MTH Premium App and Legacy Engines

Thanks Jason,

Please let Barry B. know this so I won't be bugging him anymore. Ha,HA!

MTH posted:

So the issue has come up recently with the release of the new MTH DCS Premium Wifi App - Running Legacy Engines in Legacy mode with the new MTH Premium Wifi App. 

What you'll need are two pieces of equipment from Lionel in order to run your Legacy engines in Legacy Mode using the MTH DCS Wifi Premium App:

http://www.lionel.com/products...erter-2-ser2-6-81326

http://www.lionel.com/products...power-supply-6-81499

Without the above two items you can cable directly to the Legacy Base, BUT...you can only run engines in TMCC mode. So when you select the engine type when you add TMCC/Legacy engines you'd have to select TMCC. With the above two items you can select Legacy and they'll run in Legacy mode.

MTH

I was wondering about having to use the SER2. 

MartyE posted:

MTH posted:

So the issue has come up recently with the release of the new MTH DCS Premium Wifi App - Running Legacy Engines in Legacy mode with the new MTH Premium Wifi App. 

What you'll need are two pieces of equipment from Lionel in order to run your Legacy engines in Legacy Mode using the MTH DCS Wifi Premium App:

http://www.lionel.com/products...erter-2-ser2-6-81326

http://www.lionel.com/products...power-supply-6-81499

Without the above two items you can cable directly to the Legacy Base, BUT...you can only run engines in TMCC mode. So when you select the engine type when you add TMCC/Legacy engines you'd have to select TMCC. With the above two items you can select Legacy and they'll run in Legacy mode.

MTH

I was wondering about having to use the SER2. 

I don't have those either.

Lantom posted:

 

I don't have those either.

Good news is they are relatively inexpensive compared to the other LCS modules. 

I predict a large demand for SER2s. 

How do you set this up?

CAPPilot posted:

How do you set this up?

The power supply has a 9 pin connecting and a PDI connection. The 9pin plugs into the Legacy base. The PDI plugs into the SER2. The 9 pin from the TIU plugs into the SER2 9 pin connector. 

Here is the SER2 manual.  

Here's a link to the SER2 manual, on page 13 there's a photo of the connection between TIU and SER2.

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...50SER2UsersGuide.pdf

FYI, Marty and I figured this out a few hours ago.

As far as how to hook all of this up, do the following:

• Disconnect the cable that connects the TIU to the Legacy Command Base, at the Command Base end.
• Install the Lionel LCS and SER2 modules as per their instructions.
• Test LCS on your layout.
• Reconnect the cable that was disconnected above from the command base, to the SER 2 module.

That should do it.

Thanks to you and Marty for your efforts. 

Please confirm that you also need the MTH 50-1032 cable. The older 50-1018 cable will not work.

George

George,

Yes, the 50-1032 is required. However, anyone who currently has Legacy connected to a TIU successfully already has that cable.

I just spoke with MTH and I now understand what's required, and why it's required, as regards using Legacy engines in Legacy mode with the Premium DCS App.

There are 2 different scenarios:

• Those who already have LCS installed on their layouts, need the SER2 module referenced in the initial post of this thread. However, instead of the referenced cable, what's required is a different cable from Lionel. This would be a PDI to PDI cable that needs to be just long enough to connect the SER2 module to an existing LCS module.
• Those who do not have LCS already installed need only the two items referenced in the initial post. However, that setup will not allow operation of either of Lionel's two WiFi apps, LCS or iCab. Also, there is no documentation available regarding thisexact setup. I'll provide that documentation both briefly on this thread later today and in detail in the new DCS WiFi Companion book.

By the way, the reason (subject to verification) that the SER2 is required at all is because the Lionel Legacy command base can only accept TMCC commands via it's 9-pin serial port, not Legacy commands. That's why Legacy engines can work just fine without the SER2 module, however, only when configured  in the app as TMCC engines.

Hopefully, I've clarified the situation rather than confusing it further.  

Refer to my post below for instructions for connecting the SER2.

Thanks MartyE, I installed the two Lionel items the way you described and now all works well.

To connect an SER2 to an existing LCS configuration, simply obtain the SER2 and the PDI cable, and follow Lionel's instructions.

To connect an SER2 to a Legacy Command Base without having previously installed LCS, proceed as follows:

• Connect the referenced cable's 9-pin serial cable end to the serial port on the Legacy command base. (http://www.lionel.com/products...power-supply-6-81499)
• Connect the cable's PDI end to either PDI port on the SER2.
• Connect an MTH #50-1032 cable between the TIU's serial port and the SER2's serial port using the end that would normally connect to the Legacy command base. If the TIU is already connected to the WIU using its serial port, you'll need a simple serial Y cable with 1 male end and 2 female ends.
• Plug the AC connector on the referenced cable into an AC outlet.

That should do it.

Thanks again for your help everyone.

Not to beat a dead horse, but why were some people able to run Legacy engines before Jason posted that you need the Lionel SER and cables to run Legacy engines?

Anyone who had LCS and an SER2 installed, including Marty Fitzhenry and yours truly, had no issues at all. That's why neither of us had any idea that there was any kind of an issue.

That explains everything, thanks for clarifying this for me.

Iam running Legacy/TMCC just fine with the app in Legacy , doing MU's too, the app just cant find DCS engines. Iam at 6.0 and it all runs fine with the remote

Don,

I responded to your same post on another thread.

Barry Broskowitz posted:

Anyone who had LCS and an SER2 installed, including Marty Fitzhenry and yours truly, had no issues at all. That's why neither of us had any idea that there was any kind of an issue.

exactly.  That was my scenario as well and why I was stumped why mine worked when others didn't.   I didn't realize there was this issue hanging out there, and felt badly that I could not offer any more assistance.

This is one thing I love about this place is all of us working to help get things figured out for each other!

MTH posted:

So the issue has come up recently with the release of the new MTH DCS Premium Wifi App - Running Legacy Engines in Legacy mode with the new MTH Premium Wifi App. 

What you'll need are two pieces of equipment from Lionel in order to run your Legacy engines in Legacy Mode using the MTH DCS Wifi Premium App:

http://www.lionel.com/products...erter-2-ser2-6-81326

http://www.lionel.com/products...power-supply-6-81499

Without the above two items you can cable directly to the Legacy Base, BUT...you can only run engines in TMCC mode. So when you select the engine type when you add TMCC/Legacy engines you'd have to select TMCC. With the above two items you can select Legacy and they'll run in Legacy mode.

MTH

Can MTH post a HOW-TO video on their youtube channel on how to setup this up? 

BTW it would be awesome if MTH would post HOW-TO Videos about such equipment on setups and troubleshooting the equipment. Such things as TIU and AIU devices and or the new Wifi App.

Some folks are visual learners and not all can just read a pamphlet or manual and understand all that is required. 

Hope u all had a great York. The premium app works just fine for all MTH equipment. However Legacy is another story. We have an existing setup for Legacy. We added a PDI to PDI cable and an SER 2 as Barry has advised.  We add a Legacy engine and it does not show the address we put in. Always shows as 1. Add another it shows as 2. We know our hookup is correct as when we execute commands for the Legacy engine we see lights flashing on WIU, SER2, and Legacy command base. Also tried to change the address but goes back to 1 or 2. The train does something when execute a command. For instance, when the whistle is pressed the train begins to move slowly. Could there be a problem in the translation data in the Legacy base. We are stumped. All help is appreciated. Btw, we run 5 TIU's in Super mode. 

Jeff

MND8814 posted:

 

Can MTH post a HOW-TO video on their youtube channel on how to setup this up? 

BTW it would be awesome if MTH would post HOW-TO Videos about such equipment on setups and troubleshooting the equipment. Such things as TIU and AIU devices and or the new Wifi App.

Some folks are visual learners and not all can just read a pamphlet or manual and understand all that is required. 

What I would want right now is a diagram (hand drawn okay) of the setup, one for Android and one for iOS if different.  This would help clear up a lot of questions some have.  Thanks

Jeff,

We added a PDI to PDI cable and an SER 2 as Barry has advised.  We add a Legacy engine and it does not show the address we put in. Always shows as 1. Add another it shows as 2.

It's al good and correct.  

What you're seeing is not the Legacy ID#, rather, it's the DCS "dummy placeholder" number that DCS assigns the engine in the DCSD engine list. This is exactly how TMCC/Legacy engines appear in the DCS Remote.

You cannot change this number. However, you can change the engine's actual Legacy or TMCC ID#.

Hi,

If I am daisy chaining multiple SER2's, does each SER2 need its own power supply?

no.

Barry, OK I understand the "dummy placeholder" number. However, the engines do not respond to any of the legacy commands. If you press the whistle  whistle the train begins to move slowly. Nothing reacts to the proper commands. This is also what I was referring to in my earlier post.

Independently, icab and DCS premium work very well. Just cant get the premium app to run Lionel properly.

Any advice?

Jeff

I have an old TIU with a serial port, my WIU connects to this old TIU through the serial port.

How would I connect the LCS SER2 to my TIU in this scenario?

Craig,

How would I connect the LCS SER2 to my TIU in this scenario?

By using g a serial Y.cable with 1 male and 2 female ends.

Jeff,

However, the engines do not respond to any of the legacy commands. If you press the whistle  whistle the train begins to move slowly. Nothing reacts to the proper commands.

Those of us who beta-tested the feature had no issues with operating Legacy engines using the app.

I haven't a clue other than to make sure that you've correctly configured the Legacy engine in its Settings screen.

Craignor posted:

Hi,

If I am daisy chaining multiple SER2's, does each SER2 need its own power supply?

To expand on what Rudy said, 1 power supply. There is no scenario that I know of where you can even use an additionally supply. The power is daisy chained along the PDI cable. 

I realize this is more of an LCS question than a related MFJ question...but...since you're all present...

Is there a limit as to how many LCS modules can be daisy chained thru PDI cables with the given one power supply? Any limit on length of the daisy chain of PDI cables? As I understand it, in general, the Legacy base cannot support more than one nominal connection load. And thus the SER2 was born to buffer the Legacy base serial port as to loading.

cjack posted:

I realize this is more of an LCS question than a related MFJ question...but...since you're all present...

Is there a limit as to how many LCS modules can be daisy chained thru PDI cables with the given one power supply? Any limit on length of the daisy chain of PDI cables? As I understand it, in general, the Legacy base cannot support more than one nominal connection load. And thus the SER2 was born to buffer the Legacy base serial port as to loading.

This was asked at the 2013 Legacy meeting. This was the response from Jon Zahornacky. 

JZ] Yes, the supply will cover 99% of all installations. The IR tracks are 20MA loads, and we have One Amp available on the power supply. The WiFI draws about 300MA, and the ASC2, BPC2, AMC2, etc - will draw LT 50MA. If you run out of power, we have a booster supply concept in mind to address those situations.

Since we havent seen the booster I suspect there hasn't been a need for it yet. 

Thanks Barry and Marty for answering my questions.

The other part of the question is how long the cables can be.  That would be a somewhat complex computation as you'd have to tally up all the current draws of the various components, then figure out the cable lengths and the location of each component on the network.  The actual total will be highly dependent on the exact configuration of all your LCS boxes and where they appear on the daisy-chain network.  If all the loads were at the end of a long cable, it's a lot easier.   Given that the WiFi will probably be pretty close to the SER2 as a rule, you are probably just looking at the other components.  I'd try to keep the cables to the ASC2, BPC2, AMC2, etc fairly short to the SER2, and then the sensor tracks would probably not be much of a factor until you got fifteen or twenty of them out there.

sphillyj posted:

Hope u all had a great York. The premium app works just fine for all MTH equipment. However Legacy is another story. We have an existing setup for Legacy. We added a PDI to PDI cable and an SER 2 as Barry has advised.  We add a Legacy engine and it does not show the address we put in. Always shows as 1. Add another it shows as 2. We know our hookup is correct as when we execute commands for the Legacy engine we see lights flashing on WIU, SER2, and Legacy command base. Also tried to change the address but goes back to 1 or 2. The train does something when execute a command. For instance, when the whistle is pressed the train begins to move slowly. Could there be a problem in the translation data in the Legacy base. We are stumped. All help is appreciated. Btw, we run 5 TIU's in Super mode. 

Jeff

I'm having the exact same issue.  First off, I'm running Android which seems to be an issue with the DCS app.  I'm running 1.60 on the Legacy base and Cab2, 6.0 on the TIU and handheld, and 1.1 on the WIU.  I do not have Lionel's WiFi unit.

I understand the DCS "dummy placeholder" number (#1) , and the DCS app is showing the correct Legacy ID# is set (#92).  My Cab2 correctly runs TMCC/Legacy, the DCS handheld correctly runs DCS, the DCS app also correctly runs DCS (love it), but the DCS app will not run TMCC/Legacy.  Everything is wired per everyone's guidance and the SER2 manual.  Like Jeff, when I execute commands for the Legacy engine I see lights flashing on the WIU, SER2, and Legacy command base.  However, I get no reaction from the engine.

I'll work on this again tomorrow.

The Ford Model Railroad club has the DB9 port on the Legacy base connected to our 2 Track Power Controlers.  How do we add the Lionel serial box to this setup?  Can we use a Y DB9 connector cable to connect the base, TPC's, and serial box or do we have to use the screw connection on the serial box?  Thanks Bruce

Bruce,

Can we use a Y DB9 connector cable to connect the base, TPC's, and serial box

Yes, you can use a serial Y cable.

I guess I missed it somewhere, but you cannot input a Legacy/TMCC engine number higher than 90 into the DCS app.  The DCS app says add a number between 1-99, but don't believe it.

I have been trying for two days to get a TMCC engine and a Legacy engine to operate with the DCS app.  The TMCC engine has an address of 92, and the Legacy engine has an address of 96.  Could not get either one to respond to commands from the DCS app, but both ran well with the Cab2.  And as I mentioned above, all the appropriate lights blinked correctly. 

Going through all the MTH and Lionel literature I came across a statement for the DCS handheld that said you could not load a TMCC engine number higher than 90.  Well, even though the DCS app said up to 99, I reset the engine number for the Legacy engine to 1 through the DCS app and the engine worked.  I then set the TMCC engine to 48 and it worked (sort of, see below).

Number one recommendation to MTH on their next app update is to change the TMCC/Legacy engine number change instruction to say 1-90!!!   Two days wasted.

By the way, the TMCC engine has its issues using the DCS app.  Unlike the Legacy engine, commands are not always accepted and one time it and the app froze up with the whistle constantly on with the virtual whistle handle down.  Had to shut down power and close the app to get things working again.  The engine runs well with the Cab2.  I'll try some other engines and report back.