New 773-200 High Stack motor only runs one way

Just going on a limb but the story of what you are doing doesn't match the symptom.

First off, we wire the armature and field coil in series. If it was open circuit then NOTHING works and you get NO HUM.

But you got hum and no rotation. "but only hums hooked up the other way."

You checked for mechanical rotation both directions, so it's not that- which leaves- somehow someway it's being miswired during testing. Again, this "hooked up the other way" sounds suspect. That implies you are only powering one half- either the field or the armature and not both so they can act against each other.

https://ogrforum.com/...r-type-motor-with-dc

Left half of this diagram shows AC hard wired direction control.

You are probably testing it wrong. If it runs one direction, it will run the other. For bench testing, connect one lead to the motor frame (ground), The other lead to a brush bracket. now short out the field (center connection on motor brush plate) to the other brush bracket. It will run one direction. To reverse, connect the brush lead to the opposite side, and short the field to the opposite brush. The motor will now run in reverse.

Exactly what I did 3 separate times yesterday.

But today it runs both directions just fine.  Same jumpers, same places, same transformer.

And to think I've wired up new service in homes and factories, taught people to fly, and even have kids and grandchildren.

THANK YOU !!!!!!!              Especially for your forebearance.  Now you can laugh.

Karl

One thing I did notice when looking at the motor earliuer today...  The braided brush connectors are quite long and one was flopped over to contact the center brass piece that is stamped OIL - that's also the part connected to one end of the field coil.  I just moved it over and forgot about it, but...  Maybe it had shorted - might be a slight arc mark on the brass.

@Karl Vacek posted:

One thing I did notice when looking at the motor earliuer today...  The braided brush connectors are quite long and one was flopped over to contact the center brass piece that is stamped OIL - that's also the part connected to one end of the field coil.  I just moved it over and forgot about it, but...  Maybe it had shorted - might be a slight arc mark on the brass.

Well yes, that would bypass the field coil so only energizing the armature- hence the hum but no rotation.

Edit- also- that braid is called a "brush shunt". The purpose and logic is- the brush mechanically touches the commutator and the brush tube or shell. That is 2 contacts in "the path" and the brush shunt is there to bypass and directly carrying current into the physical brush so it can still move, but as a system less resistance, thus less heat, thus more power into motion VS heating. Put another way, brushes with shunts are generally an improvement over non-shunted brushes because of higher power handling and lower resistance. It's simply a "better way" than just relying on the brush metal tube structure to conduct to the physical brush.

Also, the other thing we never want is the springs pushing on the brushes to be primary current path- heating them just makes them no longer a spring. Again, all it takes is a dirty or oily bad brush to brush tube contact- the spring carries the current load, gets hot, and then is no longer a spring.

@Vernon Barry posted:

Well yes, that would bypass the field coil so only energizing the armature- hence the hum but no rotation.

Edit- also- that braid is called a "brush shunt". The purpose and logic is- the brush mechanically touches the commutator and the brush tube or shell. That is 2 contacts in "the path" and the brush shunt is there to bypass and directly carrying current into the physical brush so it can still move, but as a system less resistance, thus less heat, thus more power into motion VS heating. Put another way, brushes with shunts are generally an improvement over non-shunted brushes because of higher power handling and lower resistance. It's simply a "better way" than just relying on the brush metal tube structure to conduct to the physical brush.

Also, the other thing we never want is the springs pushing on the brushes to be primary current path- heating them just makes them no longer a spring. Again, all it takes is a dirty or oily bad brush to brush tube contact- the spring carries the current load, gets hot, and then is no longer a spring.

Shorter version: It makes a better connection. ….😉

Pat

A little info.  What you bought is the modern era reincarnation of the 'large stack, gold seal' Postwar motor.  Nothing at all wrong with that.  It is the motor Lionel used on all the modern era reincarnations of the scale sized Hudson until they went with 'can' motors.  Shunted brushes and non slotted brush tubes are the giveaway.  Here is a pic of the Postwar large stack motor.

Yes I see that now.

I haven't actually run this engine and never did understand what the plugs were for.

Is there a place to attach those plug sockets and can I buy them ?

And what happens when you plug the plug into one socket or the other ?

Looks like I should keep hoping that a real 1950 high stack motor turns up.

@Karl Vacek posted:

Yes I see that now.

I haven't actually run this engine and never did understand what the plugs were for.

Is there a place to attach those plug sockets and can I buy them ?

And what happens when you plug the plug into one socket or the other ?

Looks like I should keep hoping that a real 1950 high stack motor turns up.

Not all of the modern era Pulmor High Stacks are equipped with jack lugs. If the original engine had a mechanical e unit, then it was equipped with jack plugs. The jack plugs are what’s used to lock out the mechanical e unit. Some later high stacks were run on TMCC, and therefore, there’s no jack lug provision. Best to post up a picture of your motor so we can determine the model of motor you currently own. I have a gazzillion modern high stacks with both set ups, Sadly, I don’t have any separate sale brush plates you could swap over. I’d have to sell you whole motors……maybe somebody has an original PW brush plate with the jack lugs you could swap onto your modern motor……I’ve never tried this myself, only caveat would be what I like to call the “metric Pulmor” ….those motors are made in China, and all the fasteners I’ve encountered on them are metric thread,….engines like the PWC 773, etc,…

Pat

622-140 is the brushplate with the socket. Train Tender lists them available.

One minor correction is that the high stack motor is the 773-100 and the conventional motor is the 773-200.

Karl if your motor has a copper-colored field winding and the jack plugs it could be a 1950s original.  If it has a red-colored field winding, then it's "modern era" ('80s or '90s.)  My personal experience is that the original 1950 motor was pretty good (as Pullmor motors go.)  I guess the large stack motor makes a bit more torque.  But unless you're planning to pull stumps, the stock motor is just as smooth, or smoother.  My $.02.

The original motor on my 1950 773 runs fine.  I put a more modern high-stack on my newer 783.  The modern high stack came in 2 versions.  Single thrust bearing on the inside.   The other had double thrust bearings.  One inside and one outside on the shaft.  There is a C clip, washer, thrust bearing on the shaft side of the motor for the double thrust bearing version.

Update...

I will not bash the vendor from whom I bought this motor, but let's just say that I believe their customer support is offshore and useless.  And as long as the payment gets to them and they ship something, they're done.

As pointed out by many helpful guys here, I was sold a Chinese motor as a 1950 high-stack 773 motor.  It doesn't even have E-Unit jacks.  I thought (since this is the company that bought Dennis Waldron's parts) that I could believe their listing for an original High Stack motor.

I've tried to deal with the vendor but keep getting BS.

I finally ordered, BY SKU, an original brush plate with slotted jack holes.  They sent me an email with it advertised.  Picture and SKU.

I got a modern Chinese one with plain jack holes.  Months and money and frustration down the drain.

Grrrrrrrr

Karl,

What exactly is a "Chinese" motor?  Is there some way to describe it?  Photos?  Part No(s).?

Without these we have no idea what you've acquired, and are presently complaining quite loudly about.  (In spite of your insistence that you're not bashing anyone you really are.)

What precisely do you have?

Mike

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

Karl,

What exactly is a "Chinese" motor?  Is there some way to describe it?  Photos?  Part No(s).?

Without these we have no idea what you've acquired, and are presently complaining quite loudly about.  (In spite of your insistence that you're not bashing anyone you really are.)

What precisely do you have?

Mike

When Lionel shifted production overseas Mike, they took the Pulmor motor there too….So some 773 production ( the ones made overseas) have motors made there too,…kinda clunky and clutzy motors IMO…..most people have me rip them out in favor of a Pittman …

Pat

@Karl Vacek posted:

Update...

I will not bash the vendor from whom I bought this motor, but let's just say that I believe their customer support is offshore and useless.  And as long as the payment gets to them and they ship something, they're done.

As pointed out by many helpful guys here, I was sold a Chinese motor as a 1950 high-stack 773 motor.  It doesn't even have E-Unit jacks.  I thought (since this is the company that bought Dennis Waldron's parts) that I could believe their listing for an original High Stack motor.

I've tried to deal with the vendor but keep getting BS.

I finally ordered, BY SKU, an original brush plate with slotted jack holes.  They sent me an email with it advertised.  Picture and SKU.

I got a modern Chinese one with plain jack holes.  Months and money and frustration down the drain.

Grrrrrrrr

Contact me via profile, and we’ll get you glad again,….

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

When Lionel shifted production overseas Mike, they took the Pulmor motor there too….So some 773 production ( the ones made overseas) have motors made there too,…kinda clunky and clutzy motors IMO…..most people have me rip them out in favor of a Pittman …

Pat

And exactly how is one to identify them if they've been pulled out of an engine and no longer with it?  Are they labelled 773-100 or -200?  Or perhaps not even labelled at all?

(That's why it would be interesting to see photos; to know if there's a visible difference of some sort.  It would keep us from getting burned like Karl apparently has.)

Mike

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

And exactly how is one to identify them if they've been pulled out of an engine and no longer with it?  Are they labelled 773-100 or -200?  Or perhaps even not labelled at all?

(That's why it would be interesting to see photos; to know if there's a visible difference).

Mike

Well, if it’s pulled, it can be difficult for the untrained eye, …..they’re actually very tight when new, and either take a lot of break in time to get them loose, or dismantle and work out the kinks

* edit: It’s actually been a bit since I’ve studied an overseas one, but I have one at the shop for conversion, so when I do it, I’ll post up pics and we’ll compare …

Pat

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

Karl,

What exactly is a "Chinese" motor?  Is there some way to describe it?  Photos?  Part No(s).?

Without these we have no idea what you've acquired, and are presently complaining quite loudly about.  (In spite of your insistence that you're not bashing anyone you really are.)

What precisely do you have?

Mike

You're right, Mike.  I'm an idiot and unworthy.

Please ignore my posts

Karl

PS - I did not identify the seller, but you're the expert here.

@Karl Vacek posted:

You're right, Mike.  I'm an idiot and unworthy.

Please ignore my posts

Karl

PS - I did not identify the seller, but you're the expert here.

Thank all the many wonderful and kind experts whoo have offered information and advice.

I apologize that it only took one remark to put me off.

I'm not a model railroader at all - just an old man wanting to enjoy some of the better class of Lionel stuff that I never had in the early 50's, and share it with my grandkids.

I'll be gone now.

Thanks again to the 99% great guys here.

Karl

@Karl Vacek posted:

Heard that Trainz had bought his stock and kept bothering them for one of those  motors.  Finally, a few months ago they listed a 773-200 high stackk motor on eBay and I ordered it.

My apologies if my previous comments didn't come across the way I had intended it.  Please don't run away.

Did you not describe where you obtained the problematic motor?

BTW -- I didn't call your knowledge into question, and  I wasn't at all inferring that you were an idiot.  I just asked how you, or I, or anyone else would know the difference between a US-made motor and a Chinese version, so that we all might learn from it.

@harmonyards posted:

Well, if it’s pulled, it can be difficult for the untrained eye, …..they’re actually very tight when new, and either take a lot of break in time to get them loose, or dismantle and work out the kinks

* edit: It’s actually been a bit since I’ve studied an overseas one, but I have one at the shop for conversion, so when I do it, I’ll post up pics and we’ll compare …

Pat

Thanks Pat for volunteering to post pics when you get the chance.  No hurry.

Mike