MTH remote control box, in line with Z1000 transformer doesn't work. I wonder why?

Is that MTH remote that little stick thing with some colored buttons on it?  I know that it's infra-red and line of sight.  And, sometimes doesn't behave well under Christmas trees.  Always got my dealer to swap them out for conventional controllers as I never wanted to mess with it.

Fred

It is a slender remote with colored buttons, and it is most definitely line of site to the small control box that is inline between the brick and the track.
If works fine as long as I point it at the control box.

What do you mean my having your dealer swap them out for conventional controllers?
Are you referring to something like the Z1000 that I am using?

Roger,

I may have misread your original post, so my information might not help the situation you are describing.

Sorry,

Fred

I'm pretty sure your problem is feeding the Remote unit with the Z1000 track output terminals.

You can't "daisy chain" a DCS TIU with a Z1000 that way either.  I think the manual calls this out, specifically stating to use the Brick plug directly into the TIU (via pigtail adapter to convert the barrel to banana plugs).

I know you are not using a TIU, but I think it may be the same issue.

-Dave

RWL posted:

...

It will power up when I turn up the power at the Z1000, and will set there making the idling sounds,
but the remote has no effect. I see the light on the control box blinking when I try a command from the remote,
but nothing happens.
However, I can control the locomotive with the buttons on the Z1000 controller.

If I unplug the brick from the Z1000 controller, then plug it directly into the MTH Ready To Run control box,
the locomotive responds to the Ready To Run remote as it should...

So everyone's on the same page, I believe you're describing the following situation:

If you only turn up the Z-1000 controller to the point where the engine starts its sounds (maybe 1/2 way rotation of the knob dial), you are not providing a suitable voltage to the RTR control box to properly operate under DCS control.  I think you'll find if you crank the Z-1000 controller as far Clockwise as it will go, then it might actually start working.  This is sort-of but not exactly along the lines of what Dave is suggesting above about placing a Z-controller between a brick and a TIU.

Since a Ready-to-Run set "just" comes with the brick and the control box (NO Z-controller), it's kind-of sort-of a clue that the Z-controller does not belong in the chain-of-command so to speak. 

Roger have your MTH engine's been program on a DCS with a hand held remote , if so they have a ID in them and they will not work on a DCS remote commander , what you have to do is get someone with a DCS and do a engine reset and then they will work that gives the engine's a O ID number .

Guy

No this locomotive is just as it came out of the Ready To Run set, and has not been near any DCS equipment, and it has not been programmed in any way.
Good suggestion though, and I thank you for it.

stan2004 posted:

RWL posted:

...

It will power up when I turn up the power at the Z1000, and will set there making the idling sounds,
but the remote has no effect. I see the light on the control box blinking when I try a command from the remote,
but nothing happens.
However, I can control the locomotive with the buttons on the Z1000 controller.

If I unplug the brick from the Z1000 controller, then plug it directly into the MTH Ready To Run control box,
the locomotive responds to the Ready To Run remote as it should...

So everyone's on the same page, I believe you're describing the following situation:

If you only turn up the Z-1000 controller to the point where the engine starts its sounds (maybe 1/2 way rotation of the knob dial), you are not providing a suitable voltage to the RTR control box to properly operate under DCS control.  I think you'll find if you crank the Z-1000 controller as far Clockwise as it will go, then it might actually start working.  This is sort-of but not exactly along the lines of what Dave is suggesting above about placing a Z-controller between a brick and a TIU.

Since a Ready-to-Run set "just" comes with the brick and the control box (NO Z-controller), it's kind-of sort-of a clue that the Z-controller does not belong in the chain-of-command so to speak. 

Yep, this is exactly the configuration that I was attempting to use.

Thanks for putting it into a clear pic.

Roger I add a file to my post it might help .

Guy

So, I tried putting the power on the Z1000 all the way up, but still no go with the remote.

Well, thanks for being a good sport and volunteering for guinea-pig duty!   I am somewhat surprised it did not work but so be it.

The specified configuration for the DCS Remote Commander is to just use the brick (no Z-controller in between).  Since you are using the CW-80 for conventional operation, I guess my question is why you are even using the Z-controller (meant for conventional control) as you apparently have "one" DCS locomotive that is command-controllable?

I guess I wasn't clear.

I tried the Z1000 in line with the Remote Commander in order to do away with the CW-80, and to have only one single power feed to the track. The CW-80 is no longer in the mix.

You see, when I do my full layout, I will have 3 separately powered track sections.
- One main outer loop
- One secondary inner loop
- One yard
Each with several power blocks.

I can't be feeding each of those three track sections with two separate power supplies, hence the attempt at daisy chaining the Z1000 and the Remote Commander.

In the end I want to be able to handle all of my locos with one single power supply (3 in total) to each of those track sections, and I had planned for each to have its own Remote commander in line.

I hope that gives a better picture of what I am trying to accomplish.

I believe a workaround may be to make a jumper wire from the Lock-On terminals to plug into the Z-Controller. That would have one track for remote control and then whatever you are doing after the controller.

You can get terminals or bare wires behind the Lock-On nuts.

You do need to control the voltage for LionChief or Lionel electronic engines and limit the voltage to 18 volts. The Z-1000 can output close to 20 volts.

THE PICTURE ABOVE  SHOULD SAY IT ALL !    MY PICTURE is your diagram with the Z controller crossed out ! 

HOPEFULLY You will have your MTH trains running soon 

Moonman posted:

I believe a workaround may be to make a jumper wire from the Lock-On terminals to plug into the Z-Controller. That would have one track for remote control and then whatever you are doing after the controller.

You can get terminals or bare wires behind the Lock-On nuts.

You do need to control the voltage for LionChief or Lionel electronic engines and limit the voltage to 18 volts. The Z-1000 can output close to 20 volts.

So are you saying that I should try putting the Z controler downstream of the Remote Commander box?
I am not using this type of track, so I don't have this type of lock on.

RWL posted:

Moonman posted:

I believe a workaround may be to make a jumper wire from the Lock-On terminals to plug into the Z-Controller. That would have one track for remote control and then whatever you are doing after the controller.

You can get terminals or bare wires behind the Lock-On nuts.

You do need to control the voltage for LionChief or Lionel electronic engines and limit the voltage to 18 volts. The Z-1000 can output close to 20 volts.

So are you saying that I should try putting the Z controler downstream of the Remote Commander box?
I am not using this type of track, so I don't have this type of lock on.

yes, the concept is the same.

When you direct connect the brick to the remote commander module you have joy with the MTH engine via the remote.

I just thought that if you jumpered off of the track connection that you could feed your other existing setup with the Z controller and switches.

I also want to repeat that you do not want to use the Z-brick direct voltage for the Lionel equipment.

RWL posted:

Moonman posted:

I believe a workaround may be to make a jumper wire from the Lock-On terminals to plug into the Z-Controller. That would have one track for remote control and then whatever you are doing after the controller.

You can get terminals or bare wires behind the Lock-On nuts.

You do need to control the voltage for LionChief or Lionel electronic engines and limit the voltage to 18 volts. The Z-1000 can output close to 20 volts.

So are you saying that I should try putting the Z controler downstream of the Remote Commander box?
I am not using this type of track, so I don't have this type of lock on.

I have same question.  Moonman, are you suggesting putting the Z-controller between the DCS-RC and the track like this?

RWL, if you have a "pigtail" cable with the mating barrel/coax plug, you might try this.  There are also screw-terminal adapters for less than $1 that would allow you to feed the DCS-RC into the Z-controller barrel/coax input jack.  I'd think you'd need to set the Z-1000 controller to its max CW setting...but I was wrong the last time!

Moonman posted:

...You do need to control the voltage for LionChief or Lionel electronic engines and limit the voltage to 18 volts. The Z-1000 can output close to 20 volts.

Just to be clear.  Are you saying the Z-1000 bricks that have a nameplate output voltage of 18V output 20V?

There was an issue with some versions of MTH bricks that had higher nameplate output voltage greater than 18V (as shown in photo) and indeed output the higher voltages.

stan2004 posted:

RWL posted:

Moonman posted:

I believe a workaround may be to make a jumper wire from the Lock-On terminals to plug into the Z-Controller. That would have one track for remote control and then whatever you are doing after the controller.

You can get terminals or bare wires behind the Lock-On nuts.

You do need to control the voltage for LionChief or Lionel electronic engines and limit the voltage to 18 volts. The Z-1000 can output close to 20 volts.

So are you saying that I should try putting the Z controler downstream of the Remote Commander box?
I am not using this type of track, so I don't have this type of lock on.

I have same question.  Moonman, are you suggesting putting the Z-controller between the DCS-RC and the track like this?

RWL, if you have a "pigtail" cable with the mating barrel/coax plug, you might try this.  There are also screw-terminal adapters for less than $1 that would allow you to feed the DCS-RC into the Z-controller barrel/coax input jack.  I'd think you'd need to set the Z-1000 controller to its max CW setting...but I was wrong the last time!

Yes, and then use the Z-Controller to feed the other tracks conventionally.

stan2004 posted:

Moonman posted:

...You do need to control the voltage for LionChief or Lionel electronic engines and limit the voltage to 18 volts. The Z-1000 can output close to 20 volts.

Just to be clear.  Are you saying the Z-1000 bricks that have a nameplate output voltage of 18V output 20V?

There was an issue with some versions of MTH bricks that had higher nameplate output voltage greater than 18V (as shown in photo) and indeed output the higher voltages.

 

Good point, Stan!

Check the output of the brick to protect the Lionel equipment from overvoltage.

I assumed that all of them had the same 21 volt output. I have 3  Z-1000 for Christmas trains and accessory power, but I never bothered to check. We only had Z-500 and Z-750 at the museum, so I recalled the higher track output.

My Z1000 states 24V output.

This forum can solve almost any problem,can't it?

We haven't solved it yet.
I tried putting the Remote Commander box before the Z1000, and still no remote action.
The strange thing is that, with the Z1000 ahead of the remote commander, even though the remote has no effect, the Z1000 worked the remote locomotive properly.

in this configuration, with the remote commander ahead of the Z1000, the commands from the Z1000 are all jumbled up.

RWL posted:

We haven't solved it yet.
I tried putting the Remote Commander box before the Z1000, and still no remote action.
The strange thing is that, with the Z1000 ahead of the remote commander, even though the remote has no effect, the Z1000 worked the remote locomotive properly.

That is what is expected.

in this configuration, with the remote commander ahead of the Z1000, the commands from the Z1000 are all jumbled up.

This is also expected.

The Z controller should not be connected to the track that the DCS engine is to be operated on.

Moonman posted:

RWL posted:

We haven't solved it yet.
I tried putting the Remote Commander box before the Z1000, and still no remote action.
The strange thing is that, with the Z1000 ahead of the remote commander, even though the remote has no effect, the Z1000 worked the remote locomotive properly.

That is what is expected.

in this configuration, with the remote commander ahead of the Z1000, the commands from the Z1000 are all jumbled up.

This is also expected.

The Z controller should not be connected to the track that the DCS engine is to be operated on.

 

Could you elaborate on this comment?

I was in hopes that the Z controller could be used to power the conventional and Lion Chief locomotives, and that it could also be used as a simple pass through, for the DCS locomotives, so that when open it would let power through, from the brick, to the Remote Commander and then to the track, so that I could then use the remote for the DCS locomotives.

In the end I will have 3 discreet powered track sections, 1 each powered by separate sides of my Lionel ZW, with remote commander boxes in line on each feeder, and the third section powered by this Z1000 with a remote commander box in line with it.

What is it about the Z controller, and or possibly the ZW, that confuses the issue for the DCS locomotive?
Again, I was in hopes that the transformers would simply let power continue to the Remote Commander.

There was a thread a while back showing the waveforms out of the Z-controller.  IIRC even with the knob at the full/max CW setting, the Z-controller output slightly "chops" the pure sinewave coming from the brick.  I don't know if this is the explanation but the chopping surely can't help matters.

Would it be practical to insert a bypass switch.  That is, even if the Z-controller did a true no-modification pass-thru of the brick voltage (when turned to full/max), this is still a step you must consciously perform to go into the DCS-RC "mode."  Albeit another item in the chain, seems an electrical selector switch swap in and/or bypass the Z-controller when it is not needed.

I don't wish to have separate power supplies for conventional and DCS on each of the three  track sections, but I think I have a plan to make this work.

Your suggestion reminded me of a plan that I had thought about over a year ago.

Fore each of my three discreetly powered track sections, I could rout power from the power brick to a three position switch that could either be ( 1 ) off, ( 2 ) rout the power to the ZW or Z1000, depending on the track section, or ( 3 ) rout power to the Remote Commander box.

This would allow only one power supply per track controller, and still allow discreet control for conventional, or DCS locomotives.

Thoughts?

RWL posted:

I don't wish to have separate power supplies for conventional and DCS on each of the three  track sections, but I think I have a plan to make this work.

Your suggestion reminded me of a plan that I had thought about over a year ago.

Fore each of my three discreetly powered track sections, I could rout power from the power brick to a three position switch that could either be ( 1 ) off, ( 2 ) rout the power to the ZW or Z1000, depending on the track section, or ( 3 ) rout power to the Remote Commander box.

This would allow only one power supply per track controller, and still allow discreet control for conventional, or DCS locomotives.

Thoughts?

After some thought, I realize that I would also have to have another switch on the downstream side of the two controllers to bring the power back to the track in one place.

RWL posted:

 

...After some thought, I realize that I would also have to have another switch on the downstream side of the two controllers to bring the power back to the track in one place.

 

If I understand your idea, how about a center-off, double-pole double-throw (DPDT) switch?  One pole selects where the AC brick power goes to.  The other pole selects where the track power comes from. 

The Black terminal is common so you're just switching the Red "hot" terminal.

stan2004 posted:

RWL posted:

 

...After some thought, I realize that I would also have to have another switch on the downstream side of the two controllers to bring the power back to the track in one place.

 

If I understand your idea, how about a center-off, double-pole double-throw (DPDT) switch?  One pole selects where the AC brick power goes to.  The other pole selects where the track power comes from. 

The Black terminal is common so you're just switching the Red "hot" terminal.

Thanks for chiming in Stan,

I came to the same conclusion. 
I was reading up on STSP and STDP switches, and later on it hit me that I could do exactly as you have suggested.
I could take care of both selections with one single switch, which also takes one more step out of the configuration change between locomotives.

I do appreciate the suggestion just the same, for two reasons:
1) I might not have thought of it, and would be glad to learn of it.
2) It is always good to know that someone else has the same idea, as I am not that electrically inclined.

Thanks again

So, I have been looking at switches, and am confused.

Do I need a Double Pole Double Throw switch to handle the two wets of control settings?

I edited the earlier photo which might help.  A DPDT (double-pole, double-throw) switch will have 6 terminals as shown.  When switch thrown one-way, it connects 1-3 and 2-4.  When switch thrown other way, it connects 3-5 and 4-6.  If you additionally have a DPDT with center-off, no connections are made in the middle position.

So in above diagram, the red/hot/center-rail power connections would be:

1  Z-controller input (center pin of coax/barrel jack)

2  Z-controller output

3  Brick output (center of coax/barrel plug)

4  Track center-rail

5  DCS-RC input (center pin of coax/barrel jack)

6  DCS-RC output

You will probably want to use adapters or pigtail cables to convert the coax/barrel connections to wires.

The black/common/outer-rail power connections are tied together and do not go thru the DPDT switch.

If you go the DPDT switch route as shown, search for "DPDT center off".  You'll find hundreds of options in both the toggle or rocker style.  You need one that can handle at least ~5A (at 18VAC) as put out by the Z brick.  Note that you will most likely find the Amp rating referenced to house voltages (120/240 VAC).   If it rated at 5A at 120VAC it will be fine for a Z-controller. 

They might be referred to as ON-OFF-ON.  Just don't get one that says (ON)-OFF-(ON) with the parentheses around the ON.  This means it's a momentary type which is spring-loaded to return to the center-off position when you're not pushing on it (like the window up-down control in a car).  Obviously you don't want a momentary style; the above example uses the term "latching" to differentiate it from momentary but I'm not sure latching is a universally used term.

Finally, consider how you're going to wire up the switch.  There are some so-called "mini" sized switches that can handle the Amps, but if you look at the terminals, it can be a hassle to solder-to and dress the thick wiring many guys use for track power.  The above example uses quick-connect or Faston push-on/pull-off style of crimped connectors common in automotive applications.  There are DPDT center-off switches with screw-terminals so no soldering.  Whatever works for you!

Wire it up like you initially did but wire the DCS Remote Commander in passive mode because it just may work.

stan2004 posted:

I edited the earlier photo which might help.  A DPDT (double-pole, double-throw) switch will have 6 terminals as shown.  When switch thrown one-way, it connects 1-3 and 2-4.  When switch thrown other way, it connects 3-5 and 4-6.  If you additionally have a DPDT with center-off, no connections are made in the middle position.

So in above diagram, the red/hot/center-rail power connections would be:

1  Z-controller input (center pin of coax/barrel jack)

2  Z-controller output

3  Brick output (center of coax/barrel plug)

4  Track center-rail

5  DCS-RC input (center pin of coax/barrel jack)

6  DCS-RC output

You will probably want to use adapters or pigtail cables to convert the coax/barrel connections to wires.

The black/common/outer-rail power connections are tied together and do not go thru the DPDT switch.

If you go the DPDT switch route as shown, search for "DPDT center off".  You'll find hundreds of options in both the toggle or rocker style.  You need one that can handle at least ~5A (at 18VAC) as put out by the Z brick.  Note that you will most likely find the Amp rating referenced to house voltages (120/240 VAC).   If it rated at 5A at 120VAC it will be fine for a Z-controller. 

They might be referred to as ON-OFF-ON.  Just don't get one that says (ON)-OFF-(ON) with the parentheses around the ON.  This means it's a momentary type which is spring-loaded to return to the center-off position when you're not pushing on it (like the window up-down control in a car).  Obviously you don't want a momentary style; the above example uses the term "latching" to differentiate it from momentary but I'm not sure latching is a universally used term.

Finally, consider how you're going to wire up the switch.  There are some so-called "mini" sized switches that can handle the Amps, but if you look at the terminals, it can be a hassle to solder-to and dress the thick wiring many guys use for track power.  The above example uses quick-connect or Faston push-on/pull-off style of crimped connectors common in automotive applications.  There are DPDT center-off switches with screw-terminals so no soldering.  Whatever works for you!

So, I found another place with instructions, and you have nailed it down for me.
The only question that I have, and you addressed it, but I am still not clear on it.

Does the common (Black) wire from the power brick, go directly from the brick to the center rail?

Casey Jones2 posted:

Wire it up like you initially did but wire the DCS Remote Commander in passive mode because it just may work.

If you mean having the power go thru the Z1000 then to the track, and then having the Remote Commander connected to the track separately, and with no power to it:

I already tried it, and it doesn't work. The light on the R.C. box lights up, then blinks when receiving commands from the remote, but will not control the locomotive.

I can control the loco with the transformer, but not the remote.

RWL posted:

...

Does the common (Black) wire from the power brick, go directly from the brick to the center rail?

No, that would cause a short circuit.

The common of the Z-1000 power brick goes directly to the black of the Z-controller, the black of the DCS-RC, and outer rail.

I really did mean to say the OUTER rail.
My bad there.

So does it go Like a daisy chain?
Power Brick to Z controller to track?

RWL posted:

Casey Jones2 posted:

Wire it up like you initially did but wire the DCS Remote Commander in passive mode because it just may work.

If you mean having the power go thru the Z1000 then to the track, and then having the Remote Commander connected to the track separately, and with no power to it:

I already tried it, and it doesn't work. The light on the R.C. box lights up, then blinks when receiving commands from the remote, but will not control the locomotive.

I can control the loco with the transformer, but not the remote.

Has the Remote Commander ever worked with loco??

Casey Jones2 posted:

RWL posted:

Casey Jones2 posted:

Wire it up like you initially did but wire the DCS Remote Commander in passive mode because it just may work.

If you mean having the power go thru the Z1000 then to the track, and then having the Remote Commander connected to the track separately, and with no power to it:

I already tried it, and it doesn't work. The light on the R.C. box lights up, then blinks when receiving commands from the remote, but will not control the locomotive.

I can control the loco with the transformer, but not the remote.

Has the Remote Commander ever worked with loco??

Yes. It works perfectly, when used all by itself.