Blackwater Canyon Line - March 20, 2025, Brick Street Extension Planning

@RubinG posted:

I have found that several of the early TMCC engines with the old style motors had rather poor speed control. I’d welcome your experience.
Thanks,

Rubin

Rubin- a couple of options. You can install a Third Rail ERR AC Commander board. It will work with the pullmor motors. An alternative is to have the pullmor's replaced with DC can motors and install a Cruise Commander. I believe there's a member/ vendor on the forum who offers direct drop in replacements.
All of the ERR boards run on Lionel's TMCC/ Legacy system. I've done one conversion and have two more in the pipeline. One will be a AC commander so I can't say how well it controls the speed yet. I'm sure some of the experts will chime in with their advice.

Bob

@RubinG posted:

Dave, when he did your NYC 3000 Mohawk, did he swap out the Pul-Mor motor? If he did not, how well has the engine worked in TMCC? I have found that several of the early TMCC engines with the old style motors had rather poor speed control. I’d welcome your experience.
May I ask what the cost was ( I’ve got 6 engines to “fix.”)?

Thanks,

Rubin

Yes, the motor is now a Pittman which will pull out the kitchen sink. Pat did quite a bit of work there besides the motor swap, so my price isn't just for the motor. The other thing is Alex M did all the electronic bits as well as some other stuff as well. So, my cost is more than what would be normal. Remember, #3000 has no TMCC guts in it other than after it was converted.

So, overall the work I had done is the cost of high end diesels or so, not a nice new shiny steam locomotive(that is from both shops added together). Depending on all of what you want done will definitely have different prices. If you can do some of the work yourself, that will definitely cheapen your cost as Bob says.

Being that there are a bunch of people who offer their services for all kinds of upgrades, prices vary from person to person obviously.

Also, my engine is now back to being my favorite, lol. When I had originally gotten it so many years ago, it was what I always ran under the Christmas tree, and is again. Being that I don't have a big enough layout(built yet), it will serve in under the tree service until such things change.

Mark, what are you going to be working on the rest of the week/after Christmas? I have only been reading about half pages as of late as there is so much stuff to catch up on most of the times. Never enough time.

Thank you everyone for giving Rubin some ideas about the engines with the Pullmor motors.

Dave, I started cutting and gluing a few pieces of Styrofoam to make a scenery base for this area.  It will be removable to get at wires.

It isn't far enough along, so I won't bother with a photograph.  I'm going to go around the layout and make bases.  I have some extruded Styrofoam and thin plywood to make the removable bases.  I have been storing a bunch of this white insulation cut to put between studs on 16" centers that my wife brought home from a thrift store a few years ago.  It's basically white beadboard.   I don't like working with it, but she will be happy when I put some of it to use.  I'll cover it over, so it really doesn't matter what it is.  It just makes a mess, as does all Styrofoam so what's it matter.

Removable--and even interchangeable--bases are an excellent plan.  The benefits are access, ability to work on the area on the bench rather than hunched over the layout, and, if you like, the ability to swap out scenes for changing themes, locations, or season.  Wise choice!

Thank you!  The ability to access some wiring and not reaching to the back of the layout are the first considerations.  Having a small layout, the ability to make extra scenes is the the thought that came next.  As has been the case throughout, I need to use that Styrofoam to make room for some extra buildings and hopefully store some interchangeable scenes.

Bill Bramlage had an article on this in CTT. He doesn’t like to to weather his structures but he’s an undeniably prolific and creative modeler.
on another front, I think that I’ve found a track plan for my new layout, based on Stuart Venit’s layout in the May 2016 OGR.
ove attached the plan, which I will evidence by 2 feet and substitute an engine terminal with turntable on the for the logging branch.
Any thoughts welcome.

Now that is an idea Mark. When I was building my Christmas tree layout, I was talking to Phil at work who was at the time an intern engineer. We both share a love of trains, and he had suggested the foam board to try to deaden sound. I did also use Rossbed for the roadbed on it, so no pesky magnification of sound as if the rails were right on it(I believe someone had posted about it having that effect somewhere).

After I had built it all, I had though about if it could be used to help add some scenery details. Well, I didn't go with that, but did have another idea over the summer. I had thought about something like dinner placemats being used to make a base for doing grass base or even creating a movable base that would be cut to a specific size for whatever was needed. It could be cut to hug the rails and provide other such spaces here and there. Since it is a plastic mat of sorts, figured it would fit into spots pretty well. Never thought about styrofoam for some reason. Maybe because I always think mountains when I see those.

Dave, Yes, I think the placemats would be too flimsy to move around.  My Christmas layout (which I didn't put up this year) is a sheet of 2" Styrofoam.  It is quite sturdy when moving around.  I used a square section of Styrofoam about 4x4 under the Christmas tree for several years in the past.

Hi Mark,

Being totally new to this hobby I am guessing you are planning to make a standard size scene so you can remove them for access and replace with a new scene to keep the interest. Do I have that right, or am I way off? If not way off I am very interested in how you mate the permanent scene with the removable scene to make it seamless. Thanks in Advance. John

John, Some scenes will just be nature (trees, rocks, etc) like the section I posted yesterday.  That one may never be changed out for another one, but only removed if I need to get at the wires for the track above it.  I am certainly not done adding and forming foam, but this one will be about 2 feet long and less than a foot deep.  I roughly drew the outline of it in red.  (Boy so I have a time drawing with the mouse)  I may put in a trackside shed or service road, or it may just be rocks and a hillside.

In this one I had initially planned to have a town on a hillside.  That was before I acquired the model of the Thomas, West Virginia engine house.  It is about 4 feet long and a foot deep, and has a lot of work to be done before it takes it's final shape.  I still plan to put some buildings on it and trees to partially hide a power station backdrop making it look like it is in the distance.  For my thinking, this one lends itself more towards building more than one at some point to change out scenes.  Regardless, the first reason to have this one removable is that I can build and scenic it at a convenient table instead of reaching over the tracks at 50" high. 

In the second photograph, I need to raise the backdrop since I am covering up the trees.  Fortunately, it is not attached to the wall yet, since I thought I would be altering it.  I also need to pull out the right hand section and paint it.  I ran out of backdrop that I bought from a forum member.

You raised a good point about how to hide the joint.  Planting bushes or trees along the seam is the easiest method.  Where that isn't available, I have seen where modelers have used the edges of buildings, stone walls, or some overlap of scenery.  Sometimes, it is difficult to hide the seam, like if a road crosses it.  I think there you could rough in the road, the with the removable section in position, you could match up the scenery pretty closely.  Visitors would hardly notice unless the seam is pointed out.

Mark,  The question is whether you’ll notice the seam.  I recall someone hanging a hot air ballon or a model plane from the ceiling in front of a seam that not only hides the seam, but adds a bit of interest.  Just a thought for you.

Bob

Congrats Mark on Phase Completion!  A thought occurred to me regarding holding the insulators straight when gluing on the transformer - possibly using a piece of that white styrofoam, jam the insulators in where you want them, ensuring their bases extend the same distance, and glue them all at once.  Lift off the styrofoam when the glue has dried.  One-time use jig!

Thanks for sharing your progress and for being so personable and transparent with your process and life.

Mark, forward thinking idea to make the foam removable to access wiring. Can’t wait to see both scenes take shape.

Andy

Thank you, Bob, Dan, Andy!!

Bob, you are absolutely right; the builder always knows every flaw in his work.  He has to decide if he will try to improve or if he can live with it.  The baloon is a novel idea for hiding a seam.  The imagination is the limit of how to hide any flaw.

Dan, I think your idea of the one time jig could work.  I'll have to try it.

Andy, my forward thinking comes from the experience of doing too much backward thinking.  I have gotten ahead of myself too many times on this layout.

Mark, I confess, I’m guilty of the same thing! I’ve gotten ahead of myself and cost myself time more than I’d like to admit

Andy

Interesting to watch this discussion.

Seam in a road. Where we live, there is usually a road crew with signs, trucks, people, etc and you can’t see much of what they are doing. This should work on the layout. Road is under repair and hides the seam. Remove/reassemble in 5 minutes.

Or you could stage an accident, flat tire, etc.

One unrelated question. The floodlight tower… is it LED or the old burn out every hour style bulb? If no LED, don’t forget to convert it while you can easily do so.

Andy, Sorry for you, but glad to know I'm not the only one and am losing it! 

Bill, Excellent scene and point of interest.  Road repair is certainly something we see here in Pennsylvania all spring, summer, and fall.  I just saw something that says Pennsylvania roads are in the worst shape in the nation.  I know our Ohio and Michigan friends, and maybe some others, would beg to differ.    There is a steep, winding road going down into town a mile from home; (wait a minute! every road going into town is steep and most are winding.  The couple that aren't winding look like you are going down one of the inclines in Pittsburgh off of Mount Washington )  They have worked since spring putting in a new water line down that hill.  They made scads of straight cuts in the asphalt.  Now they are filled in with black asphalt making for a nice straight line, although they are pretty bumpy.

The floodlight tower is a '70s era plastic unit that someone threw in the box when I bought something here on the Forum.  You might say the LED conversion has started, in that it came with 3 of the bayonet type incandescent bulbs missing and one socket has a Christmas tree light instead of the stock bulb.  It is on the list for LEDs when I replace the bulbs in my passenger cars and cabooses.  The plastic also needs a paint job.  Thank you for pointing it out, because as we have been discussing; I can get ahead of myself!! 

I knew that I was approaching 5 years since I started this thread.  My initial post dated January 8, 2017 is quoted below.  It has also been 2 years since I gave up on Plan 'C' and started the present layout, Plan 'D'.  (Yes, I date myself back to 'Back to the old drawing board' days as a draftsman using pencil on velum, as opposed to the 'computer age' where the plans would have been numbered 1.0 through 1.4.)  But I digressed.

@Mark Boyce posted:

As I have mentioned on other topics, our last daughter married in September, leaving us empty nesters.  Just a week ago, I helped her and our son-in-law move the rest of her things out of an 11’ 6” x 11’ 4” basement room she had been using as an art studio.  This will be my layout room.  While I have built layouts in HO and N scales, this will be my first in O gauge, not counting the temporary 4x8 temporary layout that has our Christmas theme and my Ceiling Central RR in a similarly sized room diagonal to the new layout room.

I have hesitated starting a topic of my own layout design as I have been struggling getting some thoughts down on what I am looking to accomplish and realistically look at obstacles and how to address them.  First, this is the most room I have ever had for a layout since my first back when I was about 12, but I never built in O gauge, so there are definite restrictions.

I envision this layout depicting the Appalachians, as I have observed in my home state of Pennsylvania and states of Virginia and West Virginia, where I have lived in the past.  It seems I like anything that was around before I was born in 1956, so steam to diesel transition era works.  I am not sticking to a year or decade.  If there is a car or engine I like that is a bit newer, it will be on the layout.  Here are some things I want to include:

1. A small town
2. Some mountains
3. I want a look of the trains going somewhere, but realize I may have to rely on imagination in a room less than 12 x 12
4. Coal trains and operating accessories
5. Logging trains and operating accessories
6. Mixed freight
7. Passenger trains
8. An area of operating accessories for future grandchildren which could be at a lower level than the rest of the track.
9. There are more I will add as they come to mind or as you ask questions.

Some thoughts on how to accomplish this in such a small space.  As the preliminary SCARM diagram shows. There is a sliding glass door on the right-hand wall as you enter the door from the rest of the basement.  I need to keep full access to it.  My thoughts have been a ‘U’ shaped layout with the open end of the ‘U’ facing the door.  There are 2 windows as well.  I do not want to be stretching across the layout, but may have to have turnback loops at the ends of the ‘U’.  To accommodate my Premier N&W J 611, Weaver Gold Edition B&O Cincinnatian, and their consists, I think I would have to include a loop around the room.  My thoughts have been to put that at the highest level, with lift-out bridges at the opening of the ‘U’.

These are initial thoughts that have been with me for a good while.  It is time to put them out there for anyone who wishes to participate to ask questions, give suggestions, or just chat in general.  At the outset, I want to thank everyone who contributes in any way.  I want to get this close to what works best for me, because I do not want to count on doing heavy rebuilding at a later age.  At 60, I realize I could be hampered in the heavier construction sooner than I would hope.

I thought it would be an interesting exercise to look back at my first thoughts and see where 5 years and the input form so many great, knowledgeable friends has taken me.  Since I have little to add to the 'Finished wiring, What's next?' transition, I thought I would throw this out for any reflection any of you may offer.  Feel free to go back and peruse Page 1 if you wish.

Happy New Year!!!

Happy New Year Mark! I went back over page 1 as you suggested. I think you have accomplished much of what you set out to do. What’s next? I think to choose various areas of the layout and complete the scenery for that space. Which area you choose is best known to you.

Andy

Mark, you’ve made plenty of progress. It may seem like it’s a slow journey but in following your posts. I don’t see to many do overs or anything getting ripped up and starting over. You hit quite a few things on your checklist.
I started over 30 years ago. Still working on the same layout. Envisioned heavy mainline traffic modeling the NYC and having numerous passenger trains. I have a large layout space. But what I was trying to accomplish just wasn’t working. The layout just seemed overwhelmed with trains. The layout never changed that much. But instead of buying ready to run NYC, B&A equipment. I turned to modeling the Rutland. Which involves a lot of modeling as not much is available. Luckily they really don’t  have a huge variety roster to model. Smaller engines and few but short passenger trains. I have many duplicate engines just with different numbers.
The videos you’ve posted look good to my eye. Smaller engines and decent sized consists. While not a huge area. The twice around with grades does make it seem like the train is going somewhere other than a circle. Hope to see some scenery this year on it. That will help pull off the effect even more.