MTH Z 4000 ISSUE ????

Morning gentlemen (it's Sunday morning "down under" in Australia)

Mallard4468: You have been reading my mind!!! I was thinking the very same thing.....leave well enough alone!! The three diesels and one steamer work fabulously on the Z1000, so why not just use this transformer to run them. Until someone here on the forum advises I can use the MTH reset chip to fix these loco's, it is staying in its packet. And your currency conversion is spot on!!

Jon G: I already have the name of the MTH technician here in Australia.....you gave it to me late last year when I was having trouble with my PS3 "Challenger". His name is Bill Veale, and he lives in New South Wales, just outside of a small coastal town called Kempsey.

I have been to visit him (5 hour drive down, and 5 hour drive back) last year, to drop-off and then pick-up the repaired "Challenger", and he has an incredible MTH collection, track layout, and workshop facility. I was able to source a new PS3 tender board from an MTH repairer in the US (who has asked to remain nameless at this stage), and Bill installed the new board for me. He got the "Challenger" up and running faultlessly again, and I found his technical knowledge of all things MTH incredible.

Anyway, I had already spoken to him briefly about the problem with the selective loco's early in the piece, and will now call him again tomorrow to let him know about my findings with the Z4000 transformers. He may have a repair solution......fingers crossed. Also...it's great to hear of your return to MTH again, albeit part-time....your skills will be put to good use.

Hokie 71: I'm also hoping GGG or Alan Mancus will get back to us with some insight into repairing these Z4000 transformers......and yeh, I'm also hoping it is something as simple as cleaning the "wiper" to make full contact all the way down the coil. I've delved into the innards of my Buco transformers on more than one occasion (240V), so I am fairly confident in opening up the Z4000.

Peter......(Buco Australia)

@Buco posted:

Morning gentlemen (it's Sunday morning "down under" in Australia)

Mallard4468: You have been reading my mind!!! I was thinking the very same thing.....leave well enough alone!! The three diesels and one steamer work fabulously on the Z1000, so why not just use this transformer to run them. Until someone here on the forum advises I can use the MTH reset chip to fix these loco's, it is staying in its packet. And your currency conversion is spot on!!

Jon G: I already have the name of the MTH technician here in Australia.....you gave it to me late last year when I was having trouble with my PS3 "Challenger". His name is Bill Veale, and he lives in New South Wales, just outside of a small coastal town called Kempsey.

I have been to visit him (5 hour drive down, and 5 hour drive back) last year, to drop-off and then pick-up the repaired "Challenger", and he has an incredible MTH collection, track layout, and workshop facility. I was able to source a new PS3 tender board from an MTH repairer in the US (who has asked to remain nameless at this stage), and Bill installed the new board for me. He got the "Challenger" up and running faultlessly again, and I found his technical knowledge of all things MTH incredible.

Anyway, I had already spoken to him briefly about the problem with the selective loco's early in the piece, and will now call him again tomorrow to let him know about my findings with the Z4000 transformers. He may have a repair solution......fingers crossed. Also...it's great to hear of your return to MTH again, albeit part-time....your skills will be put to good use.

Hokie 71: I'm also hoping GGG or Alan Mancus will get back to us with some insight into repairing these Z4000 transformers......and yeh, I'm also hoping it is something as simple as cleaning the "wiper" to make full contact all the way down the coil. I've delved into the innards of my Buco transformers on more than one occasion (240V), so I am fairly confident in opening up the Z4000.

Peter......(Buco Australia)

Good luck with your "local" () guy - I hope it's a simple fix - hopefully just a cleaning.  I'm astounded that there's a MTH tech Down Under - who knew?

Re the reset chip - considering that the locos work properly with the Z1000, I doubt that the chip is the answer.  IMO, another case of leaving well enough alone.

That reset chip is ONLY good for the 3 Clank software conflict symptom.  If you apply power and you get 3 loud clanks and the engine does not run that is when you use the chip.   At this point these engines work on one transformer so not the issue.  G

Alright boys and girls.......here is the latest!!

On advice from my MTH tech (and others), I pulled the cover off one Z4000 and checked the alignment of the drive gears between the throttle handles and the "pod". I have attached two photos.

As you can see the "marks" don't align, and I immediately thought "Here is my problem"!!!

Pulled the "pod" mounting off, lowered the throttle lever and tried to get the two "dots" to align....to no avail!!

Turned the "pod" gear all the way down to zero, turned the throttle handle all the way down to zero, meshed the gears and reinstalled the "pod" mounting to the base of the transformer. Tried the power output again from zero upward and.....NO CIGAR......nothing had changed!!!!

I removed the "pod" once again, and just tested it on its own. Turned the transformer on and slowly wound the small gear up and watched the digital readout on the transformer's screen. YUP.....starts at 2V, and then nothing (zero, zip, zilch) and I have to continue turning the gear until it gets to a point and....9.5V appears on the screen.

Thought maybe the digital readout on the screen my be faulty, so I hooked up my own voltmeter. It told me the exact same thing to with-in 1V. In desperation I disassembled  the voltage "pod" and inspected the "wipers" and the two ringed surfaces they make contact with.......nothing unusual there.

Put it all back together again, tested it again, and I am right back where I started.......there is no low voltage power being sent to the track connections below 9.5/10V from both throttle handles, on both Z4000 transformers.

QUESTION: Were some of these early Z4000 transformers manufactured with 10V start-up "pods", similar to my Swiss Buco transformers that start at 10V?? Do I need to get new voltage "pods"???

Z4000 Serial No's:  121044289 and 039814022

Your thoughts please gentlemen.

Peter......(Buco Australia)

Ok, I was at MTH today and checked with Don on the Z4000 voltage issue.  Apparently, that is not an issue, but typical of the Z4000’s.  Unloaded Z4000’s can jump from 0 volts to 10 or more as soon as the throttle is moved.  I checked mine and the one at MTH on the test layout.  Some went to 7-8 volts, others went to 11 volts.  However, adding a load to the layout, a few lighted lock-ons, maybe lighted cars should drop the voltage below 10 volts to the loco so will come out of neutral.  The board alone may not provide enough load to the transformer.

So, the Z-Controller is working properly, as well as the Z-4000.  Don’t believe anything can be done with the Z-4000 other than add a load to it.  Some behave differently.  The three I tested were all different, but the voltage did drop with a load.  The 50Hz and the voltage output on your stepdown transformer (240 to 120) could be affecting the output voltage.

Thanks for the super quick response Jon G.

I'll go out to the layout and add some passenger carriages with lights (incandescent) to these problem loco's and see what happens.

Thanks again for following this up with the guys at MTH....I really appreciate your efforts.

Stay tuned!!!

Peter.......(Buco Australia)

@Jon G posted:

Ok, I was at MTH today and checked with Don on the Z4000 voltage issue.  Apparently, that is not an issue, but typical of the Z4000’s.  Unloaded Z4000’s can jump from 0 volts to 10 or more as soon as the throttle is moved.  I checked mine and the one at MTH on the test layout.  Some went to 7-8 volts, others went to 11 volts.  However, adding a load to the layout, a few lighted lock-ons, maybe lighted cars should drop the voltage below 10 volts to the loco so will come out of neutral.  The board alone may not provide enough load to the transformer.

So, the Z-Controller is working properly, as well as the Z-4000.  Don’t believe anything can be done with the Z-4000 other than add a load to it.  Some behave differently.  The three I tested were all different, but the voltage did drop with a load.  The 50Hz and the voltage output on your stepdown transformer (240 to 120) could be affecting the output voltage.

Thanks for the quick reply.  Although it seems like odd behavior, knowing that it's "normal" will prevent any fruitless disassembly of the transformer or engines.

@Buco posted:

Thanks for the super quick response Jon G.

I'll go out to the layout and add some passenger carriages with lights (incandescent) to these problem loco's and see what happens.

Thanks again for following this up with the guys at MTH....I really appreciate your efforts.

Stay tuned!!!

Peter.......(Buco Australia)

Looking back at one of my previous posts, putting a conventional engine on the track changed my Z4000 to start at about 6 volts instead of going straight from 0 to 10.

Good to know that you didn't get a bum transformer.  And thanks for your earlier post with pictures showing the things you tried.

@Transman posted:

Both sides of both of my Z4000s work from zero to 2,3, 4, Volts, whatever I put it at

The Video wouldn't play on my firefox browser,ok on google

I couldn't play it either.

Morning guys:

It is with a heavy heart I must report back on the latest suggestions to increase the load on the transformer during the engine start-up phase.

Jon G: Placed a seven car passenger train (bogie axles- 8 wheels per carriage) behind one of the problem diesels. Six carriages have one incandescent light globe inside them (one also has a red taillight as well) and the seventh car has two incandescent light globes inside it, so I believe there was a fair load on the transformer at start-up.

Nothing changed....the voltage drop got down to about 7V, then nothing to zero. Nothing from zero back up to about 7V, and the loco still just sits there with insufficient power to trigger the circuit board, and remove it from the re-set mode and into forward.  Two bells ring as the lever is lowered, then nothing!!!

The shut down process is also a little weird.....the idling engine sound does not play after the two bells ring, and I only hear it come on for a couple of brief seconds, just before the loco actually switches off, and then I get that strange little "fart" sound, right at the end like all my PS1 loco's do.

Mallard4468: Too late... I have already disassembled one of the Z4000, and put it back together, as well as opening one of the diesels up and removing the TVS I had installed - to no avail!!! I'm clutching at straws now, but I will try running one of my open-frame motor Buco loco's from the Z4000, and watch and see what the voltage reads. These Swiss loco's need at least 10V to get them going, and they do draw some amps, so it may be an interesting exercise.

Watch this space (again) guys.....I am growing weary!!!

Peter.... (Buco Australia)

That's really strange.  Voltage below 10 volts should allow you to cycle a PS1 board.  

- Advancing the throttle to 12 volts, letting the sounds start (and BCR charge for 45-60 sec, if equipped)
- Lower the throttle to less than 10 volts
- Press the direction button (do the sounds stay on and not drop out?)
- Raise the throttle and it should move forward

Are you using the same procedure with the Z-Controller?

The shutdown sounds should play for a few seconds after shutdown.  The “fart” sound at the end is normal.  Are you using a rechargeable battery or BCR?  Is the resistor next to the battery plug on the bottom board burned (it’s for the battery charge circuit)?

@BobbyD posted:

I couldn't play it either.

Turns out video didn't work on my Firefox browser but worked on google browser

Some engines work on the Z-4000.  The ones that don't work on Z-4000 work on the Z-1000.  That pretty much means the engine battery and ability of the transformer to cycle power is fine.  The load of a PS-1 board and the lights of the engine is pretty good.  Press the direction button of the Z-4000 do the track power lights go out?  If so voltage has been interrupted.   Attach a voltmeter and see what voltage is with a direction button depression.

We are just going in circles now with repeat ? and answers. G

Afternoon gentlemen:

Sorry for my "silence", as life is getting in the way again, and I can't get to the layout as often as I would like.

Joe: Good to hear you could finally view my poor videoing skills.

Jon G.......what can I say.....

I followed your recommendations to the letter, yesterday afternoon (Wednesday), and still came up with the same results. No cigars for any of us!!!!

I place the loco on the track......turn the voltage on the Z4000 up to 12V (actually 11.5V on my multimeter at the track) and leave it there for 60 seconds to charge the BCR.

The moment I bring the throttle handle down to 9V on the Z4000 (with or without additional loads - lights etc) the voltage drops  straight  to  zero, and I get 2 bell rings......no air line exhaust sound, no diesel engine idling sound....nothing. My multimeter confirms the drop in voltage (at the track) at the 9V mark to nothing, the moment the throttle handle continues to be lowered below 9V.

I bring the throttle lever back up to 9.5/10V, and sometimes I get the "clank" sound, telling me I am in the re-set mode, and to pick a feature I want to change. If I press the direction button at this stage for 2 seconds, while still at 9.5V, I get more "clinks and clanks", confirming the loco is definitely in the reset mode.

No amount of throttling up or down, or pressing of the direction button above or below 10V will alter the position of the circuit board to leave "re-set", and go to neutral, to get the loco to cycle to the forward position.

Next test:

I disconnect the Z4000 and re-connect the Z1000........hook-up my multimeter to the track again, and go through the same start-up process. My multimeter reads 10V at the track, and this equates to a small mark I have placed on the dial face of the transformer, to let me know where 10V is in relation to the pointer on the throttle, and the "orange stripes" MTH have printed on the transformer's fascia .  The bottom "stripe" on the fascia equates to 2.5V, before the transformer shuts down to zero volts.

Place the same loco on the track, go through the same start-up procedure for charging the BCR, slowly lower the throttle to just above 2V, and I get the air line release sound. Raise the throttle within 2 seconds, and the loco starts to move at around 5V. As I continue raising the throttle, the loco goes faster, and the diesel engine sound increases under the load, to a point when I have about 7V - 8V going to the track.

With the loco running at around 8V (good freight train speed) I hit the direction button (and release it), and it comes to a steady stop in neutral. Hit and release the direction button again, and it slowly moves off in reverse till it is up and running at the same speed.....nothing unusual here!!!

What I have noticed on the Z1000 is I cannot get the loco to leave the "re-set" mode at the initial start-up (after charging the BCR) if I just hit the direction button while the voltage is still at 10V. It tries to go into the "select a feature" re-set mode, and I have to literally lower the throttle handle to about 2V to trigger the board, and then everything is working again. These loco's will not respond to just pushing the direction button at the initial start-up phase.....I must lower the throttle manually to 2V, and then back up again, to get them to move forward.

SUMMARY: It seems to me that these three PS1 diesels, and one PS1 steamer are super sensitive, and require a constant and steady lowering of the voltage to about 2V to get them to cycle properly.

What I intend to do in the next day or so (life permitting) is to do a video on my phone of the start-up process using the Z4000, and have audio as well, so you can here the "clinks & clanks", the 2 bell rings, the lack of air pressure release, and the muted diesel engine sounds as I raise and lower the throttle, and hit the direction button. I am hoping this will give you guys an idea of what is happening when I use the Z4000 to power the track.

As before......stay tuned, cause there is more to come......the fat lady is not singing yet!!!

Peter.....(Buco Australia)

For those of us that cannot view the video, how fast (or slow) are you moving the throttle on the Z4000?

Morning BobbyD:

Sorry you can't watch the video.....I am trying to do another one using my new phone, but I need my daughters help to set-up some "I Tune account"?????    I'm a dinosaur, and I am proud of it!!!

In relation to the way I bring the throttle back down.....it is always slow, just like I do with the Z1000. If I go too fast it thinks I want to do a feature re-set.

What I was trying to show is how the voltage drops off completely to zero when I continue down past 9.5V.

I will post a new video using the Z4000 with one of the "problem" diesel loco's on the track, so everyone can watch and listen as I go through the start-up process.

Peter.....(Buco Australia)

I never thought the speed of handle movement mattered, only where the voltage was at the start.  If it thinks it is above 10V it assumes you do not want to come out of reset.   Once you have charged the bcr, once for the period it should have sufficient charge the next time.

So if you turn on power and raise voltage only to 8-9 volts and let it sit for 15 to 30 sec, than hit the direction button.  It should go.  Granted I am here is USA but on my test bench for working on engine I always use the direction button to come out of reset with voltage just under 10V.  For any vintage PS-1.  1994 to 2000.

Start out with something around 8.5V on the Z-4000.  Hit direction button.  If it comes out of reset but not moving much raise the voltage.  Should move. G

The Proto1 behavior (failure to come out of reset except at times when you very slowly raise the voltage, sounds don't play for about 5 seconds after power is cut) you describe is, someone else mentioned, typical of low battery voltage.  However you are using BCRs which require an initial startup voltage of about 10v for at least a minute to charge the BCR's capacitor then voltage down for about 2 sec to get out of reset.  Is this operating behavior the same with ALL of your proto1 trains?  Do you have any basic conventional or proto2 or proto3 locos to test?

Out of curiosity, did you test the voltage of the BCR after the initial 1min charge to verify that the BCR received/maintained that needed voltage?  Maybe the locomotive's charging circuit is not functioning properly.  Also consider a quick test by replacing the BCR with a new 9 volt alkaline and attempt to run the loco.  Also verify that the battery connectors are not corroded.

Afternoon GGG:

Did as you advised.......charged the BCR for 60 seconds at 10V on the Z4000......lowered the throttle to 7V, waited for about 20 seconds then hit the direction button.......2 bell dings (ding ding) and then nothing. The loco just sits there with the low idle sound no matter how high I raise the throttle handle.

Bring the throttle back to around 6V, wait a couple more seconds, then hit the direction button again......still nothing but the two bell dings, and no movement, no matter how many volts I put back into the track. Turn the Z000 down to zero....get one bell ding and then the engine sounds lower and switch off, followed by the obligatory little "fart" right at the end of the shut-down phase.

Immediately switched back to the Z1000....raised the throttle from zero to 10V and get two bell dings, and engine start-up sounds.....lower it again slowly to zero (remember the BCR is already fully charged from my attempts with the Z4000) and the air release sounds. I raise the throttle up again from zero slowly almost immediately, and the loco starts to move off, as it should. The higher I raise the throttle the faster the loco goes.  What can I say??????

Peter....(Buco Australia)

Afternoon Keystone:

Thanks for coming to my party, but you have missed the best part........go back to my original post on page 1, and all of your questions will be answered.

Let me know your thoughts if you have any further ideas after seeing what I have been trying over the past week or more.

Peter......(Buco Australia)

I did a quick search on threads comparing the z1000 and z4000 to see if any clue had been mentioned in them.  Sadly, no hints of any issues related to Buco's 4 errant locomotives (or one errant z4000?).  At any rate, GRJ had posted some scope shots of the wave forms. Don't you wonder if there is some fufu dust involved in these wave forms at 50Hz and the 4 PS-1 locomotives.  The puzzling part is the errant locos work on the chopped wave and not on the more sinusoidal wave.

Buco, I may have missed it, but have you tried or did the four errant locos work ok on a standard sinusoidal transformer like an old 1033 or similar?

Z1000 and Z4000 Waveform Outputs? | O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum (ogaugerr.com)

Here's some Z1000 waveforms at various throttle settings and power loading.

Here are some Z4000 waveforms the same kind of tests, these are with an 8 amp load.

Here's the Z4000 unloaded half throttle and full throttle.

People only read the last post typically that is why this horse is dead as a doornail from the beating.  It just does not like the Z-4000 power.  Which is odd because it was made for the PS-1.  Typically, some Z-1000 controllers present problems to PS-1.

As I posted before, if this was me, just to try and figure out what was going on, I would move the Top board with chip of a unit that does not like the Z-4000 and install on the bottom board of the engine that does like the Z-4000.  If it runs now, that means the processing of the power on the bottom board doesn't like the Z-4.  At that point for giggles, I would put the TOP board that does in the bottom of the board that didn't like it and see if it still doesn't.  Who knows it might work between the combo.

If the swap does not work, than top board is more of a factor, and if the good top board works on the bad bottom, that would confirm that the top board and software is the issue.

One last thought, don't remember did you try channel 2 of the Z-4000?  G

Afternoon gentlemen........I'M BACK!!!!!

Life and doctors appointments (for the wife - Sue) have kept be very busy, and away from the layout.

Anyway, I was finally able to do a couple of videos this afternoon showing me using the Z4000 (both throttles), and the Z1000......trying to get the "North Western" PS1 Dash-8 diesel moving.

I also read the Owners Operating Instruction booklet again for this loco, and on page 5 it clearly says......."In order for ProtoSounds to properly initiate the system check, do not advance the transformer throttle past 10 Volts when you first enter RESET, wait for the diesel startup sounds to begin, and then slowly turn the transformer throttle to the off position, and then back on again to enter the forward phase. Interrupting the power too quickly may cause the system to enter RESET (signaled by two dings of the bell)".

Well that is exactly what is happening....two bell dings every time.......no matter how slowly I drop the throttle handle on the Z4000, or hit the direction button at the lowest voltage it will go down to (8V thereabouts).

hokie71: "Buco, I may have missed it, but have you tried or did the four errant locos work ok on a standard sinusoidal transformer like an old 1033 or similar?"

Not sure what you mean by a sinusoidal transformer, but I was originally using a Lionel RS-1 transformer when I first started running American trains (Lionel, Williams, and then MTH), and it ran all of my PS1 loco's with no problems. It was only when I advanced to the PS2 loco's it showed its short-comings in getting the various "features" to work. On advice from the Forum members, I purchased the Z1000, and all was well again, even running PS3 loco's that eventually graced my layout.

Thanks also for the waveform output details......it appears to me that the two transformers put out different waveforms. I think this is just crazy coming from the same manufacturer (MTH), and purporting to be able to run all of their different PS1 loco's.

What I do know is that my old Swiss Buco transformers will not get these loco's out of the RESET mode either. The Buco transformers start at 10V, and go up to 23V to get the stator coils and open framed motor armatures to start turning. They need a bit of grunt to get going.

GGG: What you're suggesting is "well beyond my pay grade" and skill sets!!!! I was a forensic structural engineer in my past life, and know nothing about modern electronic circuit boards. I would be afraid I would plug the wrong thing together, and blow the whole thing up!!

Anyway, have a look at my attempt to video the Z4000 trying to start-up the Dash-8. There are 2 videos......the first using Track 1 throttle, and the second using Track 2 throttle, as well as the Direction button.

I did a third video showing the Z1000 in use, and how it gets the loco up and running, just like the manual says to do it, with the horn and bell features working just fine. I will attach that video to my next post, due to the size of the three videos combined.

Sit back and enjoy (and I hope everyone can open them this time).

PS: I had already charged the BCR before I started doing the video, so you didn't have to sit through 60 seconds of nothing happening.

Peter.......(Buco Australia)

As I promised (threatened), here is the third video.....this time using the Z1000 (poverty-pack) transformer, for your viewing pleasure.

Jon G: I have been talking to the MTH tech (Bill Veale) here in Australia about this transformer conundrum, and he asked to be remembered to you. He also said to mention a former MTH tech - Jeff Strank - who he fondly remembers from the early days when he was in the States doing his accreditation to become the MTH tech in Australia.

Anyway.....let the show begin!!!

Peter.......(Buco Australia)

Yes, I remember Bill.  He was at MTH twice when I worked there.

Swapping is not hard. If you are just moving a top board over.  Remove volume plug and speaker.  remove tape or plastic band.  Carefully pull while rocking board gently.  Pins come out of bottom board and top will only fit one way. Plug the new top in reattach speaker and volume.  G

Funny, I am upgrading a Brass Weaver and it has the QSI 3 board set which is similar to MTH.  The instructions clearly state that MTH Z-750 is not approved along with a few other non ac pure sine wave transformers.  It goes on to say that the software in the later QSI 2000 can detect the input waveform and select automatically how to operate on it.

The bottom is really an analog circuit to determine Voltage level, operating state and offset detection and time.  Using a relay, diodes, caps.  Based on a logic system it can use those to determine what you want to do.  Like trigger the rear coupler when high voltage and whistle in neutral.   Voltage above 10 stay in reset mode.  Bell for 3sec activate PSA.  I guess the top board processor coupled with new software allowed the set to operate on the electronic wave form.  There were bottom board and top board changes, and I know the processor memory and also the software changed and can create compatibility issues with chip swaps.  Unfortunately it really was not well documented and the guy that became the distributor passed awhile back.  MTH had a non disclosure agreement also.  When I first started MTH was already into PS-2 3V but you would see a lot of PS-1s come in for repair.  Still do.  DCS and TMCC made it obsolete, but it was state of the art conventional control when it came out.  Conventional trains sitting on a powered track waiting for a whistle bell combo to activate it's ID (QSI Only) mth did not want that feature.  MTH had a QSI tech manual and I have heard one or 2 other techs mention they had or seen one.  But never seen anything on the web.

I just reverse engineered how they worked and figured out a few trick on the software ID issue. Just like I did with PS-2 3V boards.  Frankly the MTH documentation in the ASC on certain items was not correct.  Like battery circuit.    G

Maybe a dumb question here as I don't know much about the workings of PS1 locos, but just trying to mention something that may possibly be worth considering.  If there were a component failure in the Z4000 that allowed a significant DC voltage to pass through to the outputs, would that explain the issue seen here with these locomotives?

Would it be worthwhile to use a separate meter to check the Z4000 AC and DC output voltages connected to the track with the PS1 locomotive on the track, and also compare the AC readings on the Z4000 panel meter to the separate multi-meter?

@SteveH posted:

Maybe a dumb question here as I don't know much about the workings of PS1 locos, but just trying to mention something that may possibly be worth considering.  If there were a component failure in the Z4000 that allowed a significant DC voltage to pass through to the outputs, would that explain the issue seen here with these locomotives?

Would it be worthwhile to use a separate meter to check the Z4000 AC and DC output voltages connected to the track with the PS1 locomotive on the track, and also compare the AC readings on the Z4000 panel meter to the separate multi-meter?

Leave no stone unturned at this point.  I suggested checking for DC voltage about 50+ posts ago, but don't know if it was ever done.

Morning guys:

GGG: I might give it a go and see if I can swap out the top board from one of my other PS1 loco's that does run on the Z4000......cause you make it sound soooo easy.

SteveH & Mallard4468: Sorry for not reporting back on that suggestion. Yes I did rig up 2 multimeters to the track, one switched to AC and the other switched to DC. Watched as I raised the throttle to 10V, and the AC multimeter fluctuated between 10V and 9.5V. There was no reading on the second multimeter switched to DC.

I was convinced there was no "leak" of DC current from the Z4000 during the AC cycle. I also tested all of the outlets at the back of the Z4000 for any DC leakage, and nothing was found.

BOTTOM LINE:     I GIVE UP!!!!!   

I'm going to leave the Z1000 transformer hooked up to the layout, along with my two other Buco transformers, which are all isolated from each other with "on-off" toggle switches. I will add the Z4000 to the line-up, and install an "on-off" toggle switch to it as well, and use it on all my other MTH loco's that love it. The three diesel loco's and one steam loco that "hate it" will be controlled with the Z1000........problem solved!!!

We can all get a good nights sleep now!!!

Thank you one and all for the suggestions, help, and most importantly, the information that has come to light about some of these early MTH QSI PS1 loco's, and their apparent incompatibly with the Z4000 transformers. Good work there GGG!!!

Peter......(Buco Australia)

Now you can move on to finding components and implementing DCS. 

Mallard4468.....I know I am a glutton for punishment, but I am steering well away from the DCS minefield. Like I said earlier, I am a dinosaur.....just ask my kids!!!

Peter......(Buco Australia)