The two keys are the length of the wire and keeping the sensing wires away from any other capacitive coupling. That would be other wires or metallic structures. I'd try to mount the sensing boards right with the carriage bolts, that is pretty certain to be the best solution.
OK John, I've set up a test unit with 5 pieces of co-ax, of varying length, attached to the terminal block. I tied the grounds together, not an easy task since the wire is aluminum and can't be soldered. The short ones, up to about 18" work fine. The longer ones fire OK, but don't want to release once activated. Very interested in hearing your thoughts on this. Overall, this is a big improvement, but still needs some tweaking. I'll work to try to keep the bolts close to the card, knowing that I can have a little distance if I need it.
I'll start reworking Red Wing. I'm going to leave the board mounted where it is, but rewire it with the co-ax. When done, the longest lead will be around a foot.
Thanks for all your help on this!
As long as the capacitance of the coax doesn't swamp the sensing, it should work. You are grounding the shield to the DC ground, right? The shielding works best with a proper ground on the shield. Although the shields are aluminum, there should be a little "tracer" wire that is copper you can solder to to connect the shields.
The longer wires not releasing makes sense, they're sensing too much capacitance and thus are not falling below the sensing threshold. Be careful with anything over about a foot, it may intermittently decide not to release after things warm and/or age.
Yes, I'm grounding the shield per your instructions. The stuff I have on hand has no copper tracer that I've seen. Aluminum braid over foil wrap, with a copper center. Tough stuff to work with, but I'll do it if it solves the problem.
Is there a way to compensate for or cancel out that excess capacitance on longer wires?
Yep, but like I said, I don't think these modules would support it. See page previously posted below, you have to drive the shield with the same signal that is buffered to be a low impedance and is not affected by the capacitive sensing. That's a design job and a PCB layout. 
That is doubtless how higher priced sensors are designed so that they can pipe the sensing longer distances without interactions.
Well, now that I know the limitations, I'll try to work within them. If I have to use a long wire, I have a simple solution:
RESET BUTTON!
If it gets stuck on, the PTC will kick in to protect the coil, then just drop out the power for a second. Voila!
I'm late to the update, but it looks great! Things are taking shape. Hate to hear of your health problems and I certainly hope you are back up to speed soon. Wishing you the best in that regard! I have a friend that I went to apprentice school with back in 1975, we're both retired now. He has also recently had to start dialysis. It sounds pretty bad to me, but he seems pretty upbeat about it all and still has a good attitude as he always has. Hope it all goes well for you too!
Also sorry to see the un-coupler controls having difficulty, but you are in very good hands with GRJ helping! Sounds like he has a good solution already worked up and you know how to implement it so that all sounds good! I thought those were pretty neat when the other thread was going about them and from your testing earlier. As I have told you before, I find all that just as interesting as the trains.
You will have an outstanding and operating layout before you know it! Keep up the good work and we all hope you are feeling better very soon.
Big_Boy_4005 posted:If it gets stuck on, the PTC will kick in to protect the coil, then just drop out the power for a second. Voila!
Assuming you've sized the PTC correctly. 
Thanks RTR, I'm rather up beat about this too. They say "when you're tired of feeling tired, it's time to start." Believe me, I'm getting there. I go in tomorrow for blood work and my latest numbers. I still have 4 weeks of healing time from the surgery, but the numbers will tell, and there are ways to get started sooner if necessary.
I'm confident that we can make the uncouplers work, with just a little extra effort. The basics are there. The devil is in the detail.
September seemed to go on for a thousand years. It was so long, I had to go look up some of my old posts, just to figure out what happened. As a further reminder, I took a picture of the calendar where I write down everyone's hours. I had a lot of nothing days.
The hidden yard control panel relocation project finally was completed, when I found the problems with two of the big hidden yard turnouts. The first one was a bad conductor in the cable going over the door. I switched to a different one, and got it. The other one was pretty dumb. In the process of removing the panel from its original location, I accidentally dislodged a splice. Found and repaired that and I was back in business.
Based on the results last month with the uncoupler controls, and GRJ's suggestion of using co-ax cable, I worked up a test unit. The co-ax buys me up to about 18" of reliable activation. Longer runs work to fire, but don't want to drop when released. I plan to introduce a reset button, in case they get stuck on.
Saturday the 9th, Gary invited me to an operating session on an HO layout. He had helped create that layout. Sadly, the guy who owned it passed away, but his widow has kept the layout for now. So this was kind of the farewell tour. There will probably be a couple more sessions before she pulls the plug. Gary has fallen in love with my layout, and it's pretty clear why. My layout reminds him of this layout, because it covers much of the same ground, with some differences.
It has been 30+ years since I have operated. I felt rather intimidated. My one advantage was that I recognized the track plan because it was so similar to mine. This was the real deal, with a dispatcher, radios, a fast clock and train orders. I had never operated in such a large and formal setting. I followed one of the guys around as he ran a train, asking a bunch of questions, including some as basic as how the DigiTrax throttles worked. Then they "threw me out of the boat" and gave me my own train. I didn't really pay any attention to the clock, I was just worried about not screwing up. After that, I ran a couple more trains, and by the end, I was getting kind of comfortable. I made some mistakes, including running a switch and running my train beyond its clearance, but I didn't kill anyone, so it was a good day. I'm just glad I'm not in HO.
I was beginning to feel the effects of a cold that day, and by the time I got home was pretty miserable. Ten days later, I ended up at the doctor's office, and my bronchitis had become mild pneumonia. There went a third of the month sans progress.
I also did some high voltage wiring. I have two light switches that turn the layout on, one for track power, and the other for everything else. Each was supposed to be on its own 20A circuit, but I had been running it all off one.
So I introduced the new circuit, but in the process, I created a problem, and the breaker popped a couple times back at the panel. I had one outlet that needed to be moved to the new circuit. The trouble was I only had a single neutral wire in the conduit. Unfortunately, both circuits are on the same phase. I wanted to just push a second neutral wire through the conduit, but after numerous tries, it seemed impossible. I ended up doing exactly what I had tried so hard to avoid. I pulled the three existing wires out, then using a fish tape, pulled all four back in and rewired both boxes.
I had to get rather clever, in order to do the pulling. The box on the pull end had become rather difficult to access, and was buried in the benchwork. Then it came to me, drill a hole for better access!
Now that that's complete, I can easily add more outlets to that circuit.
If it wasn't for Gary, the month might have been a near total loss. Wednesday morning he stopped by, and gave me a bunch of stuff he had done for the layout. In addition to the mountain of waybills he wrote out, he prepared a schedule and all the engineer orders to run it.
Friday afternoon, as I sat for my third dialysis session, I went over all the engineer orders, making notes for Gary. It was about all I could do with the time, given that my left arm had to stay still.
The good news is, I'm starting to feel a little better. The bad news is, I'm losing M-W-F every week from now on.
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Elliot we hope your health improves. Your slow month is overwhelming productive compared to many that read your posts.
good morning Elliot hope the health issues allow you to feel better sooner than latter. you did manage to gain some ground on the layout and some unseen electrical wiring. I can relate to going back and adding a second power source and having to do what we should have done the first time sometimes" less is more doesn't apply" !
as a side question are the trees turning color yet?
Like George says, I wish I had that much progress to report, and I have no health problems. Keep up the pace, you'll get 'er done.
Glad to read that the dialysis is working. And that you are reworking your schedule and learning how to best use the time. Give it three months any you will be able to give all of us advice on time management.
You are a great example to many of us in how to build a layout. This is the first thing that I try to read each month.
Thanks for hanging in there when it gets tough.
Bill
Elliot, Your project remind me of when I was a field engineer on controls for the power company! I would have many things going at once. Another month of work well done!!! I'm praying the dialysis goes well and your health improves.
Thanks for all the well wishes guys!
That first dialysis session last Monday was kind of rough when they couldn't get the second needle set. Poked me twice before sending out for a smaller needle which finally did the job. I'll spare you all the picture of the resulting bruise.
That wasn't the only thing that went wrong this week. My wife ran home during my session Friday. When she returned she said she heard a noise in the garage. I knew exactly what it was, the septic tank alarm. That's going to be expensive.
I've had a computer in the train room for the last five years. I never turn it off. Wednesday, I went downstairs and found it frozen, so I did a hard reboot. Took a couple tries, but I got it, then left it on overnight again. Thursday, I took a backup drive down. I was greeted with the same thing, except this time I couldn't get it restarted. I was one reboot too late with the backup. The hard drive is dead.
Of course the only information of value on the machine are the database files related to the layout. It is going to be expensive to get them back, but given the hours of work in them, the cost may be justified. Then there's the question: repair the old one, or just get a new one. Tough call.
The only good news is that I hadn't started doing my JMRI control panel.
When it rains it pours! 
George - I tend to be a little hard on myself when it comes to making progress on the layout. I really want to finish this project. The clock is ticking, eleven months to the convention, then who knows how long? I feel like I owe this to myself, all of my followers here on the forum and the people who have helped along the way. I need to keep the train rolling.
Ray - It was always in the plan to have that separate circuit. Patrick and I ran it from the panel over to the wall under Red Wing, years ago. Things like that are called "futures". Now it's a "present". When that second switch gets flipped, turnout power, relay power, CMRI power, security cameras, hidden yard lighting and misc other devices come on. The trees are just starting to turn here, much more so up north.
John - There's a good reason why you feel like you aren't making any progress on your own layout. It's because you're always working on electronic projects for everyone else. Dale's booster is just the latest in the series. We all owe you a huge debt of gratitude!
Bill - I think you hit the nail on the head about time management. Not only will it be important for my "chair time", but it will flow over into the time after I'm done, when I have to watch what I do and not over work my left arm. I will have to prioritize projects to do reading during, light things in the evening after, and save the heavy projects for off days. I think I can.
Mark - Too many irons in the fire to remember on my own. That's where the loss of those data files is so painful. They are my second brain. I feel lost without them.
Elliot, Thanks for the update. It always seems like you are not making much progress and then you look back one day and are surprised at all you accomplished. Making progress may be frustrating but you health comes first. I'm glad to hear you are feeling better but don't feel bad about the missed days. You will make a lot less progress if your health fails. Stay healthy and enjoy the work you are doing on the layout.
Big_Boy_4005 posted:That wasn't the only thing that went wrong this week. My wife ran home during my session Friday. When she returned she said she heard a noise in the garage. I knew exactly what it was, the septic tank alarm. That's going to be expensive.
I feel your pain on this one! Although it can be the holding tank pump or float, my last alarm turned out to be the drain field. $7000+ down the drain! 
Big_Boy_4005 posted:I've had a computer in the train room for the last five years. I never turn it off. Wednesday, I went downstairs and found it frozen, so I did a hard reboot. Took a couple tries, but I got it, then left it on overnight again. Thursday, I took a backup drive down. I was greeted with the same thing, except this time I couldn't get it restarted. I was one reboot too late with the backup. The hard drive is dead.
This is a very familiar song, sad to say I've heard it far too often. The vast majority of people with computers have no backup at all. There's an old saying we have in the computer field.
There's two kinds of computer users in the world. Those that have lost data, and those that are going to.
Sad to say you've moved from category two to category one. If the computer has been there for five years or more, I'd recommend a new one. Don't try to do anything to that old drive until you have tried good data recovery software to try to recover whatever you can.
Big_Boy_4005 posted:Too many irons in the fire to remember on my own. That's where the loss of those data files is so painful. They are my second brain. I feel lost without them.
I certainly know how I'd feel if all my data disappeared! We'll have to talk about some automated backup for your computer when you get it back together.
If it's an old Seagate hard drive give them a call as they had lots of problems years ago. Usually can send it in with another and they'll swap all files for you.
Thanks Pat, I do tend to be a little hard on myself when it comes to the layout. In truth, my wife and I had planned a vacation for September, but cancelled it a few months ago due to my potential health issues. So if we had gone, I still wouldn't have gotten anything done on the layout. It's just more frustrating being home and not able to work. BTW, the trip was planned to go through Houston shortly after the hurricane. We probably would have had to reroute.
Wow John, that's a lot to fix the septic system. OUCH! Mine will probably be in the $1500 range. I have a lift pump for the liquid to send it uphill to the drain field. The pump will most likely have to be replaced. I had this happen years ago.
I was just one boot too late on the backup. There are only a few files, and they aren't huge, but the represent hundreds of hours of work. My entire rolling stock roster is one, and the other is the layout project data. Going forward, I'll probably keep a memory stick plugged into a USB and just save to both disk and stick every day. The big decision now is: do I get a new computer or do I just put a new hard drive in the 5 year old one? I am quite confident that the files can be recovered, but it might get expensive. However, when I think about the hours I have invested, even if it cost $500 to recover, the hourly rate would be well below minimum wage.
Casey Jones, I've never looked inside this computer, so I don't know the brand on the drive. It's a five year old Dell. Thanks for the tip, Ill check it out.
I was just one boot too late on the backup. There are only a few files, and they aren't huge, but the represent hundreds of hours of work. My entire rolling stock roster is one, and the other is the layout project data. Going forward, I'll probably keep a memory stick plugged into a USB and just save to both disk and stick every day. The big decision now is: do I get a new computer or do I just put a new hard drive in the 5 year old one? I am quite confident that the files can be recovered, but it might get expensive. However, when I think about the hours I have invested, even if it cost $500 to recover, the hourly rate would be well below minimum wage.Casey Jones, I've never looked inside this computer, so I don't know the brand on the drive. It's a five year old Dell. Thanks for the tip, Ill check it out.
Hi Eliot - Having faced a similar issue years ago in the business world. 5 years is old in computer's life. Computer electronics are almost obsolete when they are released. If it's a "dumb" machine on a network housing the hard drive, just replace the drive. If you use the computer for anything else, get a new one. Best of luck.
Matt, that's the rub. This computer was intended to be used to run the layout. One USB was already connected to the TMCC base. A second USB was prepared to be connected to the CMRI hardware so the computer can talk to turnouts, signals and detection. You are correct to say that this computer is ancient from a tech point of view. I would gladly upgrade to a new one if I knew that I could run my spreadsheet software. I was an early adopter of Lotus 1-2-3. I hate Excel. Even though Lotus is obsolete and no longer supported by IBM. I have the disk version, but I don't know if it will still run on the latest hardware. The devil you know!
Looks like a new computer won't be the end of your world with Lotus 123.
Lotus 123 Will Install On A Windows 10 (64bit) Computer
They even suggest a source for later versions of Lotus that have fixed the Y2K issue.
Elliot,
I'm no computer expert, but from what I've read, using a USB stick for backup of data is not a very good idea because they are easily susceptible to "write" errors for a variety of reasons. Most advisers recommend the use of a portable hard drive that you plug in only when needed for either backup or retrieval. That drive is then stored off-site (maybe at a friend's house) to avoid catastrophic danger at your residence. True worry-warts will even use a couple of alternating portable hard drives stored at different locations just to minimize the chance of loss. Put something on an electronic calendar that pops up a monthly reminder to backup data, and you should be good to go.
Chuck
Thanks for the links John! That pretty much decides the fate of the old computer. I'm already using DOSBox on my laptop, so I can play one of the earliest D&D style games circa 1985. Graphics on that one are all ASCII characters. I updated Lotus to a windows version a couple years before IBM dropped it. All I have to do is find my disk. There are only a few places it could be. 
I was not aware that a USB stick was a potential problem. I have external drives. No problem going with one. The only thing I'm really trying to protect against is a repeat hard drive failure. If the house burns down, the layout will be gone, and the data will be meaningless anyway.
Another option is a NAS (Network Attached Storage) box in a distant part of the house. I have mine in the basement on a wall protected from all but the most disastrous fire.
Finally, there is the cloud storage. One excellent option is MEGA, they give you 50gb of free storage, and their program automatically synchronizes the folders of your choice. I have it backing up all my documents and my development folders, very handy.
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Elliot,
Saw this youtube video a while back. It might be of interest to you for recovering your data from the failed drive. If nothing else it's an interesting video on data recovery. Good luck with the recovery and thanks for the latest update. Hope you can recover your files.
FWIW, I am not good at backups either and I am also going to check out some of GRJ's suggestions above. I have a pile of new WD red drives for a FreeNas server, but I have not gotten around to setting it all up yet. I am dreading learning all the FreeNas stuff to set it all up...
Was watching the video again as I wrote this and there is an added bonus, the guy also demos hot air soldering rework machine and replaces a small chip on a drive board.
Well, while I can't add anything to this thread because most of it is over my head LOL! Elliot I wish you a speedy recovery on everything. The dialysis part, so I guess that will be from now until a new kidney? I only ask because my mother in-law almost had to go on it, but she did something the doctor said with her diet (I'm not up on all that medical slang) to get her numbers to go down and she did not have to go on it. Hopefully you can pull the same rabbit out of your hat. Best of luck and wishes to you!
RTR - Thanks for the video link. I watched both parts and it was very interesting. Unfortunately, I had already sent the drive out by the time I saw your post. I may end up paying a bit more, but seeing that, I feel more confident that my data can be recovered. Fingers crossed! Backups are going to be done on a regular basis going forward. I just backed up all my photos in my laptop. I feel better.
Conrailfan - Thanks for the well wishes. With regard to the dialysis, that's the general idea, but there a number of catches. Kidneys are hard to come by, and they don't just come along when you need one. Until I lose about 75 pounds, I'm not even eligible for the surgery. We'll see.
You have to cut out all cow miilk and dairy cheese, then replace it with almonds and peanuts to lose body fat.
You're welcome, glad you enjoyed the video anyway. I found it pretty interesting as well, but it took me a while to remember where I saw it... Sure hope they can get your data back.
Good luck with your health issues too, forgot to add that above!
Well Elliot, brighter days ahead. I am very late to the party, did you try to "read" the hard drive, or does it just not even spin?
Great catching up today.... Brighter days ahead..
What a difference a month makes! I was pretty glum as September ended, my train room computer's hard drive had just crashed, trapping all of my data. My septic system needed a new pump, and I had just started dialysis and was feeling pretty crappy. It had been my least productive non-vacation month since I started keeping track.
As I had hoped, dialysis has made me feel a whole lot better, and I have even been able to take advantage of my, thrice weekly, four hour sessions. More on that later. I was able to get the septic tanks pumped out (which they needed regardless) and the pump replaced for under a grand. Best of all, my data was recovered, and Lotus is up and running on my new computer.
Even the old computer wasn't a total loss. We put a new hard drive in it, and it works.
I worked on three major projects in October, pouring in over 100 hours. I even had a 10 hour day, and only had three zero hour days all month. Three major projects filled most of that time.
First up, I put the final coat of paint on the fascia. About 70% of the installed fascia is complete. Then I got out the stick-on vinyl letters and started naming places.
Next, I went to town setting up my C/MRI hardware. C/MRI stands for Computer Model Railroad Interface. It sounds fancy and intimidating, but it's really quite straight forward. Imagine having a computer turning hundreds of electrical switches on and off. These switches come in two "flavors", inputs and outputs. Track detectors are inputs, and turnouts and signals are outputs.
My system is made up of four "nodes". Each node has a bunch of input and output cards to serve all of the nearby layout devices. The nodes are linked together by a serial communication line. Each node has its own power supply. I still need to get 110V over to two of them.
This little card is where the serial line from the computer connects to C/MRI.
This is node "A" populated with a bunch of output cards which will control turnouts and signals.
This is node "C", but I haven't put the cards on the motherboards (top right).
I've also started working with JMRI, which will be the software to run the system.
I'll be reading up on this stuff during my chair time in November.
The last big project this month has been building all of my signals for the entire layout. This is where I was able to take advantage of my chair time at dialysis. I assembled the masts and heads at home, and soldered the wires to the LED's.
At dialysis, with my left elbow needing to stay still on the armrest, I would hold the signal. With a pair of tweezers and a homemade tool with a closed eye on one end and a hook on the other, I threaded all the wires through the masts.Those red squiggles (upper right) are my blood going out of me, through the machine and back.
Here's the way I do these: I start with the tweezers, and push the wires from the upper head up and out the top of the mast. I get back to them after dealing with the lower head. The lower head's wires are folded into a tight loop, and stuffed down into the mast.
I use the hook end of my tool to grab the loop inside...
and pull it down.
Then I go back to the top, and thread the upper wires through the tool's eye and pull them down.
Here are all the finished signals.
I still need to add ladders and platforms.
I bought some 3D printed bases from forum member Scale Rail (Don). They really add to the look!
I'll also be adding plugs to each pair of wires.
Here are some of the plug groupings I've made up.
Looking forward to a good November!!! Lots of projects to wrap up.
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Elliot,
Glad to hear the dialysis is working. I didn’t see many posts from you this past month and was hoping all was well. The signals look great! Keep us posted on the C/MRI hardware setup and the JMRI software configuration / build.
Miggy posted:Well Elliot, brighter days ahead. I am very late to the party, did you try to "read" the hard drive, or does it just not even spin?
Great catching up today.... Brighter days ahead..
Sorry I missed your post Scott. The recovery company told me that the heads were shot. The disk was actually in good shape. They were able to read 99.99%, and my data was fine. Expensive but fine.
The Dude posted:Elliot,
Glad to hear the dialysis is working. I didn’t see many posts from you this past month and was hoping all was well. The signals look great! Keep us posted on the C/MRI hardware setup and the JMRI software configuration / build.
Thanks, I was pretty quiet this month. I didn't mean to scare you by that. I just didn't spend much time on the forum, partly because I was working on the layout so much. As for the C/MRI, the hard part was really done for me 25 years ago, when it was first set up at Mall of America. I've just reconfigured and simplified it for this layout. Most of the simplification comes from using TMCC to control the trains, and JMRI to provide the software. Neither were available 25 years ago.
Great progress this month, Elliot. Glad to see you're getting into a routine and finding things to accomplish and occupy your mind during dialysis. Best of luck.
Elliot, Most of all, I am glad your dialysis is working for you! Are you doing home dialysis? Since you were able to work on the signal masts, I thought maybe so. After my wife worked as a dialysis nurse before our girls were born and my father-in-law going to the outpatient center, I thought all you would be able to do at the center was read while the treatment goes on
Big_Boy_4005 posted:The recovery company told me that the heads were shot. The disk was actually in good shape. They were able to read 99.99%, and my data was fine. Expensive but fine.
We'll have to have a discussion on my favorite topic, computer backup!
I'm glad things are going a lot better this month, you certainly are cruising along on the layout. Don't put too much computer control in, part of the fun is actually running the trains, not to mention avoiding collisions.
Elliot,
Glad that you are doing much better and are resolving the obstacles, so you can better concentrate on your layout.
I particularly look forward to the details you can share regarding JMRI for control.
Thanks!
Alex
