Mark, glad to hear that you’re healing nicely, and hope you’ll start PT soon. The burger hut kit looks great. I like your technique for the brick, I might experiment with that myself.
Andy
You are becoming quite the craftsman Mark! Can't wait until you are all better and we get to see how you scenic your layout, I bet it will be gorgeous!
Mark, I am in awe of all you are achieving despite your “issues” and surgeries. You, sir, are an inspiration! Keep it up.
All the best,
Rubin
Thank you, John, Bill, Mallard, Andy, Darrell, Rubin!
John, Thank you. Doc was well pleased with my report and looking at the new x-rays and incision. On to 4 weeks of PT and back for another doctor visit. Everyone's prayers, comments, and thoughts have been greatly appreciated.
Mallard, No I have never had anything published in OGR magazine. I have had thoughts of submitting photographs, but I always thought sceniced photographs catch the eye better. Innovations when working with used materials, basic hand tools, and less than perfect physical capabilities; maybe there is room for that type of article. There are a lot of us out there who are worse off than me, but others who are in a similar boat and don't try. I doubt I would have tried if I had waited to start building a couple years after I did start the layout.
Andy, Bill, I was actually quite surprised at how well the brick turned out on one try. I won't see that happen again! 
Rubin, I think that is the biggest reason for taking the time to document, to help inspire others. I was inspired by authors in hobby magazines in the '60s and '70s with no way to help others. I guess, the desire to help is finally seeing some fruit. Besides, the feedback helps me. My layout wouldn't be what it is without all of you!!!
Mark, your Blackwater Canyon Line is really inspiring ! Thought you would like a recent pic of the Blackwater Falls - what a beautiful area you have chosen to model !
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Rich, thank you so much for the photograph of Blackwater Falls! We’ve been there many times, but it’s been too many years now.
Yes, I have been chomping at the bit to get to building scenery, but I wanted to get the roadbed finished in a way that I will like for a long time. I do have room between my two inclined for the Black Fork, and plan to hide some of the rear incline behind a ridge with no top so I can reach over for derailments.
Good Morning Mark, I am sorry I have been away for so long but this new job is kicking my rear!
I think you did an outstanding job on the Burger Hut building! and I also think the eat sign really adds to the look and era of the building!
I am glad your doing well with your surgery and that the problems have been taken care of! I wish mine would go away! LOL
Just a little advice for those who are retired, if you don't have to work stay retired! Just spend more time in the train room! When the summer is over I am done! LOL
Mike, Thank you! I’m getting along well considering it’s been less than 3 weeks since surgery. I’ve been in the train room puttsying around a bit.
That's great to hear! Can't wait to see what you do next on the layout after your full and complete recovery!
Mark, glad to hear that your recovery is going well. You’ll be back to it in no time.
Andy
Thank you, Darrell and Andy!
I have been able to get in the layout room, after deciding to not start another building kit. I am allowed to lift 20 pounds, and am gaining a little strength and movement. I decided to do some work on the base for the Idaho Hotel area I mocked up before my surgery. I decided to take the suggestion to make the scenery section hinged that I can partly swing up to get at tracks underneath. Coming up with a base to attach the hinges and yet be able to fit in scenery made for one variance in the mock up. I am lowering the lift up 1-1/2" to make things line up. I will post photographs later, since it is 1:00 am and I didn't take any photographs earlier. I decided to type this while I am awake and take some photographs tomorrow. I'm really not pushing myself at all with this lightweight work. There isn't anything outside that I can do at this point, so I thought I would work on this instead. What a shame!
Get better first Mark. Construction can wait.
Geez Mark 1:00am, I guess you couldn’t sleep? Glad to hear you’re slowly moving about, just try to take it slow. Looking forward to seeing the pictures.
Gene
Just take it easy Mark! I just missed 2 days of work due to a lower back spasm, I know it's not fun doing next to nothing but the important thing is to heal so you can keep doing want you like to do!
Thank you, Dave, Gene, Darrell for the good advice!! It’s just been bugging me how I was going to get the hinged flip up scenic section attached not too close to the upper level track, but leaving a wide enough area for the hotel. I know, thinking like that can get you in big trouble!!
Here is the photograph of how it will work this fall when I can do it.
The white board between the roadbed and the lift up will be screwed down, then the hinges will he attached to it and the lift up. I can scenic the stationary part with the thin rock cut and there will be enough clearance.
I think I will work on putting the LED lighting kits and new window glazing strips in my passenger cars that will be pulled by the K-Line Hudson that is at Harmon Shops where Pat is reworking it. That should be a nice job to do until I can get back at the layout.
PT went well today. I have felt stiff more than anything. Maybe that’s where you can get in trouble doing things you think you are ready for. 🤕
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Mark, I love your attitude and positivity. This hobby has many benefits, but most of them require participation.
A note on scenery is that I am always looking for some form of perfection that always seems to elude me. It has prevented me from trying different methods at times because I felt intimidated. Static grass and an air brush are two examples. But, I have found most scenery to be easier than I thought it would be, very forgiving, and easy to redo if necessary.
Love your sharing your journey with us.
Art
Oh you poor baby! Forced to work on you model RR due to recuperation. You're not going to get much sympathy from us. Just take it easy and don't take any chances.
Thank you, Art and Myles!
Myles, 😆😆😆😆 I know, it is really a tough row to hoe! Where the surgery was done doesn’t hurt, but the back muscles are tight as our younger daughter’s harp strings. The therapist worked on that with me at my morning visit.
Art, maybe it is from being beaten down so many times in the work world or from having to wait so many years for room to build another layout that has kept me going. I haven’t actually built layout scenery since my mid-30s. There are so many more products and techniques to use common items as well now. I’m looking forward to it.
Hi Mark, I am with the rest of the guys and just take it easy. I am just like you that if I feel a little better it is time to go when it really isn't!
I think the idea of working on the passenger cars is a great idea and not too heavy to work on! The hardest part is knowing things are just waiting for you to get back to things! LOL
To me scenery is painting the table-top green and sprinkling some bagged "grass" while the paint is still wet! Then painting the track brown and fishtank gravel or non-clumping cat litter ballast poured on after the track paint has dried.
EDIT: That curve is about a 10½" radius; a coupled two-car train of WB&A 52' interurbans will go around it.
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Thank you, Mike and Dave.
Mike, I pulled out the box of LED car light controllers, LED rolls, etc, and the soldering iron, solder, and tools yesterday. I have a total of 10 passenger cars and then someday I want to do the same with each caboose. Yesterday, I got 2 cars done, but quit trying to get the roof back on the MTH baggage car with the sliding doors. 
Dave, I think your photograph looks great! Scenery is something that can be anything you want it to be. It can be simpler than what you do or so complex that it is hard to tell the difference between a photograph of the layout from real life. I think it is something like the difference in artists; extremely real to life, impressionistic, all the way to abstract. I'm on the close to real life end of the continuum, but still with the attitude of stopping when it's 'good enough' whatever that will be at the time. I guess that is why I compliment and throw 'likes' out at all kinds of efforts. We have to remember how scenery started with very basic expressions back in the Pre-war days.
Mark, your attitude, both towards your health challenges and the work of other modelers is just wonderful.
BTW, the notion of scenery began in model railroading earliest days. All of the early twentieth century companies, including Lionel, AF, Bing, Voltamp and the others like Marklin all made structures, house, stations, dioramas, tunnels with houses, etc, on them. The pieces that survive are valuable but a lot fun to see.
Keep getting better,
Rubin
Mark - You really hit the nail on the head about the various levels and interpretations of scenery. When I was a boy, I used to dream about the scenery in books about the big Lionel showroom layout. I never got to see it in person, but I thought it was so cool. Now I have seen scenery that is so much more realistic, that the old Lionel layout is put to shame. But your comments made me realize that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Considering what was available then, the old Lionel was ahead of it's time. It's a great hobby.
Art
Chugman,
The Lionel showroom layouts were indeed very cool. I was fortunate enough to see both the O Gauge ( as a three or four year old) and the Super O layout. I was also “fortunate “ ( If you can call it that) to be at the the showroom when the Super O layout was being dismantled. The huge mock-up of the PRR TURBINE which graced the entrance and so impressed me was Also no more. I was quickly asked to leave when someone realized that I was a thirteen or fourteen year old kid and had only come to see the layout. So sad, but boy did that showroom impress me, with all the ancillary layouts and the main show in the center.
@RubinG posted:Mark, your attitude, both towards your health challenges and the work of other modelers is just wonderful.
So true, I second that!
Gene
Thank you, Rubin, Art, Gene!
First, I must say I am always humbled by the ways in which my words reach each person on the Forum. Thank you for the encouraging feedback!! I hope I make your day a little brighter, Rubin, Gene, et all! 
My exposure to model trains was Model Railroad magazines. At the time John Allen was the king of scenery; and a lot of creativity as well. HO was the way to go. That said, my desire has been to make scenery believable, though I am not opposed to adding something for fun. I have to be. When scenery has been in place, I have never known when a whimsical article will just appear overnight! I certainly missed out on seeing those Lionel showroom layouts. Seeing articles here and in magazines, they were quite something! Certainly enough to entice any boy and some girls.
Rubin, great story about you being there when they were taking the display down! 
I will add that I received a replacement Cripple Creek Oil and Gas beam pump from Menards today. My original made some noise, bound up, and snapped a coupling at first. I received an RMA as soon as I contacted them. This one works great! It has just enough sound to be believable. 
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Mark,
Somewhere in my afternoon *quiet time*, (wife naps = no trains) I caught reference to your hamburger stand and the bricks. I went back a few pages and found your post and the bricks look amazing! I was curious how you did such a nice job!
That brought to mind an old mill building I started a while back but have had to park for the time being. This memo is to point out something perhaps more comical than useful as a recognized technique, but the masonry on old mills can have a more weathered look, after all.
While dwelling on how to create a white mortar joint on wall panels without making a career out of it, I happened to open this can of flat white paint I had on the shelf. Although the paint had frozen, many times I might add, I figured I had nothing to lose and tried it. The paint had this crumbly dough-like characteristic that lent itself to being rubbed on VS brushed on. After a brief period, i wiped it with a damp rag and the results are as pictured. Being crumbly seemed to help my cause, as the crumbs didn't particularly smear, as paint would have, but rather just rolled around and "found" places to stick. I will paint the trim and doors separately with something that can be brushed. It will be snow-fly before I get to work on this again, as we are putting new windows in the house and doing some remodeling into the fall . (new train layout may be in the offing).
If I do this again, I will use a drier rag, as the smears are from excess water on the rag. The crumbly stuff just fell off.
So if you want to try something totally unorthodox, ruin your paint before you use it!! Also, don't try to stir it first. Crumbs are your friend at this juncture!
On a personal note, I'm always happy to see and read your posts and comments, as they are uplifting, inspirational and encouraging to everyone! God bless!
Bob
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Thank you, Bob!
That isa great story of how you used very old paint for mortar on your old mill model. It looks good! Whatever works is good!
The first part of how I did burger hut building is that I noticed out of the box the composite hardboard that was used for the kit was light tan. I thought that I have seen buildings with mortar that color. I decided I would try to take advantage of that and paint only the bricks and leave the mortar joints alone. I started dry brushing ( wiping the brush on a paper towel until most of the paint was removed) I tried to highlight only the raised bricks and leave the mortar joints their original color.
Of course bristles of the brush would sink down in the lower mortar joints, so I thought it wouldn't work and I would need to add 'mortar'. However, I noticed various color variations like happen with many brick buildings. At normal viewing distance it looks effective as is. I really like it, but it wouldn't have worked if the building wall material was already a brick color.
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Morning Mark, I am glad you got a new Menards oil rig! Those guys at Menards sure seem to take care of their customers!
I think the mortar on the burger Hut looks great! But I think I just might have some paint like Bob's out in the shop that might come into some use down the road! LOL
Hi, Mike! Thank you!
Yes, Menards did a nice job standing behind this product. I was running the walking beam pump this afternoon while I installed LED lights in a couple more passenger cars. I think it is a little quieter than yesterday.
Great job, Mark!
Peter
Mark,
Your bricks and joints look amazing, and I think very much in-keeping with the type of architectural brick I would anticipate a burger joint to look like!! Kudos, mon ami!
Architectural style bricks or mortars were not prevalent in mill construction. Mill bricks had a great deal more anomalies, both in appearances and hardness as determined by their proximity within the kiln to the wood fires used in those days, as well as how they were struck in the molds or handled before firing.
As luck would have it, I stepped out of an ice cream shop in Amesbury, MA just 4 hours ago and behold, across the street was an example of both of our styles on one wall!! Mine looks much more like the patch job than yours!! Too bad there's a car in the picture, as it is a handsome building!
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@endless tracks posted:Mark,
Your bricks and joints look amazing, and I think very much in-keeping with the type of architectural brick I would anticipate a burger joint to look like!! Kudos, mon ami!
Architectural style bricks or mortars were not prevalent in mill construction. Mill bricks had a great deal more anomalies, both in appearances and hardness as determined by their proximity within the kiln to the wood fires used in those days, as well as how they were struck in the molds or handled before firing.
As luck would have it, I stepped out of an ice cream shop in Amesbury, MA just 4 hours ago and behold, across the street was an example of both of our styles on one wall!! Mine looks much more like the patch job than yours!! Too bad there's a car in the picture, as it is a handsome building!
That is a great looking building. They certainly don't build 'em like that anymore. Double height windows, pre-cast lintels, roof cornices..... And it's built into a hill.......
Thanks for sharing.
Thank you, Peter, Bob!
There was a brickyard along the B&O at the village a couple miles from where I grew up. The brickyard was gone before I remember, but there are a few photographs that the historical society has on display in the old B&O freight station, now historical society. The road is still called Brickyard Road. Dad’s garage was built of two different types bricks with the name stamped into the bricks inside. I took it that one type was used for interior bricks out of the weather. Great grandpa had his cousin build a brick outhouse out back that he used bricks that had been fired too long or too hot. They had blackened sides. The outhouse still stands.
Yes, that is a great example in the photograph. Great looking building. I have another building I put together a couple years ago that looks more like the patch job as well.
Thank you for the information about bricks.
Great story Mark, I bet if the Brickyard Road is still there, then they have a stash of old bricks somewhere! I know when I worked for the local Roads Department, we had an old brick road that was historical site and we had to keep bricks on hand so we could repair any section of that 1-mile road. All the bricks are just set in sand with sand filling around them.
I’ll bet there are bricks there too. A garbage hauling company has occupied that site since the ‘60s. It’s right along Breakneck Creek (pronounced ‘crick’ of course) 😉 I’m sure some went into the crick long ago.
We still have numerous brick streets and roads here in Butler. Cut stone curbs too. Our older daughter lives on one that is a serpentine down the hill to town, at one time it was a main road down into town. They hold up great unless a utility company has to disturb. Then they sink a little like any backfilled ditch.
Still, a great road to model on a layout.
I am sure there is a stash of them somewhere!
You’re right, Mike. However, last year they replaced a hundred year-old water line on one brick street going up a steep hill. Our other daughter lives within sight of there. The water company had it filled in with asphalt. As usual, it became bumpy. The council put it up to the residents whether to replace the bricks right or pave the street. They paved it!!! Say it ain’t so, Joe!!!
Point is, they have the stash of bricks. The money was there to pay the labor to do it too! Wait until they dump salt on the hill this winter, and they get potholes!! Bwa ha ha!!!
Mark, glad to hear that you’re feeling better. I’m with the others, take it easy, do your pt, and you’ll be back to full strength in no time.
The burger joint looks great, I really like the effect on the walls. As you know there are many ways to go about this, but I think you’ve landed on a winner. Well done. Are you going to add lighting and any interior details?
Andy
Thank you Andy!! I am planning to add lighting at some point, probably when I place each building on the layout. I want to put interior detains in some where the details can be seen. That is why I am building all of them with removable roofs and in some cases removable floors.
So everyone can rest easy, I finished adding constant LED lighting into all my passenger cars. No back strain at all! The project went quicker than I had thought. Once I got the hang of one car from each set, they went smoothly. Here are the MTH RailKing Western Maryland Scenic Railroad cars that were produced in pairs on three separate special runs by the Community Model Railroad Club of Frostburg, Maryland. I have a matching Vista dome and reefer on order through them as well.
Now that the cars have good lighting, the need for passengers is all the more pronounced. That will be a future project. I was going to run the train over the entire layout, but these cars are really heavy, I mean way heavier than I would have imagined. The Premier Consolidation started to spin at the top of the grade. I decided to do it this way to show the cars and go back later and figure which engines or lashups would be needed to pull this heavy train up over the top.
Here is a set of Lionel NYC cars I bought from a Forum member to go with the K-Line NYC Hudson that I have Pat from Harmonyards working on. They have nicely done interiors with passengers, so I only need passengers for the WMSR cars.
I did all this work standing up in front of the layout using the foot-deep section in front of the South Yard as a workbench. It is 42-1/2" high and is perfect for standing. It still hurts too much to sit very long. I'm using the rolling cart for tool and material storage.
Here are the 4 Lionel cars done.
Here is my next project. This is a Premier ProtoSound (PS1) F3 AA set with only one engine powered. I was going to try my hand at an ERR installation. This week, Mike Regan announced PS3 Diesel upgrade kits were available, so I bought one for this upgrade since I have done PS3 upgrades int he past. I receive the kit in the mail 2 days ago.
Thank you everyone for checking in!
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Mark, for someone on the mend you have been super productive.
Coming along great Mark, thanks for sharing.
Gene
Mark - you are an inspiration! Your cars with LEDs look great!!
Very impressive!!!
George
The cars look great Mark. Looks like a pair of steamers will be needed to pull the grades. Would make a sharp train!
Those F3's would look great on the lead too.
I have a bunch of cars that I want to convert to LED and add passengers. I bought the lighting kits a while back from @Rod Stewart . Now I need to find the time. Maybe I need to find a reason to "recover" for a while. 
I keep buying supplies for projects that I never get too.... the list is getting longer and longer.
Bob
Mark; really nice work on all fronts. You are making great progress. You are an inspiration to all of us. The WM cars look spectacular. I think you nailed the lighting level perfectly!
Question: did you do anything special for the observation car marker lighting? The only reason I ask is they seem a bit dim to me, but that may only be the video clip. I can’t recall if I sold you any marker light kits or not. If not I can mail you a couple of kits.
Bob, is there anything I can do to get you kick-started on the lighting kits? As Mark said they go along pretty well after you get 2 or 3 under your belt.
Rod
@RSJB18 posted:I have a bunch of cars that I want to convert to LED and add passengers. I bought the lighting kits a while back from @Rod Stewart . Now I need to find the time. Maybe I need to find a reason to "recover" for a while.
I keep buying supplies for projects that I never get too.... the list is getting longer and longer.Bob
Bob, the next stage in "Anticipatory Project Component Purchasing" (APCP for short) is that you will forget where you put the regulators, circuit boards, wiring, etc.-- they will be lost.
And the stage after "lost" is "found", but you will have no idea what they are for--they'll be in your hand and you won't have a clue of what they are for or why you bought them in the first place.
@Pingman posted:Bob, the next stage in "Anticipatory Project Component Purchasing" (APCP for short) is that you will forget where you put the regulators, circuit boards, wiring, etc.-- they will be lost.
And the stage after "lost" is "found", but you will have no idea what they are for--they'll be in your hand and you won't have a clue of what they are for or why you bought them in the first place.
And don't forget about the ensuing swearing while looking for the aforementioned APCP!
I fear that it's too late for me.....bad enough when you forget about a TRAIN you bought and never took out of the box (which has happened). 
Mark, you truly are an inspiration. That WM 2-8-0 is one of my favorites. BTW, if you get any grief about a do-called “freight engine” leading a passenger train, ignore it! The last issue of the Pennsylvania Railroad Historical Society showed numerous pictures of Pennsylvania Consolidations like the H-8,9,or 10 leading passenger trains on branch lines. If it’s good enough for the real PRR, it may even be good enough for our basement railroads😉
as for me, I’m still pondering how to make the best of Edward’s wonderful help and drawings. But I’m making progress on the bench work anyway. Unfortunately, I just discovered that several of my joists are 1/8” shallower than my old wood, so I’m going to have to take a lot apart and replace or just forge ahead and try to compensate. In addition, I’ve just come down with what May be ulnar compression syndrome, which makes my right ring finger painful and weakens my grip. Oh well…
keep that Robert and layout progress moving.
Rubin
Not “ Robert” but recovery
@RubinG posted:Not “ Robert” but recovery
FWIW, you can go back and edit a previous post.
Thank you, Jay, Gene, Pat, George, Bob, Rod, Carl, Rubin!
Jay, As far as being productive while on the mend, there are so many things I could be doing that I either can't do, shouldn't do, or it hurts to do, that I guess this is something that I was able to do.
Bob, I should be able to easily add my second Western Maryland Consolidation and have a doubleheader up the mountain. You are right the F3s would look good. That would add a second motor even with one F3 being non powered. I believe I have already mentioned to you that I didn't have any orthopedic trouble until I was 62. The last almost five years have been one thing after another. Your time will probably come sooner or later, though I hope it is later.
Rod, thank you. I had the kits already built and tested, then put them away for a while. You are right about the marker lights on the observation car. I did use one of the observation car boards you sent me. The first try, I cut the LED leads off too short, so I unsoldered them and put them in the bag for another project. These have long enough leads, but I tried bending them and checking 3 or 4 times. I thought I had them pretty good, but not so. They look much better when I bend down to look at them. I'll have to open that car up and try again.
I had the most trouble with the Lionel baggage car. It wasn’t the circuitry, it was getting all four doors back on track putting the car together. I ended up tearing the car all apart so I had access to keep all the doors in line while putting the shell back on! 😩
Carl, APCP is certainly a good name for it. I certainly have that problem.
Rubin, actually the Western Maryland Scenic Railroad has consolidation #734 that they use for the trains. This is my one chance to run a modern train on my layout where everything else is of the 1950s era. They have a GP30 #501 in Circus paint scheme (red, white, black), and now ex C&O 2-6-6-2 #1309. While, I wholeheartedly agree with the "It's my railroad, so I can do what I want" philosophy, I still like to make things fairly realistic and have an example from the prototype like you mentioned.
Rubin, Edward has done a great job with your layout plans! I'm sorry you have some joists that are undersized. I've had to work with mismatches in size as well. I'm sorry you have had trouble with your grip. I had loss of grip with carpal tunnel syndrome, and my wife has something going on now that affects her grip. I think we may be just getting older. All the more reason to find ways to enjoy this multi-faceted hobby!!
Mark, the passenger train is great! I really like the lighting, it not only looks great, but it should take considerably less current too.
I'm not sure who introduced the Anticipatory Project Component Purchasing" (APCP for short) to the discussion, but I can definitely relate to that. When I was under the layout doing wiring recently I discovered duplicates of a couple buildings that I thought I only had one of. The two dairies that I bought worked out great because I used them both to make a kit bashed Morrell Packing Co. for my layout. The two feed stores also worked out great, one for the Iowa section of my layout and the other for the Kansas portion, but that definitely wasn't the original plan. I'm also a little over-bought on Lionel Grain Elevators.
Art
Thank you, Art! I agree it will take less current! I should have checked before and after, but I just started into the project and before I knew it, I was done.
I did open up the Western Maryland observation car and adjusted the marker LED on one side. The other looked good as is, so I matched them up. Much better now. Thank you, Rod for pointing it out. I forgot to take a photograph, so I guess it really didn't happen! 
“APCP” says it all. Somewhere in the late ‘70’s or early ‘80’s, when we were both modeling the Pennsylvania in HO, we were presented with “ the opportunity of a lifetime “ to buy a store’s entire stock of cardboard sides, cast metal ends and other parts sufficient to build about 20 wooden reefers and PRR X-29 and 23 boxcars, for about $5.00 per car plus trucks and kadee couplers. Of course, we had to grab this bargain! Not long thereafter manufacturers came out with far better cars in plastic and even brass. Needless to stay, these “gotta have” kits are still sitting in boxes somewhere. APCP indeed.
Those NYC cars are going to look great behind that K-Line Hudson when it gets back from Pat Mark. Gotta love it.
Mark,
When my grandfather was 90, he complained about getting old. When I said, “Grandpa, it beats the alternative.” He looked at me and said, “ What do you know?”
You're so right about Edward. I keep each of his plans in a file and I keep pouring over them, looking over each to determine what I’m going to do, even as I keep moving forward on the bench work. Now if I could only find someone to help. Lift 3x8 and 4x8 plywood.
Thank you, Rubin, Dave!
Rubin, I still have some HO and N scale parts for projects abandoned long ago. Some of them could be used on the O gauge layout in the background as forced perspective. Others, well who knows?
Dave, When Pat was working with me on what I wanted in the K-Line Hudson upgrade, I still had the track in the over and under configuration with approximately 4% grades. Since I converted the layout to a high line and a water level line with two connecting inclines, the inclines wound up at about 5%. Pat assured me that the conversion would have more enough pulling power to handle the train on 4% grades. I have no concern about it handling the extra percent grade.
For anyone who may have missed it, I used the 18" heavyweight cars as a guide for getting enough side clearance on the lower level. That whole discussion, including photographs of where I ground off the sides of supports with the Dremel, is a few pages back. Maybe more pages back than I would recall.
Mark, I don't remember what post, topic, maybe even email with Pat and I, but he assured me on my Mohawk that pulling power was never ever going to be an issue. The Mohawk has no traction tires, and Pat said of it that it would be more realistic to see the wheels spin for a bit if it came to that. He had a video of one of his Hudson's pulling the kitchen sink of cars from diecast to heavyweights. I think if this was a topic/post, Pete(Norton) also commented the same on it.
Boy, am I with you, Mark. I’ve got two boxes containing about 13 brass locos from PFM, LMB, and others. I’ve also got two large boxes with FSM, SS LTD, Campbell and other kits, not to mention the boxes of Athearn, AHM and other plastic cars and locos. I keep meaning to sell this stuff, but who’s got the time?
Thank you, Dave and Rubin!
Dave, my grades will put the Hudson to the test. I have to double-head Consolidations to pull the heavier-than-I would have thought 6-car RailKing Western Maryland Scenic Railroad streamliners. What's more, there is still a Vistaliner and reefer on order to complete that train. I want to see the difference the Hudson makes. I didn't want 5+% grades, but in a small room, it is still practical.
Rubin, I think everyone of us who has been around a while has boxes with assorted kits, parts, materials.....I'm hoping to make use of some of it as I get older nd may not be able to buy much for the layout anymore.
I have encountered a new conundrum on a project that I just got in one hour of work. I'm going to make a new thread for it since it really is about engines and not the layout per se.
Mark,
As you probably know, the challenge with longer base locomotives and sharp grades, in addition to just the grade itself, is the vertical “ curve” or transition at the beginning of the grade which can cause a short as the cow catcher hits the third rail as it begins its ascent when the transition is too sharp. I’m trying to game that out even as we speak.
Rubin
I’d you all have the ability to read the past digital issues, there’s a nice article about grades in run 208 June 2005. Nice tips that I’m using as I make a grade down to a lower yard level in my layout addition.
Mark, in an older video by Eric of Eric's Trains he was talking about his incline, and how the incline was not exactly easy. I don't remember what the grade calculated out to, but it was something like yours. His trains granted have a long straightaway that I guess you could say eases it slowly. Most of the trains he has run up it have been MU'd Diesels, or big steam like the Big Boy and the like. I want to say that the video was one of his layout tours maybe 4-5 years or so ago. Those tour videos are actually dang good to watch, and very long videos too boot.
I can't resist talking about grades on a model railroad. I wanted to limit mine to no more than 2%, but ended up with one that is 2 1/2%. They don't look bad, but it can be hard on traction tires. And all of mine have 072 curves on them which adds to the difficulty. I can easily run 10 to 12 cars on mine with freight trains with one engine. Passenger trains are harder to pull, I'm not sure why?
I think we all want the least percentage of grade possible, but it's really tough in O gauge to find the space. It comes down to to sometimes you just have to make compromises. Your railroad looks great and I agree with what you have done. Oh, I visited a beautiful 2-rail O gauge layout this spring and he had over 5% grades and of course no traction tires. He has a mountain railroad and he uses helper engines to get his long trains over the grades. The wheels slip a little and the steam engines really have deep chuffs, but it looks and works great.
Art
Mark, nice work on the lighting. I just changed out some caboose lighting. Nice relaxing job on a rainy day.
I believe the biggest issue with pulling passenger cars is not so much the size or weight. Is the amount of drag on the cars from all the pickup rollers. The axle wipers may play a part in it also.
Rubin, I can attest to the cow catcher shorting out. I don’t even have steep grades. I adapted a different pilot to a 4-8-2 project. Made up a bracket to install and it did sit a bit lower as usually Lionel’s scale front coupler will hit the Kadee height gauge pretty close. Seeing this engine would not be used in a doublehead. I left it as was seeing it looked really good. Would short on what I consider a slight transition to level coming down a grade. Luckily it was easily fixed with a shim.
Chugman,
in my experience, traction tires are the bane of our lives. They wear out much sooner than they should and replacing them, especially on steam engines, is a royal pain. Last year I bought a new MTH Empire State 4-4-0. It ran very unevenly and when I examined the wheels, there was no evidence of prior use but one of the traction tires was simply not there! It really makes me wonder how we will keep our fleets running (or us!😊) in 5-10 years when all our “ rubber bands…er…traction tires need replacement.
sorry for the rant, but…
Thank you Rubin, LT1Poncho, Dave P, Art, Dave C!
Rubin, Dave C, Quite a few pages back, we went through all my troubles with the vertical transition. The bottom of on grade was a sharp enough transition the the engine shorted on the center rail, so I had to do quite a bit of shimming. At the top of the other grade, I had pilot wheels on at least one steamer and front truck wheels on 3-axle diesel trucks lift off the track and derail. That one was a whole lot more work, removing track, shaving down the 'bump' and putting the track back, only to discover I hadn't taken enough off. Oh what a mess!
LT1Poncho, I am a digital subscriber, so I will go back and look at that issue. Thank you!!!
Dave P, I recall watching a layout tour video of Eric's layout. It was probably 5 years ago now. I can recall various scenes, but not so much about the grades. I'll have to take another look! Soo much to see; so little time!
Dave C, I want to replace the caboose lighting as well. You have a great observation about all the drag that is on a train of passenger cars! I didn't think of it.
Art, you have a good point about helpers and wheel slipping actually being part of the fun!! Yes, I threw a traction tire twice pulling the 6-car train, and finally just cut it off with scissors.
Rubin, You are so right about traction tires on steam engines! I have replaced them on diesels and steam engines alike. Some, I haven't even replaced them and ran without. I have some engines missing them and don't even recall which ones.
Thank you for all the great comments!!
Mark,
Sorry if I'm slightly off-topic, but I've been reading back and see some discussions about grades and tires. I may have one of the whackiest grades out there but my MU'd diesels easily handle these 9 cars of real marble from my quarry up about 15% to the main. The scale weight of each car is roughly 90K. Admittedly, this is more a lack of space thing than any sort of point to prove, but it does work. There are some quarries in Vermont with very steep grades that use switch-backs.
I shot this video back in the "proof-of-concept" stage, so things look a little ragged. (like my wiring) Sadly, I had to dismantle my layout for renovations to the house. When I rebuild my layout this winter, I will try to cut the quarry branch down to <10%.
For inquiring minds, there are a few tires at the top, but not as many as one might expect.
As an aside, maybe someone can tell me how to put new tires on a Railking SD-60, short of buying a new one. It seems to be ghastly job when compared to MTH Premium locos and makes the case for just MUing it with something that will actually pull.
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@endless tracks thank you for writing. I do not think your comments were off-topic at all! The last few pages of discussion have dealt with the design, building, testing, and first running of the revised layout with increased grades. I had performed a run of 2 steam engines pulling and one pusher just for fun on the previous rendition when the layout was a simple over and under. Two engines would have sufficed, but I wanted to just see how it looked. Your video of the 3 engines moving the load of marble up your very steep grade. Incidentally, those marble loads look great! I am sure the grades out of the quarries are rather steep as well. Thank you for the video!
I'm sorry you had to dismantle your layout, but that provides a reason to improve the next, as you pointed out.
I am afraid I can't help you with replacing tires on an SD60. The most modern, and only 6-axel diesel I have is an SD7, which doesn't have much run time.
At some point, this whole thread is going to transition from "Track plans and layout design" to "Scenery and Structures". Maybe it already has, though I think I have been proving that the design works. I'll be asking the moderators to move it, which I think will be seamless to all who are following. I'll check on that when asking.
@Mark Boyce posted:Thank you, Rubin, Art, Gene!
First, I must say I am always humbled by the ways in which my words reach each person on the Forum. Thank you for the encouraging feedback!! I hope I make your day a little brighter, Rubin, Gene, et all!
My exposure to model trains was Model Railroad magazines. At the time John Allen was the king of scenery; and a lot of creativity as well. HO was the way to go. That said, my desire has been to make scenery believable, though I am not opposed to adding something for fun. I have to be. When scenery has been in place, I have never known when a whimsical article will just appear overnight!
Rubin, great story about you being there when they were taking the display down!
I will add that I received a replacement Cripple Creek Oil and Gas beam pump from Menards today. My original made some noise, bound up, and snapped a coupling at first. I received an RMA as soon as I contacted them. This one works great! It has just enough sound to be believable.
That is the name of our gun range we built. I will definitely have to find one.
Evening Mark, I hope you're doing well with your recovery! From what I have seen and read here on your page from the last time I was here you sure have been busy!
I think your passenger car lighting looks great! Sometime down the road I have a bunch of Amtrak cars to do if I ever get around to it! LOL
I can't wait to see your PS3 upgrade in action, sound like it might be the ticket for your grade issue. Either way it is nice to see your plugging away at projects you can do!
FWIW I did get out in the train room the last couple of days but have been too tired at the end of the day to post anything, I will be posting in What did you do on your layout today thread tomorrow morning before I go back out to try and get more done.
Have a great night and you will probably be reading this at 0 dark thirty as your sleep pattern is still a little off!
Mark,
Thanks for your nice reply. I said "off topic" because I can't offer much in the LED lighting department, except to say that I have had terrific results using USB chargers to power LED lighting in remote buildings. Simply take your old camera or phone cord, cut the end off, and hook to your remote buildings or street lighting. The phone chargers are 5 VDC just like the LEDs, so no resisters are required. I tried it on a hunch. If you mess up the polarity, just switch the leads. I put all my layout stuff away, so I don't have a picture (spent 2 hours looking..LOL).
I'd love to see a video of your (3) steam engines in the arrangement you described. I only have 2 steamers, but have been drooling for over a year on a Maine Central USRA Light Mikado. At ~$1,200.00 it's just not in the budget right now. I have several diesels and have been pushed, more or less, into 3-axle power just to get the road names I want. Railfanning in northing New England can be rather pathetic comparatively, with very limited road names available in O-scale models. When they model Vermont Railways, for example, in 3-axle power, that's what I have to buy. Life could be worse!
Pics are ones I took last fall of the world's deepest/largest granite quarry in Barre, VT. The gondolas are full of tailings, which frequently get shipped to coastal states for rip-rap and seawalls. Each large block around the yard is marked with dimensions. When I have more time, I want to follow suit and mark the blocks I use. I also bought a scale Atlas-Copco rock drill to set up once I get back in the swing of things here.
I love your walking beam model. It's great to have real action in the scenery! I have a lot to learn about scenery and structures, so I'm looking forward to your next topic. Take care!
Bob
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Thank you Southern4501, Mike, Bob!!
Southern, it sounds like the Menards walking beam pump is a must have!!
Mike, I sent you a 'Like' in the wee hours, but waited to write. I go back to the surgeon tomorrow and wrap up PT on Thursday. I am doing a lot better, but hope he lets me go back on my anti-inflammatory for my sciatic nerve that was damaged almost 5 years ago. That med acts as a blood thinner. I didn't know that, since they had me on a different one when I had surgery two years ago.
Thank you on the LED lit cars! I am very happy with them. I need to research what resister I need to add the units and LEDs into my cabooses/cabeese. I'm glad you have been able to get into the train room some, and look forward to seeing what you have been doing!
Bob, Oh now I see what you meant by off topic; the LED lighting. I have gotten used to us going back and forth in projects so much, I missed that! Good point. Good idea on the USB phone chargers. It seems all of us have extra of those these days.
Here's the video I took of the double header with a helper on the end. This was when the layout was configured as over and under. The conversion to what I have now wasn't that bad. I was able to reuse a lot. All of these engines were bought used; averaged $450 each. Yes, new steam engines are really steep.
The photographs of the quarry are great! I have heard of it near Barre, Vermont! Thank you for the photographs!!
Great video Mark! I really like the helper at the end!
Great video Mark! Good luck tomorrow.
Gene
Mark,
Nice job on the video(s). I watched several! Once you get started on Youtube, it can be hard to turn off. Perhaps you can relate! I also watch ed your passenger cars. Nice job on the lighting!
I was noting in particular the amazing layout construction, and also the log cars. Did you make the logs? I see most log cars come with loads of 4' pulpwood, but I went out in the woods and cut up real red oak. I did that mostly for weight. I bought about 10 Central Vermont flats and use them with my (40') logs.
I also have a milk train as I saw in your "first run" video. Seems we have some like-minded interests! I have some Hood milk cars which I pull with a Rutland RR Steamer to a yard serviced by my Boston & Maine steam switcher. That is the extent of my present-day steamer inventory. The run from the Vermont dairies to Boston milk market was the order of the day back then. Where I cheat is I also tack on 2-3 Central Vermont milk cars but Rutland and CV were mortal enemies. Anything CV would NEVER be behind a Rutland loco!
Not entirely sure what you're having done as I am still a newbie here, but good luck! I'll be 70 in 6 weeks and have had my share of things tweaked over the years, including 2 fusions, 2-carpal tunnels, 1-knee, 1-shoulder, etc , so I can relate! Best wishes!
Bob
Thank you, Mike, Gene, Bob!
Bob, you are right about watching YouTube. I like to watch short videos of trains; I end up skipping forward on longer videos. The logs came with the cars. They really looked great, but the chains were so hard to hook on to stay with arthritis, I sold them last year. That gave me some money for something else, but now I can't recall what?
Ah, you saw the 4 Otto Milk cars. I saw the first one at a train show, and recalled the Otto radio commercial from childhood with the cream top bottles. I happened to see in small print under the door it said to return to the plant at New Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. I didn't know it was there. My wife's grandparents were from New Bethlehem, a small river town kind of in the middle of nowhere here in Northwestern Pennsylvania. Then I saw Mr Muffin put out a special run with 2 different car numbers, so I ordered them. Before they arrived, I bought another, with yet another car number. That is how my milk train or milk section of the iced reefers came about. I know milk cars are quite popular in Vermont and maybe other places in New England, travelling to Boston.
I had a second, less evasive back surgery six weeks ago. Two years ago, I had a lumbar fusion. Oh, I had one knee replaced two years before that. I've had carpal tunnel surgery on each hand twice - 20 years apart. I'll be 67 soon, so I am right behind you. I seem to not resist writing about a surgery to explain a gap in working on the layout, and these guys here really hold me to it to not overdo it too fast. Everyone here is an encouragement!! Thank you for the best wishes!!!
I'll have to post an update on my PS3 upgrade thread. While they aren't beyond my skill level, there seems to be a different sticking point each time. Usually the problem is mechanical, not electrical.
Well done MARK….enjoyed the WM Fireballs….starting to become a favorite RR of mine too…thanks keep up the good work….also like the pusher at the end.👍👍
Mark, nice work on the lighting!
BTW passenger cars are harder to pull because of the added passenger's weight.
Thank you, Laz, RJ!!
I have always liked the fireball logo. I have liked it better than the WM speedletter. I was inspired by photographs of WM coal trains going up the Black Fork grade with one steam engine for every 10 cars. A photograph sequence showed a 70 car train with engine cut in the middle and pushers. Later they used RS3s. I have two RailKing Scale RS3s, one in fireball and one in speedletter I want to put on the trains also.
RJ, mystery solved!! Thank you!! 😊 😉
Mark, I really like the look of the passenger car lighting and how smoothly the trains run. You have some nice individual scenes, but when put together in a video, wow. Just think how great everything will look with more scenery details. And you say you’re still recovering? You make more progress than anyone on the forum!
Andy
WOW Mark! I've been away for a bit busy with summer and family. I must say you have made great progress on the layout since last I checked! Great work!!
Thank you, Andy, T-Bone1214!!
Andy, the surgeon told me on Monday I’m allowed to lift up to 30 pounds and to start in to normal activities, with moderation of course.
I do need to make more videos, especially one with a train running on one level then move to the other. I’m going to wrap up a PS3 upgrade on an old F3, then show it off.
T-Bone, since I wasn’t allowed to do any mowing or yard work over the summer, it has been a productive time for the easier tasks on the layout! 👍🏻
Great news on the back. I wouldn't lift 30 pounds no matter what the doc says. No point in tempting fate. But keep doing the PT. Layout is coming along great. I've gone back and have been reading your entire thread.
Thank you, Myles! I was going to add, no way I would try 30 pounds. I need more PT as you said.
Going back and reading from the beginning!! Oh no! You are in for a very convoluted storyline! 😄 Thank you for your comments!
Mark,
You are truly an inspiration, especially as I begin to deal with my own issues. EMG next week, X-rays today and MRIs likely to follow. Then …??? In the meantime, I’m trying to find someone to help me hoist 4x8 and 3x8 pieces of 3/4” ( ha-ha) plywood so I can cut subroadbed or even go cookie cutter for a while, just to get some trains running.
Keep getting better,
Rubin
Oh my, Rubin! I’ve been through all of that! ☹️ I wish I was recovered more or I could slip over and help you out with the plywood. Eventually, I am supposed to be up to it; like next year! I’m going to send you a personal message later! Thank you!
Glad to hear that you’re improving Mark, it can be difficult, but you seem to be on a good path. I look forward to the PS3 upgrade. Can you make a video detailing that process?
Andy
Thank you, Andy! Progress has been very good for rehab; much faster than the lumbar fusion and knee replacement. Those surgeries were much more invasive. I definitely would set off a metal detector. 😆
On to the layout and trains. A video is a good idea, I never thought of it. I have everything mounted and the wires connected. They have you test it in conventional, and that worked. I did that with the shell off and before I tidied up the wires. I still have to finish that. Now I have to install the file loader software on my laptop, since I lost it when my old desktop crashed last summer. Everything was backed up. I’ll see if I can do a video describing what I did for the conversion since everything is still open to be seen.
@Steamfan77 Andy, I haven’t forgotten the video. The few chances I had to video, there was some non-train related noise going on that would interfere. I still have the shell off but have the correct sound file loaded and everything works except the green marker lights are on when in reverse and off when in forward. 🤪 So, I’ll get a video going sometime.
I bought some material for the lower lift up bridge. It will look more like the one at the bottom of the real Blackwater Canyon than what I have now.
HI Mark- Can't wait to see the F3. I'm vaguely familiar with upgrading one......
Good to hear the file upload went well. I had MTH program the boards for my S2 since I don't have a TIU. For the markers, could be as simple as swapping the wires?
Bob
Bob, I searched the forum to find out what I was doing wrong that the sound file upload wouldn’t work. I realized how vaguely familiar I was when I saw my posts from over 5 years since I upgraded the BL-2!! 🙄
I’ll send you an email, since the upgrade is a bit off topic from layout planning and construction! How do I get myself off topic so much? 🤷♂️ I do have another topic related to the F3 where I will post and share the link here. 👍🏻
No rush Mark, there is a lot that goes into this. And as you’ve seen (and heard 😉) timing is everything. Pun intended 😁
Andy
Andy and everyone who is interested, I decided to post my F3 PS3 upgrade video elsewhere and add a link here since the discussion really isn't part of the layout design and build. The video is at:
When I Forgot About an F3 Preorder and Now Have a Redundant Project on the Workbench - "My Solution"
Here it is on the rails.
Yesterday I finished a PS3 upgrade on a 1995 Premier ProtoSound Western Maryland F3. The innards aren't pretty, as we discussed on my own thread, but it works! My only other upgrade was a BL2 that I did 5 years ago. I have a lot of trouble handling small parts and wiring, and next time, I will follow some advice from others. The only other upgrade is I added a much better looking crew of two to replace the original wimpy looking engineer.
So, what's up next?
1. I am now physically able to continue the removable scenic section with the Idaho Hotel that will overlook the town across the tracks.
2. Last week, I bought a simple kit for a very long through girder bridge to replace the three short ones on the lower bridge. I need to do a little work on the alignment in the down position on that bridge as well. The long girders will look more like the bridge at the bottom of the real Blackwater Canyon.
But first, I need to clean up the makeshift workbench from electronics work before tackling either project.
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@Mark Boyce posted:Here it is on the rails.
Yesterday I finished a PS3 upgrade on a 1995 Premier ProtoSound Western Maryland F3. The innards aren't pretty, as we discussed on my own thread, but it works!
So, what's up next?
1. I am now physically able to continue the removable scenic section with the Idaho Hotel that will overlook the town across the tracks.
2. Last week, I bought a simple kit for a very long through girder bridge to replace the three short ones on the lower bridge. I need to do a little work on the alignment in the down position on that bridge as well. The long girders will look more like the bridge at the bottom of the real Blackwater Canyon.
But first, I need to clean up the makeshift workbench from electronics work before tackling either project.
The engine looks good Mark. So what was the final outcome for the markers?
A runby video seems in order too.....
Thank you, Bob! I really don't understand MTH's setup on the markers. The common for both front and back go to the purple wire spliced to a whole bunch of commons. That makes sense. The other side of each pair are spliced to a blue wire going to one pin out. 
So when I had both front and back pair plugged in, they all (2 red and 2 green) were off in forward and on in reverse. Splicing it to the unused beacon wire was very bright, so needed a resistor. Then I got thinking, paired up with the yet to be delivered brand new F3, this one will always be the rear engine running in reverse. It's markers wouldn't be on and green except when backing in to pick up cars. I decided to plug in the red LEDs and let them be on when the train is running. So for now, that is the way it is. I could always open it up and substitute the green ones if I want to.
You are most correct. A runby video is needed. I'll get on that.
Mark,
You are an incredible modeler! I have at least 3-4 PS1 locos to convert. They are early 1990’s Railking and are certainly not scale. But scale or not, there’s a certain appeal to a UP Big Boy pulling a string of Armour Yellow coaches ( which are RK, too). I’ve also got several scale size locos like the Lionel NYC Mohawk but I suspect that I’ll have to replace the Pul-Mor motor with a can, if I am to get the performance I’d like.
and speaking of conversions, I wonder whether we will ever really see the new TIU or Lionel’s 3, both of which are years overdue. Since all of my TMCC and DCS equipment are first generation, I’m really wondering how we will all run our layouts over the next ten years if our main suppliers can’t get chips or master the technology. And if these products do get made, there’s always the maxim about buying Rlease 1 technology.
Time will tell.
Rubin
Nice work on the WM F3 - I'll have to find some pics of my A-B-A set this weekend to compare.
Thank you, Rubin, Richie!
Here's a video runby, Bob.
Rubin, I think I am more of a Jack-of-all trades master-of-none. That's the way it was at work. I seemed to find my way into catch-all departments. Come to think of it, maybe that is what makes a good modeler in this multi-faceted hobby.
The thing about upgrading the older engines, you have to decide if you like the engine enough to upgrade electronics, Pul-mor motors, etc.
Richie, it would be nice to compare wit your ABA
Mark, thank you for the video, it was outstanding! The F3 is sharp, and now it has the inners to match the look. Well done. The run by video is excellent, thank you.
Andy
Looks and sounds great Mark. The markers work the way they should too.
well done and on to the next project!
Bob
Very nice job, Mark! Looks and sounds great. Nice looking engine.
Art
Thank you, Andy, Bob, Art!!
Yes, I am happy with it. As an aside, I always knew my sound files didn't take on the BL2 upgrade I did 5 years ago. After finishing the F3, I was able to update the sound files on the BL2 and get rid of the hideous blaring horn that keeps pulsating on startup!!
I was looking at the bridge project after last night, and decided I could live with it as is for now. I want to get started on some scenery, so I'll be working on the swing up scenery section that will be mainly occupied by Myles' @Trainman2001 Idaho Hotel. It deserves something better to sit on than bare Masonite!!
Mark, excellent sounding engine and looks just as good. I have no idea when I read about the internal electronics of these locomotives; ie. ps1,2,3 etc. I do appreciate the knowledge and try to understand what I read and see.
Gene
I Look forward to seeing your next project Mark.
Andy
Thank you, Gene, Andy!
Gene, MTH released PS1, more properly named ProtoSound in the early to mid '90s. I was modeling in HO at the time, so I wasn't paying attention. It gave the operator much better sound, smoke, and some other features than what was out before. It was still conventional control if you will, because you had to vary train speed, direction, horn, from the transformer. So the operator was tied to the transformer to make changes. It was rather clunky to set up different options.
I think it was around 2000, MTH released PS2, which the operator was able to use a hand held remote that communicated to the engine through the TIU. The operator could set the voltage and then walk around with the train and operate multiple trains through the remote. PS3 is similar to PS2, but has more features that I don't have any engines that really make use of the features. So, if you like operating with the remote, upgrading from PS1 ProtoSound to PS3 is a big deal.
Andy, Ask and ye shall receive.
Here are some photographs of my planned lift-up scenery. This is the way I design in 3 dimensions. Much easier than trying to draw it. I think it will work.
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Hi Mark, Looks like you have been really busy while I have been away! You did a great job on the engine upgrade!
I am glad your back is getting better and your able to get back to scenery work on your lift up section! From the pictures it looks like a great idea and should work just fine!
I will try to check in more often, just been really busy around here!
@Mark Boyce posted:Thank you, Gene, Andy!
Gene, MTH released PS1, more properly named ProtoSound in the early to mid '90s. I was modeling in HO at the time, so I wasn't paying attention. It gave the operator much better sound, smoke, and some other features than what was out before. It was still conventional control if you will, because you had to vary train speed, direction, horn, from the transformer. So the operator was tied to the transformer to make changes. It was rather clunky to set up different options.
I think it was around 2000, MTH released PS2, which the operator was able to use a hand held remote that communicated to the engine through the TIU. The operator could set the voltage and then walk around with the train and operate multiple trains through the remote. PS3 is similar to PS2, but has more features that I don't have any engines that really make use of the features. So, if you like operating with the remote, upgrading from PS1 ProtoSound to PS3 is a big deal.
Mark, thanks for the quick lesson. The lift-up looks like it should serve the purpose you need.
Gene
Thank you, Mike and Gene!!
Mike, I knew you were tied up in knots this summer, but also knew you would be checking back in! I'm glad to hear from you again!
Gene, You're welcome! I left HO conventional running only back in 2012 when I bought my first MTH train set. I was very impressed with the sound and lighting capabilities, but it took quite a while to learn about the DCS system and Lionel's TMCC and Legacy. So, I am quite happy to share what I learned, and quite often someone else will pipe in with something I didn't know or often corrections and nuances I overlooked explaining.
Thank you both. I think it will be a simple but effective way to get at the lower level. I'll figure out how to hide the seams and hinge areas with bushes or what not as I go. Oh, keep in mind, I will be lifting off the big hotel, vehicles, and whatever else could be damaged when I do need to gain lower level access.
Mike, thank you about my back! 👍🏻
Great simple design with nothing to go wrong. You never can have too much or too easy of access to your layout. Way to go, Mark! I like it.
Art
@Richie C. posted:Nice work on the WM F3 - I'll have to find some pics of my A-B-A set this weekend to compare.
Not to highjack the thread, but as promised .... the AA set is Lionel Legacy and, if memory serves me right, the B unit is Williams.
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Richie, you aren’t hijacking the thread at all! We wanted to see your Western Maryland ABA set. It looks great! Thank you for sharing the photographs and video!!
The A unit I am getting is to have the Speedletter scheme like all of yours. My upgraded F3 A has the Fireball scheme, so I’ll have an unmatched set. I remember growing up near the B&O and seeing unmatched blue F-units. Really it doesn’t matter.
I like the hinged platform Mark. Will make service below easier. You may consider attaching what you can so it's less to move when you need to access the main level.
Bob
Thanks, Mark - I love the WM "Fireball" paint scheme, but this was my first Legacy diesel set and has always been a great runner. I'm going to have to eventually get around to painting up some WM passenger cars to go with it.
I'm sure the lift-up top will look good once foliage, etc. is added. You may want to consider covering the white legs and side framing with an embossed brick or stone masonry paper.
Thank you, Bob, Richie!
Bob, I agree, I could even fasten the tires of any cars and trucks.
Richie, I have briefly thought of what to cover the edge and legs of the lift-up along with the fascia of the main layout table, but have not really considered anything in particular. Your suggestion is the first I can recall. It is a good idea.
Clamps are gone.
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Mark,
Your post about PS1 brought back memories. I remember being shown one of the then new PS1 locos. in order to access the sounds or cause the coupler to open made me crazy!Taking the throttle up and down and counting the clinks and clanks to get the brakes to squeal was no joy. But I guess that’s how progress is made. And that’s why both Lionel’s and MTH’s new systems are roughly three years late🫤.
Mark, that’s a pretty creative way to access trackage. Looking forward to seeing what you come up with for a scenic element for it.
Rubin, I installed a QSI soundest in a Williams Mike back in the early 90’s. Later they came out with an uncoupler board and coil coupler. Had to have it. What was in there was already a tight fit. Had to reconfigure everything but the speaker to get the added board to fit. First time it fired it was the most amazing thing I had ever seen since I entered the hobby. Thought was. It can’t get any better than this. I wished I had a crystal ball back then. Would probably put off a lot of purchases back then. I knew many guys that had a surplus of Proto 1’s just waiting to build the dream layout. Next thing DCS came along and everyone’s outlook changed.
Thank you, Dave, Rubin!!
I've had trouble keeping up on the Forum the last few days. I have my last sessions of PT this week, and have been taking the 2004 Hyundai Sonata to a couple mechanics. I love that car. I think it has class, but unfortunately PennDOT salt to keep the winter roads safe has claimed another victim. 
However, a good friend just took in on trade a 'Cream Puff' as he called it. So tomorrow we are picking up a "Florida Car", a 2006 Chrysler Sebring with only 83,000 miles. It has class as well and looks years newer than it is.
Rubin and Dave, Yes, the clanks and clunks are really tricky on PS1. Equipment at work at that time was so awkward to setup as well. It is true, we had to go through that to get to where we are today. I see so many great looking engines at train shows, but see they are PS1. I usually walk away, but the Western Maryland F3 AA set found its way home.
Dave, I had actually designed a lift off variety back on Page 93. It was Ben @bluelinec4 at the top of Page 94 who suggested the hinged variety, and I'm sure others would echo his suggestion. It is so much better than the lift off was. I'm already thinking I can rig up something similar for the town section on the other side of the double tracks!
Mark, I like how you design in 3D, makes sense, and allows you to adjust as you go. I like the lift up design. Very convenient.
Andy
Thank you, Andy! I was able to draw isometric drawings from two dimensional drawings in drafting class, but they were always rather easy. I can’t seem to do that for the layout. It’s easier to pull pieces out of the scrap boxes and see what fits together! 😄
Here’s the stationary part of this scene.
I think this will work.
Oh yes; I checked clearance, and there is plenty even though it may not look like it. 😄
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Yes, this will work out great!
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This angle may show of the hotel better.
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@Mark Boyce posted:This angle may show of the hotel better.
I like that angle too Mark. Shows off the covered balcony on the end. Nice spot for railfanning.....
Sorry to hear about the car. New York winters are not kind to them either. Remember undercoating?????
I had a 1983 Hyundai Excel sedan that I bought new for $10,000. I gave to my sister when she went to Pitt. Car went to about 140K miles until the clutch blew and it wasn't worth fixing.
Bob
Thank you, Bob!
Yes, at this angle you see the porches on the side better. It is also a better angle walking into the room. The back of the hotel is rather plain, as isn’t surprising. This lets more details to be seen at each viewing angle.
We had two Elantras, a 2003 and a 2005. I actually bought the newer one for our older daughter after she graduated from college because we thought she was going to work in Ohio. That didn’t pan out, and they sold it last year. We bought the Sebring Thursday.
Forum member Ted Bertinger saw my Facebook post commending our young friend who is the dealer. He told me it is perfect for driving to York. I replied that it has a bigger trunk than the Sonata! 😆
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Looking good Mark. The larger trunk will come in handy for sure.
I do like the covered balcony too. Perfect spot to railfan while sipping a cocktail.
Andy
Looks pretty good to me… and kind of familiar. I'm so glad it found a nice home!
My 16 year-old Acura TL-Type S continues to be the most trouble free car I've ever owned and at last count it's around 24. It doesn't have 97,000 miles on it, and has not a single component failure or wear out other than scheduled maintenance items. It's had two sets of tires, two sets of brakes and a few batteries. No shocks, struts, exhaust, engine, nothing. The only thing that doesn't work is the AUX plug so I can plug in my iPhone and play tunes. That's it. It's crazy. I detailed it thinking I was going to put it up for sale. As an unusual model with low mileage in excellent shape it's still worth a lot of money. The car came out so good, I'm keeping it.
Sorry to hijack your thread...
Thank you, Andy, Myles!
Andy, that is a great spot for rail fans! I hadn’t thought of it, but I know of hotels and restaurants that make use of their proximity to railroads in their advertising.
Myles, I thought of this location for the hotel last winter when I was reconfiguring the mainline. I hoped it would work, and I think the raised ‘landscape’ above the tracks will show it off well. I’m glad I got it from you and am anxious to be able to show you the finished scene!
You didn’t hijack at all. I thought the story of cars and the comment from Ted was appropriate. Ted’s been after me to go back to York ever since they reopened after Covid. You just carried the story bringing up the great Acura! Is that the car you were driving when you delivered the Idaho Hotel?
Morning Mark I really like the lift up section, what I really like is the idea of attaching things to it, so you don't have to remove them. I did the same thing with some autos but used hot glue, in hindsight I would have rather drilled very small hole and use the wire ties like they use in new car toy packaging.
But as for all the trees and rocks I used hot glue and like how it turned out! As for the angle of the Hotel I am with Bob as I like the second placement angle!
Nice to see you have a good looking new to you car! I hope it last a few more winters for you!
Mike, thank you!
The next issue for the hotel scene will be how to make the scenery fit near the hotel where the lift up section meets the stationary section. The scenic materials will have to be attached right to the Masonite to keep from hitting each other when the lift up is raised. That is probably a good thing because as it stands the base of the Hotel is 52 inches above the floor. When I reach my arm across the Masonite there is about an inch to spare under my arm pit. The peak of the hotel roof is right at my chin.
Even though the car has very little rust and has averaged 5000 miles driven per year, the Book value is so low, it wouldn’t take much of an accident to total it. Of course we didn’t pay much for it. I’ve been averaging a little less than 4000 miles per year since retiring.
And now for something completely different…
The Idaho Hotel was used to Sculptamold at it’s old home. Take a look at those homemade shaker bottles. Gerber! Our daughters are both in their 30s now! No, the bag of Sculptamold isn’t 30; it’s fairly new!
I had better move some rolling stock and cover the track before starting this project! 😄
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I like the second positioning of the hotel for the reason Bob mentioned. A great balcony to railran from. It’s angled perfectly to view the action on the rails below it.
Mark, is the hotel staying stationary on the layout or is it part of the lift up ? You could cut an angled line near the edge of the footprint of it and use hedges or shrubs to hide the seem of the lift up section.
Thank you, Dave!
To get that viewing angle the hotel has to straddle the seam between the lift-up and the stationary section. I actually briefly thought if I was slick enough, which I’m not, the lift-up could pivot with the narrow section going down as the rest lifts up. I wouldn’t be able to lift high enough before the part going down hits the lower level.
That said, here are a couple close ups of what I mean.
To have it not straddle the seam, it would have to set this way.
The front faces the main operating area, but the side balcony can’t be seen well.
Here is what it looks like when entering the room.
I’m going to leave it this way today, and see what I think. 🤔 🤷♂️
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That should still work out for train viewing with that long second-story porch.
I know that you must have stated (way back in this thread) who made the hotel (I am to lazy to search it out!), so I ask now.
Dave, I'm thinking you are right. I am thankful for your feedback. It is more what looks best to me all around.
Don't say you're lazy. The pages rack up fast, as I was looking for something just a week ago. I'm happy to repeat, than to have someone frustrated looking it up. The hotel was kit built by Myles @Trainman2001.
Mark, if you did want to go with the hotel like this.
Could you cut the rectangular lift up section at an angle to follow the walkway. It looks like it would involve moving one hinge in a bit. This would leave the building in a fixed position and not part of the lift up. Not sure as to how much area you need to access on the under side.
Either position looks good. I think you have to consider the big picture from both positions of the hotel and envision what you want to do with the rest of it scenery or structure wise. I’ve got a thing for gas stations. There’s some great looking kits out there and enough room for one and a roadway if your thinking of another structure.
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@Mark Boyce posted:Thank you, Dave!
To get that viewing angle the hotel has to straddle the seam between the lift-up and the stationary section. I actually briefly thought if I was slick enough, which I’m not, the lift-up could pivot with the narrow section going down as the rest lifts up. I wouldn’t be able to lift high enough before the part going down hits the lower level.
That said, here are a couple close ups of what I mean.
To have it not straddle the seam, it would have to set this way.
The front faces the main operating area, but the side balcony can’t be seen well.
Here is what it looks like when entering the room.
I’m going to leave it this way today, and see what I think. 🤔 🤷♂️
It looks fine like this Mark. You still get a visual of a balcony on the side. If needed, you could always put a small led light on the ceiling of the balcony to highlight its appearance.
Gene
I don't think it's mandatory for the hotel to be permanently mounted to the lift-out section. That way it could just be lifted out of place when you need to utilize the lift-up. If lighting is an issue, you can use pull-apart connectors. This would allow you to place the hotel at the angle and sight-line you want.
Not sure if it's doable, but can you hinge the lift-out section from the other side (where the legs are) so it tilts the other way ? This could also allow you to place the hotel at the angle and sight-line you want and have it permanently mounted to the lift-out.
Thank you, Dave, Gene, Richie!
Actually, all along I was planning to lift the hotel off the layout anytime the lift-up is raised. That would entail a plug for wiring to lights. I am planning to make all the buildings removable with plugs for lighting. I really wasn't clear that my only concern with the hotel straddling the seam between the lift-up and stationary support was that it may be difficult to blend in the scenery right here to not show the gap.
I got thinking about the old rolls of stiff paper with green sawdust-like material stuck on that are sold for basic layouts. Something like that could be glued down and slit for a very thin seam on a mowed lawn or dirt driveway. As I was typing, I thought of trimmed bushes along the front railing to conceal the seam at the foundation of the building. Keeping this in mind, I think I like this alignment best.
Dave, I have given some thought to the rest of that scene. An old gas station is a good idea. I had a Woodland Scenics service station which after many years, I decided to sell because it takes up a lot of room. I have seen some neat kits of smaller stations are available. I do have a small produce stand and was thinking of an outbuilding or two. I thought I would have a vehicle or two out front with main parking implied to be out back. My initial concept of the hotel was in keeping with the Shady Rest Hotel up the bank from the tracks on Petticoat Junction.
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Mark, I was thinking of a small wooden gas station for a rural look to match the hotel. I think the ones I saw were from Bars Mills.
Not having done this but I have used pieces of then in a few areas. Martin Wellburg scenic sheets are available from Scenic Express. I think they still have some in stock. They come well layered with static grass, bushes and other details. There’s a few to choose from. Pricey but what isn’t in this hobby for about an 8x10 sheet. They are made on a sheet of vinyl and seem pretty durable and it does flex and contour to different shapes. I’m wondering if you used one near the hotel where the seam is. If you glued it down but made sure there was no glue on either side of the seam. It’s very flexible and would eliminate a visible seam.
I found a leftover piece to give an view of it.
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Thank you, Dave!
Bars Mill has Bud Smily’s Texaco and Shady Grove Texaco. I like the Bud Smily’s better. That’s a great idea. It fits the 1950 rural look perfectly.
That Martin Wellberg scenic sheet is neat. That’s a great idea of how to use it. Thank you.
Mark, in addition to Dave's thoughts (which I think will work) maybe a line of trees or shrubs along the seam of the drop down. The trees would serve as a view block of sorts. I like the final position of the hotel. And you can make adjustments if you don't like it.
Andy
Thank you Andy! I took Dave's advice and ordered a Martin Wellburg scenic sheet. Dave, you were right, there weren't many in stock. I got Prairie Floor Spring. I am going to wait for it to arrive and see how it works out and how to blend in other scenery on the lift up and a rock cut on the stationary part. Trees are a good idea. Right now I have been running trains, and corrected one spot that was causing occasional derailments. Actually, I have been able to get some yard work done, so I haven't been in the train room a lot. Thank you both!
Hi Mark, I guess I am going to have to check in daily! Dave took my thunder idea! LOL I guess great minds think alike! I just wish I had the skills most of you have, but I am getting better!
Hey Mark if you want I have an extra Menards gas station you can have and maybe repaint to fit. Just an offer!
Thank you, Mike!! Yes, you have to be quick about it on this Forum! You have skills that many of us don't have!
Mike, thank you for the offer. Is this station that currently resides on the Ceiling Central Railroad the one that you have an extra? I see they have a newer one out with a pump and two service bays.
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Hi Mark, thank you and yes it's the same one!
@Richie C. posted:I don't think it's mandatory for the hotel to be permanently mounted to the lift-out section. That way it could just be lifted out of place when you need to utilize the lift-up. If lighting is an issue, you can use pull-apart connectors. This would allow you to place the hotel at the angle and sight-line you want.
Not sure if it's doable, but can you hinge the lift-out section from the other side (where the legs are) so it tilts the other way ? This could also allow you to place the hotel at the angle and sight-line you want and have it permanently mounted to the lift-out.
@Mark Boyce posted:...Actually, all along I was planning to lift the hotel off the layout anytime the lift-up is raised. That would entail a plug for wiring to lights. I am planning to make all the buildings removable with plugs for lighting. I really wasn't clear that my only concern with the hotel straddling the seam between the lift-up and stationary support was that it may be difficult to blend in the scenery right here to not show the gap...
My 2 cents... Cut a piece of thinner foam board to cover the entire corner, including the seam, but in a size that you can handle. Feather the edges to slope down to the level of the benchwork. and create a scenic base for the building. Semi-permanently attach the building to the foam and lift it off the layout as a unit when you need to raise the hinged section. In other words, don't blend scenery around the gap - just cover it up.
I think the hotel looks great in that corner.
@Mallard4468 posted:My 2 cents... Cut a piece of thinner foam board to cover the entire corner, including the seam, but in a size that you can handle. Feather the edges to slope down to the level of the benchwork. and create a scenic base for the building. Semi-permanently attach the building to the foam and lift it off the layout as a unit when you need to raise the hinged section. In other words, don't blend scenery around the gap - just cover it up.
Thank you Mallard!
I saw this last evening and decided to mull it over because I wasn't quite clear on what you are suggesting. I think you mean that this foam base would be made so that I would first lift the building off, then lift the foam scenic base off before raising the hinged section. The foam scenic base would be one piece that would cover over the seam. If that is what you mean, I like the idea.
@Mark Boyce posted:Thank you Mallard!
I saw this last evening and decided to mull it over because I wasn't quite clear on what you are suggesting. I think you mean that this foam base would be made so that I would first lift the building off, then lift the foam scenic base off before raising the hinged section. The foam scenic base would be one piece that would cover over the seam. If that is what you mean, I like the idea.
Close, and that's one way it could work.
I envisioned it as having the building semi-permanently attached to the piece of foam, perhaps with double-sided tape or hot glue, so that the base and building would be lifted off the layout together as one unit, but could be separated from each other if necessary. Done this way, it would be a bit more cumbersome to handle, but it would allow you to build up the scenery around the base of the building in order to "plant" it and have the edges transition into the surrounding area. Also, if it's one unit, the space required to set it down would be smaller than if you have to set the building aside first.
Another way to think of it is that you are building a diorama for the building and surrounding plot of land.
If you want further details, email me and I'll do my best to help.
Thank you, Mallard! Now I see what you mean. I would lift it all off at once. I was thinking since the underneath is open to see the small vignette scene below, I could have a two pronged plug that easily makes and breaks contact so there are no loose wires or plugs to worry about. Yes, it would be a diorama!
Mark- when I did my Ameritown building, I built up the area around the building and made a base for it to sit on. I can lift the building off (which I've done to fix lights) without disturbing the ground cover. I used 1/2" strips for the base.
I like the diorama idea too....did my corner tunnel like that.
Bob
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Thank you, Bob! I remember those scenes, but forgot about the methods you used for removing!!
Railfanning views from the hotel.
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Outstanding view Mark!
Andy
Thank you, Andy! I think it will work out nicely.
Here is a video of a train traversing both levels taken from the opposite end of the two bridges. The engine is an MTH Premier PS2 Russian Decapod. The caboose is from MTH and the 2-bay hoppers are MTH and Lionel.
Last evening, I took a video of the boxcar train that is now broken up in the South Yard and the MTH Premier PS2 B&O Mikado and caboose are on the yard lead. I did not have the advantage of natural light coming in the sliding glass door, so it is too dark in the foreground. I need to install a set of lights there and at the far end of the room under the shelves.
Nice Mark! I love the 2-track bridge. I'm very impressed with what you have stuffed into 11'x11'. I do not have a great deal more than that, depending on room furniture and what have you. What brand of track is that? I may try to re-build using that once I get the house reno done. Me thinks I sent too much money on motive power in times past. I need to reprioritize and focus more on roadbed and scenery.....if I can swing it!
Bob
Mark, very nice track layout, especially the dual level bridges! I see you found a home for the new fire house.
Gene
Nice run Mark. That decapod had no trouble with the grades. Looking good!
Bob
Mark, I am with the guys as you have a great running engines and such smooth track! As for the Hotel I love the view, I think with a parking lot with a little grass area between the edge and the parking love for folks to sit and watch the trains go by! I will be keeping an eye out for all your updates!
Thank you, Bob, Gene, Bob, Mike!
@endless tracks Bob, the track is GarGraves and the switches are Ross Custom Switches. Yes, I must have sold a half dozen engines over a couple years mostly to pay for the track and switches. I have about 12 engines to run on the layout, so that’s more than enough! 😃
@RSJB18 Bob, yes all the engines can pull that many and a few more up the grades. That is except the passenger trains. Those cars are heavy and I have a matching vista dome on the way.
Gene, that is a temporary location for the engine house, though near the engine facility and station isn’t a bad idea. My intention for the spot it is on now is for parking for a few cars and trucks at the station. After the hotel lift up is well on its way, I intend to build a couple lift ups or lift outs for over the South Yard and put a small town there, including the fire house.
Mike, your ideas for the hotel scenery sound great!! Why not gain a few guests who are train watchers! 👍🏻
Thank you for the comments!
Thanks Mark. I thought it may have been Gargraves. I think my local guy can order it in, but then I'll need a real plan. I really need to make some decisions once I start to rebuild here. As for motive power, I guess I have around 30 locos and I have one more on preorder. Easy to get hooked!! Buying a SAAB Viggin convertible in May to buzz around in probably would have bought a lot of track....priorities, ya know!
Wow!! Mark, you just reached 100 pages of posts!! What an accomplishment. A wealth of knowledge for those who are just starting out in the hobby, and for those who have been in the hobby for decades. Congratulations.
Great progress on the new lift up section, and I thoroughly enjoyed the layout tour video.
Looking forward to the next 100 pages…
@Mark Boyce posted:Thank you, Bob! I remember those scenes, but forgot about the methods you used for removing!!
Railfanning views from the hotel.
Does the hotel charge a premium for rooms that have a trackside view?
They should charge more!
Thanks for the video Mark, you have some great runs. The engine pulls up the grade with no issue. That’s the resu;t of good planning, well done.
Andy
Thank you, Bob, Edward, Mallard, Andy!
Bob, I hope you like the Saab! It sounds like a cool ride. Yes, a car definitely hits the budget! I didn't want to have to replace the 20-year old Hyundai last month, but sometimes you have to.
Mallard and Andy, yes those rooms do go for a premium price!
Thank you everyone on the observations on the train running.
I started this thread on January 8, 2017 looking for some assistance on designing a layout that would fit some of my hopes in a relatively small space for O gauge. I wondered how well the request would be received. In the last 6 years and 9 months I have been totally overwhelmed that there would be this much interest! Forum members have contributed track plans, suggestions, constructive criticisms, ideas, questions, and praises on what turned out to be 4 different plans that I started building, but realized didn't suit my hopes. This current layout, which I am happy with is the culmination of so many forum members contributions! Though I am building the layout by myself, I could not have hoped to have achieved what I have without all of you!!
I noticed that we had reached 100 pages with Mike's response, but just gave him a 'Like' at the time. @Edward G wrote it so well when he put the observation into writing.
@Edward G posted:Wow!! Mark, you just reached 100 pages of posts!! What an accomplishment. A wealth of knowledge for those who are just starting out in the hobby, and for those who have been in the hobby for decades. Congratulations.
Looking forward to the next 100 pages…
There is a wealth of knowledge, and it has been a group effort. I had modeled in HO and N scales since I was about 12, but O gauge 3-rail along with DCS, TMCC, Legacy was still fairly new to me. Also, trying to fit a fun layout into a small space in a scale that takes up much more real estate that HO was a real challenge. All of you have helped!!
100 PAGES! WHOO_HOO!!!!!
I've been here from the beginning. Happy to think I've helped along the way. Looking forward to the next 100 pages too!
Congrats Mark! Your perseverance should be commended.
Bob
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Mark,
Congrats on all your accomplishments, both here on the the Forum and right in front of you at home on your layout. I had noticed this morning when going back to follow one of your threads that it was on page 99.....and I thought WOW!!!
I saw a pic of your new car (or your old one....not sure) and it spawned the SAAB comment. It's 20 years old, too, but on purpose. Less GM influence in those older ones, if you know what I mean.
I hope you're going for 200 pages, since I'm just getting to know folks here and you're one I follow!
Bob
Look’n pretty good Mark. Can’t wait you get to the “sloppy” stuff, I.e., ballasting the beast and and start playing with plaster. Enough playing with trains. Time to get down to business.
Thank you, Bob @RSJB18, Bob @endless tracks, Myles!!!
Yes indeed, Bob RSJB18 I do remember you have been here from the beginning. What a ride it has been; more like a roller coaster than a train ride!! It seems there is growing interest in another 100 pages! Well, I certainly would like to be here discussing the layout progress for that long too! You have offered so many good ideas!
Bob endless tracks, I'm glad you have joined in the conversation and hope you can stay with us that long as well. I follow a lot of great folks here. One thing nice all you have to do is pull up their profile and click on the 'bell' to follow and see all new topics the particular member posts. Looking at my list, I see a few folks who have passed away.
Yes, the photographs are of the 2006 Chrysler Sebring I bought from a young friend at a local dealership. After having 2 cars that I have run until they rusted away, I bought something "new" Since Carfax proved it had been serviced in Florida all but the first 3 years, that explains it's great shape. I hope you run the 20-year old SAAB a long time!
Myles, you are right about getting to business on the sloppy stuff! Following your lengthy topic for years, I have picked up more tips than I can remember about the sloppy stuff and structure building. Thank you for all the detailed explanations!! I sure didn't expect it to take almost 7 years to get this far, but here we are and all is well!!
Hi Mark,
Congrats on hitting the 100 page mark! Though I haven't been here since the beginning, I've enjoyed seeing the progress on your layout. Thanks for sharing this journey with us. Looking forward to seeing where you go from here.
John
Thank you, John! I certainly appreciate you following along!!
Great job Mark. Thanks for 100 pages of interesting train information and for always being willing to help.
Thank you, Bill! Speaking of folks always willing to help; you certainly helped me a lot!! Thank you!!
I purchased a small piece of Styrofoam yesterday at Lowe's. I'll try out the suggestion of lifting it off, building and all, to avoid the seam in the scenery between the stationary layout and the lift up for access to tracks below. I didn't want to buy a whole sheet, and every piece I already have are of odd shapes that won't work. I don't think I can handle a section as long as the whole lift up. If I keep the weight of the scenery down, I could set it down on the bridge top if nothing else. Of course I need to cut the corner out in a curve to follow the track. It's just an experiment for now to see how it works out.
The aisle between the layout and the wall is 28 inches and the door opening is 27-1/2 inches. There isn't a lot of wiggle room.
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Thanks Mark! The 20 YO SAAB only has 82K on it. I park it next to my 19YO Tundra with 368K on it!!
I'm curious about the use of styrofoam in/on layouts. I haven't tried it yet. I suppose spray can foam may make some interesting moguls to paint or stick brush or trees in. Next layout is when I'll be trying out different things. My previous layout was all run on soft pine boards, (tongue and groove rough saw siding) which I liked a liked because it's light weight, deadens sound a bit, easy to work and you easily put a screw in it anywhere. I tried 3/4" plywood and it was miserable.
Bob, The 17 (almost 18) year old Sebring has 84,000.
I have used both extruded Styrofoam and the spray can insulation foam in the past, both with success. I built a lift off scenery module on my N-scale layout from the late '80s to early '90s entirely of foam. I had an end turn-back loop of about 30" x30" made of extruded Styrofoam for the base, then I made a form around it for the sides and sprayed the foam on it. I did a little manicuring of the tops of the moguls and put an extensive farm scene on it. It was easy to lift off and set on the floor to get to the track underneath. Of course, I had a little more floor space and I was a lot more limber then. For other landforms on that layout and an HO layout later, I carved extruded Styrofoam and covered it with latex paint and ground foam. I also draped plaster soaked towels over the more roughly carved foam as well. For me, all of these methods beat the old web of cardboard strips or chicken wire covered with plaster soaked grocery bags I read about doing when I was a teenager.
The tongue and groove soft pine sounds like that would be nice to work with. I used about anything I could get my hands on building this layout. Some was easy, and some didn't work so well, but I kept the cost down.
Congratulations on achieving a remarkable following on your layout build. It's easy to see why it has been so popular as I too am drawn to see your latest progress. Thanks for sharing it with us all and keep going.
Art
Art, many thanks!!
I am still amazed that so many folks like this thread. I am going to venture a guess that we are working through basic problems the average layout builder faces. I am not showing any great skills here, though folks do seem to like my neat wiring. 😃
Mentioning that, I was just thinking last evening that I have recovered enough to wire the newest DZ1000 switch controllers on the upper level near the two windows. Along with that, I want to arrange the push buttons to at least two local panels with track arrangements shown. Maybe I should continue with the ‘messy stuff’ as Myles called it for a while and tackle the wires this winter. 🤷♂️
If you are anything like me, I feel like I have endured all the phases of construction in order to get to the scenery phase, which I enjoy the most. I'm not claiming to be good at it, but I enjoy doing it. The other thing I enjoy is having friends over to share the layout with. I keep trying to improve my operating sessions so that they are:
- More realistic
- More fun
- Less stressful
All my friends have been patient and tolerant during my learning curve with all this and I truly appreciate that.
Art
Hi mark, My trains are on the wall just like yours with KV standards & brackets, but my shelves are 4' 1/4" plate glass.
@Mark Boyce posted:I purchased a small piece of Styrofoam yesterday at Lowe's. I'll try out the suggestion of lifting it off, building and all, to avoid the seam in the scenery between the stationary layout and the lift up for access to tracks below. I didn't want to buy a whole sheet, and every piece I already have are of odd shapes that won't work. I don't think I can handle a section as long as the whole lift up. If I keep the weight of the scenery down, I could set it down on the bridge top if nothing else. Of course I need to cut the corner out in a curve to follow the track. It's just an experiment for now to see how it works out.
The aisle between the layout and the wall is 28 inches and the door opening is 27-1/2 inches. There isn't a lot of wiggle room.
I'm thinking that foam might be too thick to work with the rest of the scenery and however you plan to finish off the lift-out.
Perhaps 1/4" thick might be easier to incorporate with the rest of the scene - maybe even a simple styrene plastic sheet.
Alternatively, if the hotel is structurally sound enough, you could simply leave it alone and lift it off by the roof when necessary (I'm assuming you will use a simple electrical connector to disconnect any lighting wires from underneath).
Thank you, Art, Eddie, Richie!
Art, I'm sure you have a great bunch of friends who look forward to operating with the signal system in place, but also realize there is a lot involved to getting it working correctly and looking good!
Eddie, the glass shelves sound great! What a classy way to display trains.
Richie, yes you have a good point. I looked for 1/4", and all they had was some kind of wimpy folding stuff. Actually, there wasn't much insulation board of any kind. Perhaps it's a delivery problem like we are still seeing in the grocery stores in our area. Anyway, as you guessed, the hotel is as solid as a rock. Myles built it well using the correct glues for the application. He glued the roof on, so it is quite solid lifting it under the eaves. In fact, that may be the best thing to do for moving it off the layout. It's not like it's an everyday thing. I have the Woodland Scenics field mat, I'm thinking of just building the scenery right on the Masonite and see how well it looks disguising the seam. If I don't like it, then I can put something over it and consider it a practice session.
I have a little side project to do for the local Model Train Club of Zelienople, building up a little display of the B&O caboose in front of the Mars, Pennsylvania former B&O station owned by the Mars Area Historical Society on their modular layout. Since I have a center cupola B&O caboose and grew up 2 miles from Mars, I volunteered for the project.
Here's the basic project.
The real thing.
In front of the restored station. The station would be a great scratch build project!!
All photographs were taken by me on September 27, 2023
Attachments
Mark, congratulations on 100 pages. It’s been a fun and interesting ride. Like Bob, I look forward to 100 more. If you feel the styrofoam is too thick, I’d suggest 1/2” Homasote. I’ve used it all over the decking on my layout. It’s rigid and lightweight. I’ve painted mine an earth brown, then used my ground cover as needed. I like the new project too.
Andy
Mark you could use 1/4" plywood for the lift off
Thank you, Andy, Jeff!!
Andy, Homasote is a great idea, but I used up the rest of mine for the roadbed supporting the track on my revision last winter. It seems to be hard to find around here, and I don't really want to buy a sheet of it anyway.
Jeff, I agree, 1/4" plywood would work as well. I have some of that.
Thank you for all ideas!!! I'm going to see how easy or hard it is to manage a simulation using a cardboard box on a piece of foam or plywood while I work on the caboose project. Then I'll know if I want to lift off a whole section or just the building alone. One problem to solve with whatever lift off is to provide handholds to get it off the layout.
Mark, Jeff’s idea is a good one, especially if you have the material on hand. As far as the handholds, make them a natural part of the scene, but attach them securely so you can use them. Maybe a small pair of sheds or other small structure. Possibly lampposts or hydrants, etc.
Andy
Mark 1/4 ply will warp over time - been there done that. At best it cups up or down - and that was oak, cherry and maple cabinet grade plys. Maybe if you seal both sides and all the edges really well it may stay stable. Moisture gets in one side more than the other creating cupping. Or you could add bracing to help resist cupping. Jeff
@ScoutingDad posted:Mark 1/4 ply will warp over time - been there done that. At best it cups up or down - and that was oak, cherry and maple cabinet grade plys. Maybe if you seal both sides and all the edges really well it may stay stable. Moisture gets in one side more than the other creating cupping. Or you could add bracing to help resist cupping. Jeff
I'd just go with better quality 1/2" plywood. I know now that better quality wood really runs up the cost. When I did my purchasing in 2019, the 1/2" Baltic birch 11 ply plywood was only about 20% more a sq/ft than 5 ply 1/2" plywood, my 5x5 sheets were less than $24/ea. It's come down to about $50-$55 now. Of course, plywood is a lot more expensive as well!
Timing is everything.
Don't know if this has been asked before Mark, but....do you have a spot in mind to put the lift out when you have to remove it? Hate to see you standing there with no place to go.
Mark, Jeff’s point is a good one. I have 1/4” pre finished birch ply. It hasn’t warped in years. Or as Jeff mentioned, seal it on all sides with some poly.
Andy
Put the piece of 1/4" down there and let it sit for a week if it doesnt cup it probably wouldnt ever
Thank you, Andy, Jeff, John, Bob, Ohio Jeff!!
Thank you everyone for all the great replies! Here is the one that hits the nail on the head!
@RSJB18 posted:Don't know if this has been asked before Mark, but....do you have a spot in mind to put the lift out when you have to remove it? Hate to see you standing there with no place to go.
I think we have come full circle since I first built a lift off module with legs on it with the intent of carrying it to the next room and setting it on the floor. The hinged lift-up makes that unnecessary, but I was concerned about how to scenic the seam where the hinges are.
Bob is right. When I was contemplating the Styrofoam, I thought it wouldn't mar the surface of the double track truss bridge if I set the foam on top. The only alternative is to carry it through the narrow doorway and set it where? On the floor? We were discussing how I could set up a small workbench in the general area where our daughter's piano was. Of course I would have to clear off a good portion of it to set down a scenery module, but it wouldn't be so bad to make room for the hotel alone. I think I can hid the seam with shrubs right in front of the hotel porch and some of the Martin Wellburg scenic mat away from the hotel. I will just have an area where a road approaching the hotel may cross. I was thinking a dirt road, but maybe the seam would be less conspicuous with a gravel road. Of course, I could have the access road come in from the other direction off the front of the layout. The seam behind the hotel doesn't matter since it is a short distance to the backdrop and will be in shadows.
This has been a great discussion and there are tips to be remembered on types of plywood, sealant, extruded Styrofoam, and where d you put something big you lift off the layout!
Hi Mark, Happy 100th page anniversary! I am sorry I am late to comment but life has been busy.
I am just wondering how often you see yourself lifting the hinged section. If it isn't that often you could always just build a pivot poll for it and swing it into the walkway while working on something or fixing a derailment. I don't see that happening with the wonderful track work you have done, but it is just a thought!
I like your idea of waiting on the wiring till winter, but then again if I could get away with it I would wait till someone else came and did mine! LOL
The new project looks like a fun little one, plus it should be easier on the body then wiring! LOL
Thank you, Mike.
I don’t anticipate needing access often, but there is one switch under there, though it is near the side. I can reach in for a simple car derailment, but you never know. Swinging a section out would be okay if it wasn’t for the wall in the way.
Leaving the wiring for someone else is a great idea! 😄 But who is that someone? 😆
Thank you for your idea!
@Mark Boyce posted:Thank you, Mike.
I don’t anticipate needing access often, but there is one switch under there, though it is near the side. I can reach in for a simple car derailment, but you never know. Swinging a section out would be okay if it wasn’t for the wall in the way.
Leaving the wiring for someone else is a great idea! 😄 But who is that someone? 😆
Thank you for your idea!
Hi Mark I understand the swing out problem, and as for the someone else all I can say you wouldn't want me! LOL
@Mark Boyce posted:Leaving the wiring for someone else is a great idea! 😄 But who is that someone? 😆
Thank you for your idea!
Did someone say wiring....😉😉😉
@mike g. posted:Hi Mark I understand the swing out problem, and as for the someone else all I can say you wouldn't want me! LOL
😄😄 Mike, I think you wouldn’t want me doing your carpentry either. 😄😄
@gunrunnerjohn posted:I'd just go with better quality 1/2" plywood. I know now that better quality wood really runs up the cost. When I did my purchasing in 2019, the 1/2" Baltic birch 11 ply plywood was only about 20% more a sq/ft than 5 ply 1/2" plywood, my 5x5 sheets were less than $24/ea. It's come down to about $50-$55 now. Of course, plywood is a lot more expensive as well!
Timing is everything.
Mark,
what about MDF? I’ve not used it( yet) but I believe it will stay stable over time compared to plywood.
Rubin
