My Lionel 8206 steamer has gear issues

Order the new gear from the train tender.  You can use a wheel puller to slightly pull two of the wheels from their axle and install the gear. If you don't have a wheel puller use two screw drivers to slightly pry up the two wheels.  It is not a difficult job but if you feel uncomfortable doing this job I will do it for you.

I have both gears on hand, along with a wheel puller. You can send it to Stew or myself. Drop me a email (in profile) if interested.

Chuck

Just my opinion: if you don't have a wheel puller and a press, then you are better off having someone with the proper tools do the work for you.
Prying off or loosening the wheels using screwdrivers, and then pressing them back with a vise, c-clamp or something similar is likely to result in bent axles and/or wobbly wheels.

Im dealing with this right now and its no day at the beach. I have replaced the gear, the wheel and still the gear manages to move under the wheel and throw the wheels out of synch.  Besides that problem the pronounced wobble when it does run.  I think the easiest way is to find a reasonably priced 2055 motor and put that in.  You dont see any articles about this all it seems to be is rehashed info on smoke units and proper lubrication etc

Running older steam engines has taught me to do minor fixes but with issues like that I give it to a good repair person.  There are usually a lot at play-worn gears,  worn axles, bushings etc.  If the armature is worn then you better have an experienced guy fix it or you will be fussing with this engine for a long time and not happy.  When I  burned up my early Scout loco I bought a 2018. Gave it to my nephews and they literally wore the motor out. A guy did a total rebuild and now it runs like a clock. It is 60 yrs old.

My offer still holds a year later.

Just a heads-up: this motor is not the same as a Post War 2036/2037.  It is a Post War #2055/2065.  It's worth it to have someone who already learned on someone else's engine do the work.

Jon  

Thanks every one for great tips and suggestions!  To Chuck and Stew,  I do hear you, and I'm listening very closely!  Watch for my replies and progress reports,  you all.

Something you might have to ask yourself before applying this fix is is it worth it.  This engine is notorious for running with a significant wobble.  It's a design defect that what you're proposing won't fix.  I had this engine, and I thought a lot of its workmanship and running characteristics (except for the wobble).   Due to this I sold the engine (with full disclosure).  Perhaps the gear has worn due to it having been run with the wobble?  Have you had this engine since it was new?  If you got it used you don't know the hours that it was run while wobbling.

Good Luck,

Alan

This engine is notorious for running with a significant wobble. 

I don't think the 8206 on my layout has a significant wobble. Maybe they don't all have the problem, or maybe some folks are bothered by it more than others.

Well, I'm curious now. 

Did this engine ever get fixed during the past year? 

If it were my childhood engine then I would certainly want to get it fixed correctly.  They were decent engines, not great but okay.

All the old Lionel engines I have and had, I never had one with "significant" wobble issues.  I would blame something else.

I had one of these that I bought new, it repeatedly slipped the gear he is talking about, throwing the drivers out of sync. I had the pin and gear replaced, but it still would jam up. I got a mechanism from Rich Sappelli from a postwar loco, added the liquid smoke unit, and E unit, and have been enjoying the loco ever since. A competent repair person could get a mechanism from and small Lionel Hudson in the postwar era, and swap out the front and rear mounts quite easily. I have since done this twice with good results. It is a shame, as the 8206 is a good looking loco. 

I have two motors that could be a donor for parts.

Thank you all for your replys, I think Ill retire the motor and keep it for parts in the future.

Train Doctor posted:

I had one of these that I bought new, it repeatedly slipped the gear he is talking about... ...It is a shame, as the 8206 is a good looking loco. 

The Baldwin disc wheels are what make this and the 8603 such nice locos. The sintered iron wheels of the 2055/2065/665 don't do the model any justice in the looks department. This was the first use of these wheels since 1949.

I almost wish that Lionel had done the 8600 w/o heralding the return of MagneTraction and stayed with the Baldwin discs in 1976. It would have looked a lot like the 226E(which the 8600 boiler casting is based on) albeit with a 4-6-4 wheel arrangement instead of 2-6-4.

Great replies everyone!  This is a great! forum.  So it appears I am not the only one who has or is experiencing this problem with this locomotive....feels good to know this!    And if i followed along correctly,  replacing the gear and pin,  and other parts  does not fix this problem?  

I wonder, is the gear truly needed?   the other 4 drivers will revolve without it, and the center drivers don't touch the rails, any how.    What do you all think of that idea?

Now let me answer your questions.       No the locomotive has not been fixed yet, due to other life issues taking precedence, The engine was brand new when given to me at Christmas so many, many years ago....the very last loco and train  item my parents purchased for me, they set me up in model railroading and instilled the love for model trains!     The tag said  'from santa"  I knew that meant Dad's hard earned dollars!, money earned from his scraped knuckles and burns from molten steel and breathing smoke filled air for hrs.... I promised I would cherish and care for it and keep it for years!    I kept it oiled and greased as per the instructions, which I still have. and kept it in the original box which i still have.  i ran it  maybe 25  hrs. total , if that,  since that Christmas day.  My locomotive runs smooth with no wobble for about 3-5 mins or thereabouts after i position this troubling gear to it's proper location...then I notice it wobbles  seconds  or 1 minute before the  gear  trouble happens and then all 6 of  the  loco's drive wheels  lock up instantly!    the E unit works nicely all the time and smoke unit works nicely all the time.  the tender makes noise.     When the loco runs, it brings back very fond memories of Christmas morning, somewhere  i think in the early  or late 70's!

train doctor, I am very  much interested in  learning  more about this "mechanism ' you got from  Rich. maybe it is what I need? if i could afford  one, Could I get one, ?  Will you tell me more please?

Here is the service manual page(click to open large) so you can more readily ID the problem part(s):

Thank you for that exploded view of the motor!   i think it is the  N0. 18 gear.  that is causing me problems. I looked at the loco today, and that problem gear, i think I could lift it straight off the steel shaft it is one, if only, the front driver wheel was  lifted ever  just a bit out of the way. i also  looked at  6205 locos and to my astounding, it is an identical twin to how my  8206  New York Hudson looks!   All the driving parts, the  boiler and the underside, even the tender...all exactly the same!   Now I wonder,  having discovered this  could it influence how  i go  about repairing this loco?

 would a video help  ..... of my turning over by hand, the drivers so all can see what i am experiencing?

I wonder, is the gear truly needed?   As  the other 4 drivers will revolve even if the front axle is not driven by the motor, and the center drivers don't touch the rails, any how.    The side rods will help with the front wheels and they will rotate because  the contact the rails.    What do you all think of these ideas?

I'd like to see a picture of a 6205 as I'm not familiar with that one.

Here is the parts breakdown/list:

The 2035-128 intermediate gear is the metal version of the plastic 8600-143 and should be a direct fit.

here is a link that should take you to  flicker and a video i made of my locomotive's problem gear.   I am hoping this video clearly shows to you, the problem gear and helps us all to determine if anything is truly broken..  and what is, and then how i should proceed with the repair.   Crossing my fingers!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/146585564@N03/shares/1N6G27

That must be a revised list, not the original parts listing, and I question the correctness of the data. Note that the 2 gears are listed as 8600 series parts. Same with the armature. The 8600 4-6-4 was not issued until 4 years later, and a different style motor. Anyone have the first parts listing handy?

This is the 1992 revision, I think, the parts were superseded.

If the repairs didnt work, you can buy a new old stock motor and wheels from Jeff at the Train tender.  Call him and order one.

I bought one a while ago, just to have.

I think that is a bargain on the 8206 motor.

What does it come with?
Armature?
brushplate?
pickup rollers?
Mounting brackets?

I am guessing it has the armature because I think the wheels need to be pulled on that motor to install or remove the armature.

The part listing dates 2/78.

Its the entire motor assembly with wheels.

great info guys.  have you watched the video  using the link I provided?  I tried posting the video here at the forum but it is too large a file to do so.  So I chose flicker. I would really like to read your comments from watching the video of my motor before i proceed any further with a path of repair.

3 time modeler posted:

great info guys.  have you watched the video  using the link I provided?

The link is broken.

THIS ONE works, though.

Thanks  a ton ADCX Rob!!!    you saved  me!

After watching the video, it appears all you have to do is press the wheels further onto the axles. This can be done with the side rods removed, using a C-clamp with washers over the wheel centers. You have way too much slop in the wheel gauge. This should cure the gear skipping issue... if you can avoid pulling any wheels you will be in a much better position.

Although the 8206 does not have MagneTraction, it is a formidable puller due to the combination of the weight and the traction tire(the first time it was used on a steam loco this big).  This steamer is the one Lionel came out with in 1972 after ambitiously showing the 8062 GN Hudson in the inaugural 1970 MPC catalog which they were unable to deliver for two years. They really hit a home run with this one, though, with all of the mechanical excellence of the last 665 Hudson, the Baldwin disc wheels, a liquid smoke generator, Mighty Sound of Steam, and new for 1972 Electronic Whistle.

As I wrote to 3 Time, it looks like the spur gear needs a spacer washer on the gear stud to back up the gear to keep the gear engaged to the drive wheel.

Again my thanks to every one!      Now here is a progress report.  SO I removed the drive rods that couple the wheels together, I DID NOT remove the wheels, none of the wheels.....Out of curiosity, i ran  the engine, it seems to run smoother, not perfect though.  As yet, I don't have  the washer for behind the gear, but i did squeeze the wheels onto the  axles  a couple hairs more, taking out much of the ' slop' or 'play' seen in the video. The engine runs smoother yet, but not perfect. But that gear no longer hangs up, it runs pretty straight....so that is good,  however, it was now that i noticed one wheel on one axle, appears to move with a in and out kinda motion or like it is on a bent axle!      I reinstalled the  drive rod on just one side and revolved the wheels over by hand, oddly enough the wheels cannot revolve a complete  revolution  WITH the drive rod on!??? 

take the drive rod off and the wheels revolve just fine. 

I looked closer and longer at the wheels  studying and carefully observing.  I'm not certain, but one axle,  may appear  to maybe be bent,  or at least seems to the eye to be out of sink with the other two wheels !   I am basing this ontwo things, : 1st)  the wheel castings show  what would in real engines be the wheel weight, and my judging of whether the weights on all 3 wheels look to be in the same position or not. The One wheel that is  in front, and towards the headlight, seems to be slightly off...maybe one or two teeth off. 

2ndly, on the fact that when i connect the drive rods,  and no matter how i rotate the wheels , the mounting screw on one wheel  ( either the front or the rear wheel, not the center wheel)  the hole for the screws  that  hold the drive rods onto the wheel just appears to not be dead center in the hole of the side rod.   Maybe it is  my poor vision or perhaps i am expecting too great of precision for this toy electric motor......or maybe i am  looking at a definite clue that the wheels are out of sync?    Can you guys tell me?

SO Now  the thought that, the gear  s ,  may be all right after all but,  perhaps some time in the past, some how one axle could have become slightly bent and allowed the gear on that wheel to become one  tooth off? .......thus causing this entire issue? ..I don't know, I don't ever recall  a drop to the floor  with this engine. ....I'm just speculating as to if the axle could be bent...  this depends on  just how much clearance the center hole {mounting hole) in the small gears around the wheels,  was designed at the factory to have.  ... how many thousands?

So perhaps the engine needs a pros help now?

 But i would like to know  answers to some questions from you guys first.

1) how close of tolerances  would this motor be manufactured with?......are we talking .002  or smaller,  or .004 or greater clearances  in regards to the 'center holes'  for all the gears on this motor?

2) how close are the machine tolerances for the entire motor?  are we talking thousands or hundreds of an inch or greater clearances than that?

3) How true and straight should the axles run in their bearings or bushings?  I would expect a clearance of at least .002   but could these motors have been made at the factory with larger tolerances at the axles?

4) I don't see signs of bronze bushings on the axles......should there be any on the axles?

Knowing the answers to these questions will sure help me to learn  what to watch for and be aware of now and in the future and to know for certain, that there is more causing  the problem this motor is having than i first thought,  and would fill in the blanks I have about the quality and durability this  electric motor and the entire  casting itself has.

 Thanks guys!  i await your answers.

Chuck Sartor posted:

That must be a revised list, not the original parts listing, and I question the correctness of the data. Note that the 2 gears are listed as 8600 series parts. Same with the armature. The 8600 4-6-4 was not issued until 4 years later, and a different style motor. Anyone have the first parts listing handy?

Chuck,

if you have the older Supplements, the 8206-100 original was in S15 :35 Parts 36-37. It was removed from the S15 that Lionel provides.

sounds like one of the drivers is out of sync.

I looked at my near mint 8206 and it has metal gears (2035 cluster gear and intermediate gear). I can see 3 times' engine cluster gear is metal. I can't tell if the intermediate gear is metal or plastic. My guess is the entire run of 8206 engines has metal gears left over from postwar parts. By the time Lionel re-issued the larger 8600 in 1976 the stock of metal gears was used up. Not wanting to spend the money on making more metal gears Lionel substituted plastic gears. What I noticed comparing the metal and plastic intermediate gear side by side from my parts stock is the plastic version (8600-143)  has a thinner hub on the gear. If it is used as a direct replacement on the 8206 it will become disengaged from the wheel gear, like 3 times' engine. On the '78 parts list Rob posted, there is a washer 8206-55 listed, but it's purpose is not specified. That is meant to go over the gear stud to back up the thinner 8600-143 gear to compensate for the original thicker metal gear.

 My guess is the entire run of 8206 engines has metal gears left over from postwar parts.

I checked my 8206 and a spare motor, they both had all metal gears.