.

While I don't do IOS, I have three of the watchdog generators, one one each half of the layout and one for the sidings and have never had a problem adding anything. I use the wifi with android and never use the remote. It is still new in a drawer. I have to use the refresh button (the little circular arrow) each time I fire the layout up to see the engines in the active list, but I think this is just the way the mobile app is configured and it becomes automatic at least for me.

Thank you for the confirmation that the "Add Engine" function works correctly with the Android APP and the DCS-RC w/WD.  Now I just need to get my hands on an Android device. :-)    I am still going to test the DCS-RC w/WD with the iOS APP on another layout this afternoon to try to determine if it is an issue with the iOS APP or not.  I will let you all know how it goes!  Thanks!!!!

The next guy that comes to visit with an Android phone you just have to confiscate it for a half hour and load the free app!   I could dig out my old iPad and see if the IOS app works on that.

@Porschev posted:

Thank you for the confirmation that the "Add Engine" function works correctly with the Android APP and the DCS-RC w/WD.  Now I just need to get my hands on an Android device. :-)    I am still going to test the DCS-RC w/WD with the iOS APP on another layout this afternoon to try to determine if it is an issue with the iOS APP or not.  I will let you all know how it goes!  Thanks!!!!

If you looking to do this cheap, look at a TracFone on eBay. I see these sell for as little as $15 (refurbished). You don't have to activate it just connect it to WiFi, download what you need and go.

I'll bet you already have half a dozen friends that have old Android phones in a closet from upgrading.  Those are perfectly suitable to use for this application.

$15 is a cheap investment into a device that can be used to run your trains and troubleshoot any Apple vs. Android problems you may have down the road. Sure beats asking your buddies to come over so you can borrow their phone only to have them stand around and watch you tinker with your toys. But if they have a free old phone they are willing to give you, then $15 saved!!

Today I tested the DCS-RD w/WD using my iPhone on the local shop layout and I got the same error message: "Request Timeout" when attempting to add MTH Engines.  Unfortunately, nobody in the store had an Android device with the APP or that they were willing to let me test with.  :-(   So I stopped at the local Best Buy on my way home and picked-up a new $39. LG Android TracFone to play with.  (Thank you for the tip H1000!)  And the result.... drum roll please... the Android phone and APP worked perfectly with the DCS-RD w/WD !!!  I was able to repetitively add and delete engines with no more "Request Timeout" error messages.

John, before we conclude that there is indeed an issue with the iOS APP working with the DCS-RD w/WD; can you please test with the iOS APP using your iPad? While it's probably unlikely, I should rule out my iPhone.

It's the crappy Apple application.  I got a timeout, unplugged the DCS-RC connection and tried again, added the engine and was able to run it without an issue.