Mystery diesels ..who made and what model?

They're more or less EMD E6's.

Looks like might be Adams & Son castings:

Ad image: March 1946 Model Railroader.

Rusty

I was gonna say they look like a "sort of" Alco DL-109, except for the windshield. Odd looking things...

Mark in Oregon

Interesting that looking at the front on views, there are no names, yet the logo outlines and/or paint scheme suggests  to me: Chicago Great Western, Illinois Central, and Rock Island(?).   Guess RR wanted some $$ to use their names.  Guessing that the loco shells looked "odd", so vendor wouldn't get problems with Alco, EMD, Baldwin etc copying exact outlines?

I'll go with the sorta EMD E6, as neither the roof details nor the side widows come close to the DL-109. That said, the nose profile is way off for an E6, and to box structures (dynamic brake grids) on the roof are more at home on an FT. All the pictures I can find of E6s have relatively flush dynamic brake grids.

No idea as to who made the models. Nice collection!

Chris

LVHR

@rrman posted:

Interesting that looking at the front on views, there are no names, yet the logo outlines and/or paint scheme suggests  to me: Chicago Great Western, Illinois Central, and Rock Island(?).   Guess RR wanted some $$ to use their names.  Guessing that the loco shells looked "odd", so vendor wouldn't get problems with Alco, EMD, Baldwin etc copying exact outlines?

It's Southern (very faded herald,) Illinois Central and Rock Island.  I also doubt these having "factory'" paint jobs.  Most locomotives were sold as "raw" kits back then, even on the "installment plan" Body, Frame, Trucks, Motorizing,) leaving fit and finish up to the modeller.

I doubt it's anything as sinister as worrying about design copyrights.  There were less lawyers back then.  It's more likely the skills and limitations of the manufacturer and process at the time.  We can't compare the process of the 40's with today's toolmaking processes.

Rusty

The roof details and window layouts make these E7 or E6 units.  They had the louvered vents on the roof while the phase I E5 and earlier had the recessed exhaust wells between the louvers.  Manufacturer?  Wow, that is a great question.   Adams and son comes to mind, but the nose profile is way off.  Very interesting finds as always Carey!

The "B" units (from what was shown) look very close to EMD E3's, 4's, 5's, 6's, and 7's.

The nose of the "A's" looks like a hybrid, with EMD E cab side windows, ALCO PA (and FA) windshield and head light, on the nose of a F-M C-Liner.

You did ask Jim?  He is making IDing these things a science.

Back in the late forties you could make a mold, practically walk to your local foundry, and have them cast up a dozen copies for cheap.  It is no longer easy, but still relatively cheap, considering.

So these are probably some hobbyist who didn't want to buy the Adams castings.  That's just a guess.  They do have a charm about them, but it may be the colorful paint.

E and F unit noses were very hard to get right in the model world, even tenshodo brass locos had good detail but they and many others never got the nose right. and am guessing because of the time these were offered no one had anything factory painted.

Here's what I see on the cab units:

1. Bulldog nose instead of slanted nose.  Appropriate for E7A.
2. Engine room windows are reversed.  There should be a pair forward of the engine room door, a pair aft of the engine room door, and a single window at the rear.
3. For an E6A, there should be a slant nose and the forward radiator grille opening should be directly behind the cab door.  For an E7A, there should be a bulldog nose and a vertical louver panel directly aft of the cab door ahead of the radiator grille opening.  The models don't match any of this, although their styling is definitely EMD passenger unit.

It appears that these models are intended to be EMD E7's.  Although they are not very accurate replicas, they appear to be from the transition era (from steam to diesel), when there were few aficionados of diesels, and almost no prototype diesel locomotive information for the modeling community.  Buyers did not always know the details to look for.

Somebody did a reasonable job of making a model of "a diesel passenger locomotive," which probably satisfied most buyers.  See how many Lionel F3's have been sold, even with their many inaccuracies and their simplified, inaccurate, decoration.

Botched early E units (E1 to E6). Baldwin made the Baby Faces, not Fairbanks Morse. Look a bit like FT roofs, but they are 3 axle trucks.

Simon

@Rick Rubino posted:

E and F unit noses were very hard to get right in the model world, even tenshodo brass locos had good detail but they and many others never got the nose right. and am guessing because of the time these were offered no one had anything factory painted.

I recall reading in Railfan magazine a article  where the author talked with the EMD E & F series designer who stated that the nose was really built up layers of Bondo worked to resemble what the blueprint wanted, thus apparently, no two F unit noses are exactly alike.  Not sure if this was entirely true as I would think you would have needed steel framing to support the Bondo and headlight(s) etc.  Almost like building layout mountains over chicken wire.

@rrman posted:

I recall reading in Railfan magazine a article  where the author talked with the EMD E & F series designer who stated that the nose was really built up layers of Bondo worked to resemble what the blueprint wanted, thus apparently, no two F unit noses are exactly alike.  Not sure if this was entirely true as I would think you would have needed steel framing to support the Bondo and headlight(s) etc.  Almost like building layout mountains over chicken wire.

Those nose & cab assemblies were constructed out od steel sheets, with the use of large, full-size jigs & fixtures. Thus, all the noses were indeed the same. The bond was just used as part of the fit & finish, prior to mounting on the frame of the unit.

@Number 90 posted:

Somebody did a reasonable job of making a model of "a diesel passenger locomotive," which probably satisfied most buyers.  See how many Lionel F3's have been sold, even with their many inaccuracies and their simplified, inaccurate, decoration.

I've always thought (besides the short windshield) that Lionel's F3, which dates to 1948, does a pretty darn good job of replicating the nose of an F unit. It still looks decent today. It's contemporaries (AMT F7 in O, Athearn F units in  HO) from the era were far, far worse than Lionel's effort.

@rrman posted:

I recall reading in Railfan magazine a article  where the author talked with the EMD E & F series designer who stated that the nose was really built up layers of Bondo worked to resemble what the blueprint wanted, thus apparently, no two F unit noses are exactly alike.  Not sure if this was entirely true as I would think you would have needed steel framing to support the Bondo and headlight(s) etc.  Almost like building layout mountains over chicken wire.

I dunno, looks like formed sheet metal to me:

Doubtless there was filler used to smooth out imperfections, but to suggest workers were sculpting the noses out of Bondo is urban legend territory.

Besides, Bondo has no structural strength.

Rusty

Hello all thank you for your comments

The mystery engines are just that still yes I've asked Jim no identification.

These are Factory built and finished as the other ones that have surfaced have similar finish too consistent for individual kit building by others .

The mystery engines are on the small side here's a photo with your standard Adams & Son E unit which is close to 17/64 scale and a Bay Shore Alco DL109....as comparisons .

Someday an ad or a flyer will surface for these odd Little Engines till then they'll remain a mystery.

Cheers Carey

Well I scanned through Model Railroaders from 1937 to 1941 and couldn't find an ad for these things.  I found a couple of "close, but no cigars" in Megow and Pomona, but the pictures were so small it was difficult to tell.

I wonder if these were "pilot models" for someone trying to break into the business...

Rusty

Those photos are a kick! Keep doing this!

@Lou1985 posted:

I've always thought (besides the short windshield) that Lionel's F3, which dates to 1948, does a pretty darn good job of replicating the nose of an F unit. It still looks decent today. It's contemporaries (AMT F7 in O, Athearn F units in  HO) from the era were far, far worse than Lionel's effort.

...really...?

Mark in Oregon

@Strummer posted:

...really...?

Mark in Oregon

Yup. The original Athearn F units have awful window openings and roof shape: https://www.worthpoint.com/wor...-santa-fe-1824241697

Lionel's model has short windows, but the shape is much better.

In my opinion the closest prototype for the noses on Carey's E-units here are the 1945 Baldwin 2000hp Demo units, referred to as DR-6-4-20 on page BLW-310 of the Diesel Spotters Guide; flat windshield, fairly even nose curvature and that significant space between the side cab window and front windshield. They were purchased along with a matching third "production" unit by NdeM where they all died a fairly quick death, only lasting two or three years in service, afterward in the deadline until scrapping in '57. Later versions for GM&O, and CNJ sported the baby face and then PRR's had the shark nose

How this design got kluged onto an E-unit car body is for someone else to figure out.

@Lou1985 posted:

Yup. The original Athearn F units have awful window openings and roof shape: https://www.worthpoint.com/wor...-santa-fe-1824241697

Lionel's model has short windows, but the shape is much better.

Sorry...I just don't see that. In any case, Carey's units are certainly odd...

Mark in Oregon

@Strummer posted:

Sorry...I just don't see that. In any case, Carey's units are certainly odd...

Mark in Oregon

Athearn Blue Box mold: HO Scale Athearn Blue Box Santa Fe EMD F7 Warbonnet With B Unit NuOld Stock C8+ | #1824241697 (worthpoint.com)

Lionel Postwar mold: Lionel 8100 8101 8102 Santa Fe F3 A-B-A Diesel Locomotive Like Postwar 2343 2383 | #1799860694 (worthpoint.com)

Real F3: ATSF 24--EMD F3 (rrpicturearchives.net)

Lionel got the window opening contour and roof contour closer (albeit with windows that are too short in height). Athearn just cut big square holes in the mold and flattened the roof to compensate.

@Lou1985 posted:

Athearn Blue Box mold: HO Scale Athearn Blue Box Santa Fe EMD F7 Warbonnet With B Unit NuOld Stock C8+ | #1824241697 (worthpoint.com)

Lionel Postwar mold: Lionel 8100 8101 8102 Santa Fe F3 A-B-A Diesel Locomotive Like Postwar 2343 2383 | #1799860694 (worthpoint.com)

Real F3: ATSF 24--EMD F3 (rrpicturearchives.net)

Lionel got the window opening contour and roof contour closer (albeit with windows that are too short in height). Athearn just cut big square holes in the mold and flattened the roof to compensate.

Athearn GENESIS HO got them dead on,  to say that Lionel got them correct is total fiction.

Simon

@Simon Winter posted:

Athearn GENESIS HO got them dead on,  to say that Lionel got them correct is total fiction.

Simon

We're not talking about the Genesis line. We're talking about 60 year old Athearn Blue Box tooling and 70 year old Lionel tooling.

Blue Box and Genesis are completely different. Just like a postwar Lionel F unit and a modern scale one.

@Lou1985 posted:

We're not talking about the Genesis line. We're talking about 60 year old Athearn Blue Box tooling and 70 year old Lionel tooling.

Blue Box and Genesis are completely different. Just like a postwar Lionel F unit and a modern scale one.

I'm giving you an example of an accurate model of an F unit. I wasn't aware there was an "age" restriction. I'll agree that it is NOT fair to compare toy trains to model trains, and that's not to disparage toy trains, which have their own caveats and charm, There are many, many BAD model trains, but not so much with toy trains, as they escape a lot of scrutiny being what they are. I think it's a pretty safe guess the EMD schnoz might be one of the most abused facades out there, both toy and model wise, so I thought having an example of a REALLY good MODEL would aid the discussion. It's a lot easier to point out what is truly bad, when you have an accurate version to compare with.

Simon

Interesting, thought we were talking about Carey's odd E units. Guess not.

Both the Postwar Lionel F3 (1948) and Globe/Athearn F7 (1954) are roughly contemporaries of each other.  They stand on their individual merits and each had performed their part in popularizing model railroading.

Sure, both come up lacking in some areas, but  both continue to be popular as Lionel and Athearn keep cranking them out in the first 1/5th of the 21st century.

Nobody is producing locomotives identical to Cary's mystery locomotives anymore.

Rusty

Hello all...here are some photos from,the mighty web of the Baldwin's from 1945...which is close to the late 45-47 period the models date from .

Looking at the real thing ..the models captured the nose rather,well....sides ?? Well..not so much,

Cheers Carey,

Carey, I'm specifically thinking it's this model.

Begs the question, did A&S or someone else think these early Baldwins would be more popular/successful then they were? Conjecture- what if someone took  that nose, chassis and roof etc. and fabricated the correct sides (in typical BLW fashion, all three made had different side details, for example internal vs external shutters) and apply the correct drop equalized trucks, Voila- a truly rare prototype now "doorstop."

Well, I think Pete nailed it.  Those are truly obscure. Maybe Baldwin commissioned these things to help sales?  Adams & Son would pour whatever you sent him, so long as you sent $.  Wish I could find a foundry like that.  Henry Pearce could do it, but alas he left us a while back.

So, adding to thread drift, I submit my own "noses" study.  In the foreground an All Nation die cast model.  I think the windshield is too big/high.  The other three are various Adams castings with owner-cut windshield openings.  Probably the best in my opinion is the B&O FT.  The SP windows are too big (Exacta, but cast by Adams) and the GN needs some re-contouring, which is up to me - the nose is a 17/64 from Bob Stevenson's stash, also probably Adams.  Pretty sure Henry cast the FT, and in the end he was casting the Ken Kraft FAs as well.

@bob2 posted:

Well, I think Pete nailed it.  Those are truly obscure. Maybe Baldwin commissioned these things to help sales?

Except the sides aren't anywhere close to anything Baldwin built.  They're definitely EMD.

Rusty

@atlpete posted:

Interesting, thought we were talking about Carey's odd E units. Guess not.

Knowing what is correct and what is not is a significant part of identifying a model. (opinion) The LATE EMD E's and F's are identical in their basic cab shape (barring small variations like number boards). Knowing a correct version is helpful for identification purposes. Starting with what is accurate makes more sense to me than trying to compare some of the really crude versions out there. Add to that you don't know who might have soldered what to what. I don't think anything Lionel is a legitimate part of the equation.  (more opinion)

Simon

The more I look, I think the one in IC paint is a poorly done E7, mostly because of the look of the sides and the streamlined number boards.

Well, blasphemy!  Maroon is shipping me a Fairbanks Morse nose casting, and I shall attach it to PA sides and roof.  Then, 50 years from now six folks who have not been born yet will be agonizing over who could have possibly committed such a sin!  They will be seeking a 1940s manufacturer - except I will put a nametag inside.

To prevent such a travesty, if you see a sand-cast PA nose,send it to me.

Good one Bob!

Ok it's obvious (to at least some of us) and from the Harry J. Garrett & Co. ad Rusty posted that somebody (maybe plural) assembled Carey's examples of those sets with E-unit sides. It happened, and does not change the design provenance of that nose casting- it's the BLW 2000 DR-4-6-20 and not some poorly rendered EMD nose and cab.

Furthermore, again, fabricate the correct sides, get the right trucks under it and roof (note roof in the advert looks like EMD as well)  and you could have a somewhat rare if not unique model/doorstop.

Since I model NdeM, I'd certainly be interested in  one of those.

@bob2 posted:

Well, blasphemy!  Maroon is shipping me a Fairbanks Morse nose casting, and I shall attach it to PA sides and roof.  Then, 50 years from now six folks who have not been born yet will be agonizing over who could have possibly committed such a sin!  They will be seeking a 1940s manufacturer - except I will put a nametag inside.

To prevent such a travesty, if you see a sand-cast PA nose,send it to me.

Reverand Bob, of the SCLC (Southern California Locomotive Casters)

And Simon had sinned, and thus was banished into HO scale!

Oh well, could'a been Z!

Simon the decadent

Now let's get serious and put the front of a Baldwin GG1 casting to an E unit body and see what kind of evil sorcery can be cast from that!

Moving back to my N scale now for suggesting such evil thoughts and deeds.

@GG1 4877 posted:

Now let's get serious and put the front of a Baldwin GG1 casting to an E unit body and see what kind of evil sorcery can be cast from that!

Moving back to my N scale now for suggesting such evil thoughts and deeds.

NO! NOT UNTIL YOU push and assist Scott Mann to do the Amtrak SDP40f, Superliner1's, and Amfleet 2's in O Scale!

Your not getting away that easily!

Hello all

Bob have fun with your nose job

The odd engines are 1/4" at best ...Garret / Adams,are 17/64ths .....the two would never mate up,

Odd engines remain unique till paper documentation surfaces .

Cheers Carey,