MTH Z 4000 ISSUE ????

that is a puzzle and i am looking forward to hearing some ideas. Do both throttles fail to function with those locos? let's give this a bump!

The reverse unit could be locked in neutral. There is a section in the manual on locking into neutral and how to unlock.  It’s on pages 25-26 of the SD-90 manual.

I bet you are charging the BCR at a higher voltage with the Z1000 than the Z4000.  Try raising the voltage to 12-14 volts, then lower to 10 volts, then either cycle the throttle or press the direction button.

Hi MarkVB: I don't think they are all "locked in neutral", as they all operate perfectly fine when I switch off the Z 4000 and change back over to the Z 1000. I don't do any "re-set" functions to get them to move forward when I use the Z 1000, I just power up, hit the direction button, and off they go!!! Close but no cigar Mark.

Jon: You maybe onto something with the voltage difference between the two types of transformers. I'll go out to the layout right now and follow the procedure you have suggested, and I'll get back to you with the results.

Peter (Buco Australia)

Back again Jon:

No cigar either!!

Took it up to 14V for 60 seconds on the Z 4000......dropped the voltage to about 9V, and nothing....no movement. Hit the "Direction" button and heard one "clank" like I was trying to do a re-set, followed by the "air release" sound.

I think there is something wrong with the program in the boards that is not reading the sine waves of the Z 4000 properly, and not letting the loco's come out of the re-set mode at start-up.

Could this be where I use my "MTH Proto1 re-set chip" ????

Peter.....(Buco Australia)

I assume you have this trouble shooting guide for PS1. It discusses the two dings on page 1,  https://mthtrains.com/service-documents/7043

@Buco posted:

Back again Jon:

No cigar either!!

Took it up to 14V for 60 seconds on the Z 4000......dropped the voltage to about 9V, and nothing....no movement. Hit the "Direction" button and heard one "clank" like I was trying to do a re-set, followed by the "air release" sound.

I think there is something wrong with the program in the boards that is not reading the sine waves of the Z 4000 properly, and not letting the loco's come out of the re-set mode at start-up.

Could this be where I use my "MTH Proto1 re-set chip" ????

Peter.....(Buco Australia)

Peter,

Do the same thing but take it down to 5v or 6v volts instead of 9v.  You need to go lower before you push the "Direction" button.

The reset chip will not help you since your locomotives work just fine with the Z1000.  This reset process is only for engines that don't appear to work with any transformer.

Mike

Have you tried doing a reset? 

In the manual for one of your engines, https://mthtrains.com/sites/de...tion/30dl17372i.pdf, look at pages starting at 24.  On p. 34 there is a list of the different combination of clinks and clanks that indicate the various resets.

The process is somewhat convoluted, and it might take several attempts to get it done.  I've also found that it works better if you stand on one foot and touch your nose while doing it.  Lighting a candle and sprinkling some holy water may also help. 

Thank you guys.....sorry for the tardy reply, life got in the way today!!!

Hokie 71- Thank you for the link to the trouble shooting guide for PS1 loco's. I do remember seeing it at some stage a while ago, but had forgotten all about it. I have added it to my "favorites" list and will have a go at following their advice. I will try again tomorrow (maybe), and we will see how that works out. Watch this space!!

Mellow Hudson Mike - Yeh I have taken it down to about 5V, but as soon as I do, I don't get a chance to hit the "direction button" as the dam fool two bell rings are heard, and it thinks it is in the re-set mode. The more I raise and lower the throttle, the re-set "clicks and clanks" start up. Thanks for the info on the "re-set chip".....I won't try it at this stage, but desperate men do desperate things!!!!

Mallard4468 - Been there and done that (factory re-set) at least three times now. The loco's all run normally when the track is powered by the Z 1000. The moment I turn the Z 1000 off and introduce the Z 4000, all of the above-mentioned loco's won't move. The crazy thing is that other PS1 loco's I have in my fleet run perfectly on the Z 4000.....GO FIGURE!!!!  Been standing on one foot with my finger up my nose (in candle light) praying to a higher being.....but HE is not listening to me at the moment.

More to come, maybe tomorrow.

Peter (Buco Australia)

Crazy stuff.  Amazing that you got two heavy items shipped from my backyard to Down Under and they arrived in one piece - can't imagine how much you paid for shipping.

Here's a grasping-at-straws idea...  Hook up two voltmeters to the track; set one to AC and one to DC.  Connect the Z1000 directly to the track, and place one of the problem locos on the track.  Go through the startup procedure and observe the readings on both of the meters.  I'm assuming that the loco will work in this scenario.  Repeat this process using the Z4000 and observe the meters (ignore the Z4000 displays) - I'm wondering if there is some slight difference in the upper and lower AC voltages that you get from the two transformers during the process.  Also, look to see if the Z4000 generates some DC - maybe the bell or whistle circuit is acting as if the button is partially depressed.

Another thought - do you encounter this problem on both throttles of the Z4000?

Also, you're connecting the transformers directly to the track - they're not going through a TIU - correct?

Hi Peter

I have 2 Zs and 3 PS1s with brc that i regularly run

Here's how I do my start up

When I first turn on the throttle I bring it up to under 10V till it starts up,then while it sits there for at least a minute for the brc to charge,I have it at 12 or 14 V or whatever ,nothing exact just over 10,

Then after a minute at least when I go to move it I bring it below 10V to move it

When you first turn the throttle on and you put it at 10V or above it will never move,I always carefully turn it on slowly to 9. something

One more goofy  idea from the bleachers, could you have flaky bcrs? Maybe take one and replace with a battery to see what happens?

If these run with the Z-1000, the engines are fine.  Why they are not running right with the Z-4000 not normal.  Australian power??

You can raise voltage high to charge BCR, but voltage must be lowered to come out of reset and a rapid lowering would think your moving to reset postion 1 a clink.   Even so, you can hit the direction button to see if that gets it into forward.  I am assuming the handle is not getting voltage low enough to think you want a direction change.  Do you have a lighted on the track?

I have no issues with my bench Z-4000 with any vintage of PS-1 that work.  But I use the direction button when testing.  G

Try using the throttle being off for 2 seconds before throttling up again. Just maybe these engines need more time off.

@GGG posted:

...  Australian power?? ...

That's an interesting theory.  Assuming that one is not an expert in electronics, is there an easy way to test for that? 

If that's the answer, it will really suck after all of the effort and expense entailed on getting those two monsters to Australia. 

FWIW ...

USA->Australia Electrical Appliance Considerations (armory.com)

Peter - 50Hz vs. 60Hz could be the problem.

There must be a clue in the z-4000 or locomotive manuals. here they are. BTW, there seems to be some missing information on page 4 of the z-4000. Both have lots of other details sprinkled throughout.

As far as Australian power, the z-4000 manual indicates it is designed for 50/60 Hz operation so the locomotives must be Ok for 50 Hz also.  You would think something like this would impact all the locos if it was the issue.  Have you put a meter on the input voltage to the Z-4000 from the transformer you have it connected to?

(z-4000 manual attached from: http://www.mth-railking.com/detail.asp?item=40-4000, SD 90 MAC at https://mthtrains.com/sites/de...ction/30dl17372i.pdf )

Just came downstairs from the train room to test my three PS1 engines for you

Two I started at 9V and then took it up to 14V for over a minute to "charge" the BRCs,

Then when bringing the throttle below 10V {9V}to take off in, they make a air whoosh sound then a single dink of the bell.Then hit the direction button and off it goes

The other I started it at 8V and let it sit there at 8V and after a minute hit the direction and off it went

Let me know the outcome of whats going on,I Have PS1s and PS2s,and a few PS3 (I like my PS2s the most,followed by my PS1s}

I've had my PS1s along with the two  Z4000 for over 20yrs now,most of those years with the BRCs and they have worked great

Good luck and let me know

I’m still thinking his 3 nonstarters may not be tolerating 50Hz, despite the transformer being able to.

OK my fellow O gauge railroad engineers....I will answer everyone's questions (to the best of my ability) one at a time.

Mallard4468: Stout Auctions were very good when it came to shipping them to Australia. I asked if they could send them in separate boxes, so they wouldn't "fight" on the way over. The second reason for separate boxes was to get around our crazy customs tax....if the value of the goods is less than $1,000.00 (Aus), there is no duty!!

The cost of both Z4000's was $820.00 (US) combined, which threw it over our $1,000 threshold (crap exchange rate with the US dollar at the moment - 70 cents (US) for one Australian dollar). Anyway, even with two shipping boxes, Stouts only charged me $112.00 (US) all up to get them to me.....they used DHL International, and it only took  them7 days to get here.....I was stoked, and one of them even arrived on a Sunday morning....yeh, a Sunday delivery, something unheard of here!!

As suggested, I will try the two voltmeters and will get back to you, but it may have to wait till Thursday, as the "life thing" is getting in the way again.    And yes.....this crazy thing is happening whatever lever or side of the Z4000 I use.    And no.....I am not sending the power through a TIU (I am not that technologically advanced where I use DCS to run my railroad....my kids call me a Dinosaur....and for a very good reason).

Transman: Thanks for the info.....and yes, that is exactly the same way I start-up all of my MTH PS1 & PS2 loco's that have BCR's, but for some strange reason these 3 PS1 diesel loco's and one steam loco just won't respond as I slowly lower the throttle back to zero and then slowly back up again to get the loco moving. The circuit board thinks I am putting it into "reset" every time I lower the throttle, no matter how slowly I do it.

I will try your suggestion in starting the loco at around 14V for the BCR to charge, and then only bring the throttle down to about 9V, I will listen for the air release (whoosh sound), followed by the single bell "dink", and then I will hit the direction button and see what happens. Stay tuned, but you may not hear from me for a couple of days.....life and all that.

hokie71: You maybe onto something here with a "flaky" BCR. I will swap it out for a new BCR (I have a "few" new ones in my stock of spare parts). I'll let you know what happens.

In the matter of the power supply to the Z4000......yes we convicts run 240V AC to all of our houses, and it will kill you in a heart beat!!!!   For that very reason I purchased a "step-down" transformer built here in Australia to drop our 240V to 110V specifically to run these famous American trains.

I don't believe the difference between the Hz rating has much (if anything) to do with it, because all of my other PS1, PS2, and PS3 loco's run fantastic from the Z4000, and ALL of my MTH loco's run fantastic with the Z1000 transformer......same Hz feeding both transformers. Thank you for the link to the Z4000 instruction sheet and the SD 90 MAC manual.....but I have both of these documents, and have poured over them endlessly trying to figure out what could be going on.

GGG: It doesn't matter how slow I reduce the power, I don't hear the full "air release" sound I normally hear when I throttle down the other PS1 loco's. For some reason it just doesn't seem to recognize that the reset mode should be exited and the forward motion should commence.

Yes I have tried pushing the "direction" button at all sorts of different times and.....NOTHING!!!  If I move the throttle back up and then back to zero it starts making the "clinks and clangs" sound that indicate it is trying to access the different features.  I usually give up at that stage.

Joe Allen: Good suggestion.....I am putting that on my "list" of things to try, in a day or so.....stay tuned!!

Richie C: Please see my comments to hokie 71 above. Logic tells me that if it had something to do with the voltage and Hz ratings between Australia and the US, the Z1000 transformer would not have worked, ever, but yet it does, and it runs all of my MTH loco's for a few years now. And the Z4000 also will run most (bar 4 loco's) of my MTH loco's as well as my Williams loco's as well. For goodness sakes, it also runs my Swiss Buco loco's perfectly (field coils and armature motors).

Mark V. Spadaro: Can't come to grips with the difference between the 50Hz and 60 Hz. Why do all of my other PS1, PS2, and PS3 loco's run beautifully on the Z4000, and ALL of my MTH loco's (every one of them) run just great on the Z1000....same 110 voltage and same 50Hz going to the Z4000.

That's it for the moment.....I hope I haven't missed anyone. Please stay tuned and I will come back in a couple of day with results from all of your suggestions.

Peter  (Buco Australia)

@Buco - Glad to hear that Stouts treated you right on the shipping - considering the weight and distance, $112 seems good to me.  I've bought a couple of items from them, and the shipping was always done well and priced reasonably.

Although I've never had a bad BCR, swapping one out would be a good test to eliminate one more variable.  However, having 4 bad BCRs seems unlikely, especially when the engines run OK with the Z1000.

My guess, and the Hz might contribute to this, is that the four locos are pickier about the exact amount of voltage required, and the Z4000 is crossing that line.

Good luck.

I believe all those 21## engines are 95-96 vintage.  You are dealing with a bottom power board with all sorts of resistors, diodes, relay and caps to detect voltage levels and such to signal a processor how to work.  Early units are far more susceptible to non-compatibility with chopped wave.  I also believe QSI boards had a software selection to let the processor know if it was 60 or 50hz.  This was not part of the MTH production stuff.  Interestingly enough, many of those early boards actually come out of reset and run with a dead battery.  I just upgrade one that ran despite having the original white battery.  26 yo eng and battery.

Put voltage at 12 v for a minute.  Turn transformer voltage off.  Does it play shutdown sounds?  If so BCR and circuit are fine.  Turn voltage back up to 12V for 15secs.  Lower to 8 to 9.5V than press direction button and hold for 1-2 sec and release.  If it does not come out of reset and move, see if lights go off or just dim.  Try it by using handle to lower voltage to off for 1-2 sec than come back up to 8-10V.  If still no movement despite working on the Z-1000, go find some 98-2000 bottom boards and replace the ones on your engine.  Or swap the top processor of a non-working engine to one of them that does.  If it works with Z-4000, you need new bottom boards.  If it doesn't work those processor boards are not handling the Z-4000 power for some reason.  If you had some transformer that could power the Z at 60hz you might see if that resolves it.   G

Hey Peter

Try what GGG wrote,that looks promising

Here's some wisdom from George from quite a while back, might be helpful.   I saved this some time back.

I finally figured it out. I just restored two PS-1 engines that are on the "List" and were deselected. The original chip now runs the engine.

The QSI board has a processor (large multi pin square), an EEPROM ( a small 8 pin chip that has 2K of non-volatile memory for retaining state changes along with other watchdog functions); and the PROM (the replaceable chip that contains the software and is Read Only Memory).

The key is to reset the EEPROM which has stored an Engine ID that the original chip cannot access or circumvent. This engine ID is how QSI could allow a trains to be on a track with voltage, but the processor would ignore the voltage and wait for a combination of horn presses that matched the operator assigned ID before it would start the engine up.

For a deselected engine, the processor starts up and you hear 2 bells indicating proper processor start up, but no engine sounds and the engine will not respond to the direction button. No sound and no motion.

The QSI engine stores IDs in several reset locations, and there is no default value, that is why a reset 18 won't work. To reset the IDs to "NO ID" you need to place a working PROM in the engine that is a chip not on the deselect list. This chip will bypass the engine ID and the engine will start up (MTH did not want the Engine ID feature so the software was suppose to skip that sequence). You now need to access reset position #3 and press the horn button. Then Reset #17 and do the same. Then go to reset #18 and press and hold the horn button until you hear a garbled bell and a clear bell. At that point follow the normal instructions and take voltage to zero and immediately back up to a value less than 10 volts to get the engine to move/lock in the settings.

Reset positions #3 and #17 clear all engine IDs. (Clear the value accidentally set in the EEPROM when a dead battery shutdown occurred).

Then shutdown and wait the 20 secs for the battery circuit and processor to shutdown. Swap the original chip back in and start up the engine. The engine should start up and function correctly. Ensure you have a good battery.

The chips from engines on the list still have a software program that can allow it to happen again especially if there is an aborted shutdown sequence (dead battery).

So replacing the chip is still recommended. But if not, you just have to go through this restore feature.

There are other faults that can occur that may not be restored by this method, but ASC techs have those restoration chips. This specifically fixes engine on the list that have had an engine ID assigned by the dead battery shutdown. G

I looked up the ship dates for these engines on the MTH website. See  below. I think GGG and GRJ have the answer.

Santa Fe SD-90 MAC - 30-2121-1  March 1998

Chicago North Western - DASH 8 - 30-2155-1 August 1999

Pennsylvania SD 45 - 30-2153-1 August 1999

Southern Pacific Cab Forward - 30-1144-1 March 1999

Chris

LVHR

@lehighline posted:

I looked up the ship dates for these engines on the MTH website. See  below. I think GGG and GRJ have the answer.

Santa Fe SD-90 MAC - 30-2121-1  March 1998

Chicago North Western - DASH 8 - 30-2155-1 August 1999

Pennsylvania SD 45 - 30-2153-1 August 1999

Southern Pacific Cab Forward - 30-1144-1 March 1999

Chris

LVHR

Isn't this "answer" inconsistent with the symptoms seen when powering with the Z 1000, i.e. none, no symptoms, they work just fine?

Mike

Yes.  The premier unit with 21 were 96 units.  As 1998 types they are less susceptible to chopped wave.  But they could have compromised components that are causing the issue.

Swapping top board to a unit that worked bottom board can start isolating this.  G

Afternoon gentlemen, it is Thursday afternoon and I have been able to get back to the layout for more testing.

OK....tried everything that has been suggested so far, with the exception of GunRunnerJohn's advice (I think he is referring to the "special MTH chip" to reset the board) and GGG's advice to swap out a board.....he's starting to scare me now!!

What I've done is a short video of the Z4000, with nothing on the track, and noticed that the voltage drops from 9V to nothing when I lower the throttle lever. When I raise the lever it goes from zero to 9V......nothing in between!!!

I think this may be the root of the problem, The voltage drop is insufficient to trigger the board to leave the reset mode, and it either wants to shut down or go to the next cycle of selecting a "feature" to reset.

Please have a look at the video and let me know your thoughts. (Hope the video works!!!)

Peter.....(Buco Australia)

@Buco posted:

Afternoon gentlemen, it is Thursday afternoon and I have been able to get back to the layout for more testing.

OK....tried everything that has been suggested so far, with the exception of GunRunnerJohn's advice (I think he is referring to the "special MTH chip" to reset the board) and GGG's advice to swap out a board.....he's starting to scare me now!!

What I've done is a short video of the Z4000, with nothing on the track, and noticed that the voltage drops from 9V to nothing when I lower the throttle lever. When I raise the lever it goes from zero to 9V......nothing in between!!!

I think this may be the root of the problem, The voltage drop is insufficient to trigger the board to leave the reset mode, and it either wants to shut down or go to the next cycle of selecting a "feature" to reset.

Please have a look at the video and let me know your thoughts. (Hope the video works!!!)

Peter.....(Buco Australia)

The video was fine for me.  I'm not sure if there is a calibration procedure.  Do both arms do the same?  Do both do it even with a small load such as a lighted car?

@Transman posted:

Video didn't play for me

Might be some kind of setting for you.  Worked OK here.

In any case, it shows that slowly moving the throttle up and down causes the voltage to jump between 0 and 9 volts - nothing in between.

@Buco posted:

Afternoon gentlemen, it is Thursday afternoon and I have been able to get back to the layout for more testing.

OK....tried everything that has been suggested so far, with the exception of GunRunnerJohn's advice (I think he is referring to the "special MTH chip" to reset the board) and GGG's advice to swap out a board.....he's starting to scare me now!!

What I've done is a short video of the Z4000, with nothing on the track, and noticed that the voltage drops from 9V to nothing when I lower the throttle lever. When I raise the lever it goes from zero to 9V......nothing in between!!!

I think this may be the root of the problem, The voltage drop is insufficient to trigger the board to leave the reset mode, and it either wants to shut down or go to the next cycle of selecting a "feature" to reset.

Please have a look at the video and let me know your thoughts. (Hope the video works!!!)

...

Peter.....(Buco Australia)

@MartyE posted:

The video was fine for me.  I'm not sure if there is a calibration procedure.  Do both arms do the same?  Do both do it even with a small load such as a lighted car?

FWIW...

I have a Z4000 and Z1000 hooked up so it was easy to do a quick test.  One side of the Z4000 went from 0 to about 5 volts; the other side initially went straight from 0 to 10 - when I put an engine on the track, the lower limit was about 6 volts.  Interestingly, my Z1000 went up and down much more gradually, starting/ending about 3 volts.

@Mallard4468 posted:

FWIW...

I have a Z4000 and Z1000 hooked up so it was easy to do a quick test.  One side of the Z4000 went from 0 to about 5 volts; the other side initially went straight from 0 to 10 - when I put an engine on the track, the lower limit was about 6 volts.  Interestingly, my Z1000 went up and down much more gradually, starting/ending about 3 volts.

Remember, reading the voltage of the Z1000 with a conventional multimeter is likely not to give you an accurate voltage reading.  Even the cheap true-RMS meters don't seem to read the chopped waveform outputs all that accurately.

OK gentlemen.....what's the go.

Are these Z4000 transformers built to only start operating at approx. 9V???

I have tested both sides of both Z4000 transformers I have, and they are all the same......nothing till about 9V from zero upward. Have I purchased two "dud" transformers from Stouts??

Is there a "fix" to get the Z4000 to start supplying power at 2V, like my Z1000 does??

Gunrunner John......should I use the Proto-Sound reset chip (pictured below) on the three diesels and one steamer that appear to be hyper sensitive to the requirement for a gradual drop in voltage below the 9.5V the Z4000 can only deliver?? 

Peter.....(Buco Australia)

Both sides of both of my Z4000s work from zero to 2,3, 4, Volts, whatever I put it at

The Video wouldn't play on my firefox browser,ok on google

Thanks for that info Joe, glad you finally got to see my poor quality video....seems like I may have two partially defective Z4000's.

I'm just wondering if there is something I can adjust inside them to get them to continue making contact all the way down the coil, till they reach zero.

Anyone out there that can shed some light on Z4000 transformer repairs???

Peter.....(Buco Australia)

@Buco posted:

Thanks for that info Joe, glad you finally got to see my poor quality video....seems like I may have two partially defective Z4000's.

I'm just wondering if there is something I can adjust inside them to get them to continue making contact all the way down the coil, till they reach zero.

Anyone out there that can shed some light on Z4000 transformer repairs???

Peter.....(Buco Australia)

My 2 cents (.03 Australian?)...

I understand your frustration after all of the effort and expense.  But if most of your PS-1 locos work with the new Z4000 transformers, and your other locos work OK with them, leave the Z4000s alone and use the Z1000 for those few engines.  The risks of causing further damage outweigh the benefits.

There us an authorized MTH tech in Australia.  I’ll get his contact info Monday and see if there is anything you can do to correct the problem.  I’m going back to MTH part-time.

@GGG, @Alan Mancus Reaching out to Alan and GGG who  seem to have been into the Z4000 in past threads. Maybe they have an idea of what the issue might be - could it be as simple as pulling it apart and cleaning or replacing a wiper on the coil? Perhaps the gear alignment on the small potentiometer in shipping half way around the world?