Rubin, I agree with you about early N scale. I had HO trains back in the 60’s early ‘70s. I got N scale starting in the early ‘80s. The steam engines were the worst. I am amazed I scratch built buildings in N scale, but I still have them as proof. I wish you well on a new layout in a new home.
John, good point; I never posted the locations of the uncouplers. I’ll have to do that. I really don’t have many sidings so there aren’t many.
Mark, I'm enjoying our exchanges.
You are so right about the steam. I remember sending an MRC Nickel Plate Berkshire into a tunnel only to have it come out minus all the valve gear, which had simply fallen off! And those couplers !?!##!
I've also have done HO and have about a dozen brass engines, over a hundred Athearn, MDC, AHM and other cars, many new in the box and a whole raft of Campbell, FSM and other kits, which keep thinking about selling.
But back to O gauge. I'm only 5'7 and I've always built my layouts at 40" height. Tony Koester in MR recently suggested that 48 " inches would be better for under the layout access. What have you done?
Mark, it’s a lot of prep work, but I think you’ll agree it will be worth it when you’re finished. I look forward to seeing all of your hard work pay off.
Andy
Thank you, Rubin and Andy!
Rubin, I’m always glad to talk to someone who has had experience with smaller scales. You do still have a lot of HO. I sold almost my HO and N scale items and used the money towards our two daughters’ tuition; though it didn’t go very far. 😄 My layout top is 44” high, and the higher bridge is 50” high. I’m 4 inches taller than you, and this height works well for me. I know Tony Koester recommends high layouts, and would like it higher when I’m underneath it, but I don’t want to build it so high I can’t reach the back of the layout. Tony can build a mainline a mile long and have narrow shelves. I can’t in an 11x11 room. 😄
Andy, it does take some time to get it built and working right. I guess I’m blessed that I don’t have 2 or 3 times the space, or more. 😉
Mark, you are right! Bigger is a blessing and a curse. But I also look at it this way, it’ll take me longer to “finish” the layout, which of course it never is…
Andy
Andy, you are right. I moved too many times and even when I setup modules I had moved from the previous house I never got as far as I wanted. So far we are good to go on this layout in this house.
After working on Plan D of The Blackwater Canyon Line for 2 years, I have declared heavy construction and wiring are done. I moved a bunch of tools and materials to the garage to make room for scenery and structure building. Granted, there will be times when I need to drag some of that out to wire lights etc.
I do want to mention a few items before we close this phase. I never got back on where I placed the uncoupling ramps. I have indicated where with red arrows. The long siding to the left is where I plan to put engines and cars on and off the track. The siding in the lower right will have two buildings, so I put in two uncoupling ramps. I considered putting them in the yard underneath the wye and enginehouse area. Those tracks are in blue in the upper right. The upper level is removable, but for the sake of good track integrity, I laid the track and switches right over the seam in the table top. I had such a time getting track to match up with my lift up bridges, I copped out on making the enginehouse area easily removable. If I find I have to have uncoupling ramps there, I'll remove the track above, so I can get into the lower space.
As I mentioned when I put in the first push button, these are temporarily mounted until I put a fascia on.
Besides checking out all the DZ1000 switch machines via the AIUs, I also checked out them with the pushbuttons. I labeled all my DZ1000 pushbuttons with the Dymo labeler. Yes, it is the old fashioned kind that wears out your hand. The address on the literature in the box has a postal code instead of a Zip code. That dates it to early or mid '60s. I brought it home when cleaning out my dad's things.
I did get back to my Walthers HO substation kit. One thing I learned from this kit is that I have trouble handling very small parts, and that is one reason I switched from HO to O gauge. I can see everything fine; fine enough that I am disappointed with how it is turning out. Even with spray accelerator, I can't keep the small insulators straight. I just set the main components in a back corner for now and will turn my attention to other things.
I want to build my Carolina Craftsman Thomas West Virginia Station, but need some practice on laser cut kits first. I have a couple easier ones I will work on. I also want to get some scenery built as well. These photographs show the 'canyon' area I want to do. That will also use up my left over Styrofoam so I have more space under the layout for structures and scenery building things.
I know someone will ask about the 4 heavyweight cars in the first photograph. They are actually a beautiful New York Central set I bought from Chris A to be pulled by my K-Line Hudson that is at Pat's Harmonyards awaiting its turn for an upgrade. See, I do have some other interests besides Western Maryland!! Thank you for taking a look.
Looks good Mark. Can't wait to see what's next.
Bob
Great work Mark! What will you work on next?
Never too soon to start thinking about expansion ! 
Thank you Bob, John, Richie!
I got out a TW Trainworx scale house kit that I bought at York in 2017 or ‘18. I started it a couple years ago, punching out and sanding smooth all the rough spots where the parts were attached to the main board. It’s about as simple a laser cut building as you can find. Next is an Altoona Branchline Station. Then I should be ready for the Thomas, WV Station which is more involved.
I started forming some foam for the canyon before my surgery, so I’ll continue that. I have some scenicing materials, but it’s been so long I need to take inventory.
Last evening, I maneuvered 3 steam engines around the engine house eye and passing siding so another one could pull a train. Everything went well, with the Russian Decapod taking over the train and the switcher is in the engine house. I was pleased.
Richie, I would like to have another track , but the only way to expand is to go up!
Mark you are continuing to make excellent progress. Heavy construction ands wiring completed is quite a milestone to achieve.
Good luck with the kit construction. Back in the day before we started on the train room, we built about one kit a month complete with interior/exterior detail and lighting. It was really fun and I am sure that you will enjoy it. Maybe Santa will bring you another kit.
Wow, looks great, Mark!
Congratulations on passing a milestone, Mark. Blackwater Canyon is looking good!
What are your thoughts on ballasting your track? I keep flipping back and forth on whether or not I'll ballast.
Mark keep up the great work you are much further along than I am. It seems I will never be done with wiring Ia m going stir crazy looking at all of it and I think I still have several hundred feet left to pull/run.
Thank you, Bill, Neal, Dan, Rick!!
Bill, you never know what Santa might bring! 
You built some great looking kits. I'm hoping to require some of the skills I had when I was younger.
Dan, I want the ballast to look like it is a well maintained single-track mainline from the '50s, so I am going to wait until I have a scenery base and the rocks and foliage done before ballasting. When I did it the other way around, I had to put tape over the track and ballast to finish the scenery. Inevitably some other scenic materials would get through. For a little used branch line that would be okay. I think I'll ballast in stages as I get sections of scenery 'completed', to save the monotony of doing a well maintained looking ballast job.
Rick, you have a whole lot more wiring to do than I had. Yes, I can see where what you are doing could get old.
Hi Mark, I’ve enjoyed following along with your progress on the layout. You’ve accomplished a fantastic job in your build. Looking forward to seeing the next phase come to life.
John
Thank you very much! I'm always glad to post something; I learn as much or more by doing it than others do.
Mark, congratulation! I know I mentioned it in another thread, but at least now you don't have to get under the layout, maybe except for stuff you have stored under there! Now you can let your mind run wild with scenery! Once again Congratulation!
Looks great, Mark.
Congrats and keep having fun!
Peter
Thank you, Mike and Peter!! All in all I did a fairly good job of staying out from underneath the layout during wiring. For connections near the back of the 30” shelves, I made connections on top of the layout, dropped the wires through holes and then pulled the wires towards the front edge where I have several sets of wire clamps along the way. I then pulled all those along with wires from the front to the wiring panel while sitting upright on my padded roll around stool. The concept really worked out well. For connections near the edge, the layout is high enough I was able to sit on the stool and just duck a bit with reading glasses instead of my normal bifocals. My dad would be proud. Even though he was a very strong man during most of his adult life, he always taught me to use my head not my muscles whenever you can.
Mark, I read your last three progress reports. Well done!!! You've made major progress. And I agree with your decision to defer ballasting until the scenery is in place. I'm doing that as well.
George
Congratulations on your milestone Mark. And thank you for the pictures and summing up what you’ve done to this point. I know how you feel about smaller parts. That is also one of the reasons why I switched to O gauge. Looking forward to seeing your progress.
Andy
Thank you, George and Andy! It is always good hearing from someone who has the same idea as me or has done something similar than me in the past and made similar decisions about changing. Thank you for taking a look!!
Moving right along Mark, you're sure beating me to the scenery. I have to stop expanding and start finishing I guess, you're embarrassing me! 
@Mark Boyce posted:Thank you, George and Andy! It is always good hearing from someone who has the same idea as me or has done something similar than me in the past and made similar decisions about changing. Thank you for taking a look!!
Mark, I too have enjoyed following your progress. Good luck with the scenery. I’m in the midst of packing away my trains and dismantling my layout to make way for our addition and my new, much larger layout room. This project is at least six months to completion. Then I can begin construction and apply some of the lessons I’ve learned from the others and you. Now if I can only find a good track planning tool or program.
And while I have 20x25 to work with, I’m thinking more and more about biting off smaller pieces because the thing does seem rather daunting.
any thoughts, anyone?
Thank you, John, Rubin!
John, yes you have a much larger layout and have taken the time for expansion too. Yours looks great!
Rubin, congratulations on the planned addition. I agree, with that much space, I would work on sections at a time, to not get overwhelmed with the tasks you don't like as well as others. My design was made on SCARM because that is what 'DoubleDAZ' Dave uses. I do not know how other tools compare.
Rubin, we have RRTrax and are pleased with it. 18 X 38 and the track plan has been within 1/4”. If you want some info, send us an e-mail. We are doing by sections; even that gets a bit old.
Mark really knows what he is doing. We try to never miss his updates.
@RubinG posted:Mark, I too have enjoyed following your progress. Good luck with the scenery. I’m in the midst of packing away my trains and dismantling my layout to make way for our addition and my new, much larger layout room. This project is at least six months to completion. Then I can begin construction and apply some of the lessons I’ve learned from the others and you. Now if I can only find a good track planning tool or program.
And while I have 20x25 to work with, I’m thinking more and more about biting off smaller pieces because the thing does seem rather daunting.
any thoughts, anyone?
Rubin- Try SCARM, the free version allows you to get your feet wet but it has a track piece limit. If you like it you can upgrade to the full version for a reasonable price.
Some guys like Anyrail too.
For your build- if you develop a plan and can get the bulk of the benchwork done, at least the big mess is behind you. Track can be done in modules so you can concentrate on one section at a time. Of course if you are eager to run trains then dive in head first.
Good luck with the move and keep us posted.
Bob
Congrats on reaching a new stage. I have always found shifting gears like that to be invigorating, giving me new energy as I turn to new tasks. I hope the same is true for you.
Hopefully Santa brings a lot of good things Mark. I think I have gotten enough from Santa already with my most recent visit to my LTS. 🎄🎅🎅🎅
FWIW, I have used RRTrack, SCARM, and AnyRail. I found AnyRail much easier and more intuitive to use, so that's what I stuck with. AnyRail has a free trial version as well so you can see how you like it.
Thank you GunrunnerJohn. I always appreciate your insight and advice.
As long as I am posting, I’d like to ask two more questions: 1) How do you vent for airbrush painting? 2) I have several engines that I’d like to convert to TMCC such as the Lionel scale NYC Mohawk, the Lionel Green GG-1 from 1981, the K-Line scale GG-1 and several others. My concern is that they all have PulMor motors, which don’t play nicely with TMCC, or so I am told. What are your thoughts? Do you do these conversions and, if so, what is the cost? I also hope that I haven’t violated the rules with this last question.
thanks, as always.
Thank you Bill, Steve, Dave for the compliments!
Thank you Bill, Bob, John for your comments in response to Rubin's question!
Bill, I sure have you fooled that I know what I am doing! 
Actually, maybe I do know what I am doing in that I ask questions before I blow something up or gripe about a product that I can't get to work because I didn't read the directions! 
I'm asking John questions quite a lot.
Steve, you are right about shifting gears to something new is invigorating. Sometimes, like wiring you go for weeks and can't really see any physical progress. I think that is a big part of where wiring bogs modelers down.
Dave, I do know some of what Santa is bringing; nothing earth shattering, but still well appreciated. I do have a couple MTH pre-orders in, but we could see them next Christmas. I only said that because I placed the preorders not very long ago, not that I'm complaining at all. I can accept things take a long while to arrive.
Rubin, 1. Back in my HO days, I bought a paint booth made by Badger I think. Connected the exhaust fan to a section of dryer vent hose and a dryer vent that I mounted on a board and placed in an open window so it fit like a window air conditioner. I haven't used it in this house yet, even though we have been in this house over 10 years. I do know I need to make a new vent. I'm sure others have more elaborate setups. I don't have a shop room. My 11x11 train room doubles as my shop. It can be a challenge.
2. I can do my own conversions as long as they don't involve any metal work other than drilling a new hole in the chassis. Replacing the Pullmor motors would be easy for me electrically, but there is usually a lot of fitting and metal work to be done to make proper brackets. I have a K-Line NYC Hudson that I sent to Pat of Harmonyards in North Carolina. He has really turned out some gems, both mechanically, but with new electronics, paint, the works, or as little as you want. Send him an email that is in his profile, and he can get with you on what you want, what he recommends, and a price. Mine is in the queue at this time. Right now he is busy, but is retiring from his day job in 2022 and plans to work on a lot of engines. I see no violation of the rules in asking at all. Someone gives you a tip of who to ask, and then you contact them via email or phone.
@Mark Boyce posted:Connected the exhaust fan to a section of dryer vent hose and a dryer vent that I mounted on a board and placed in an open window so it fit like a window air conditioner.
That's a good idea Mark. No building permit required.
Mark posted: Steve, you are right about shifting gears to something new is invigorating. Sometimes, like wiring you go for weeks and can't really see any physical progress. I think that is a big part of where wiring bogs modelers down.
Mark you hit toenail square on the head that is where I am now. Spent 8 hours Saturday with a friend helping me and all we accomplished was to convert some temporary wiring to permanent wiring. HELP!!!!!
Mark, I got a bunch of preorder stuff that is always calling me. I just got a call tonight that the Atlas/MTH passenger cars of the Southern Road Name came in tonight. That does bring a smile to my face but I'll have to wait until the new year before I see them.
Yeah, Pat does excellent work, and your K-Line Hudson is going to be the biggest home run you have ever seen. He did a great deal to my NYC #3000 Mohawk, which I am still in love with. My first scale engine bought so many year ago has an even greater lease on it's life because of Pat. The scary thing is that I have two Hudson's(same K-Line one as yours and Lionel's Vanderbilt Tender) with him, I have two Commodore Vanderbilt's that will eventually had off to him, #3005 Mohawk and a surprise as well.
Just a ton of stuff in the works, and only a bit of time to hear the Pistons pumping on the rails. Maybe this weekend I can get a minute to do other things railroad related to move on projects here at home. At least one of us is working on the railroad.
Dave, when he did your NYC 3000 Mohawk, did he swap out the Pul-Mor motor? If he did not, how well has the engine worked in TMCC? I have found that several of the early TMCC engines with the old style motors had rather poor speed control. I’d welcome your experience.
May I ask what the cost was ( I’ve got 6 engines to “fix.”)?
Thanks,
Rubin
Rick, yes that is a great example of what I mean. I hope you get beyond the wiring soon.
Dave, I hope you get more time with your layout. I've certainly seen times like what you describe.
@RubinG posted:I have found that several of the early TMCC engines with the old style motors had rather poor speed control. I’d welcome your experience.
Thanks,Rubin
Rubin- a couple of options. You can install a Third Rail ERR AC Commander board. It will work with the pullmor motors. An alternative is to have the pullmor's replaced with DC can motors and install a Cruise Commander. I believe there's a member/ vendor on the forum who offers direct drop in replacements.
All of the ERR boards run on Lionel's TMCC/ Legacy system. I've done one conversion and have two more in the pipeline. One will be a AC commander so I can't say how well it controls the speed yet. I'm sure some of the experts will chime in with their advice.
Bob
@RubinG posted:Dave, when he did your NYC 3000 Mohawk, did he swap out the Pul-Mor motor? If he did not, how well has the engine worked in TMCC? I have found that several of the early TMCC engines with the old style motors had rather poor speed control. I’d welcome your experience.
May I ask what the cost was ( I’ve got 6 engines to “fix.”)?Thanks,
Rubin
Yes, the motor is now a Pittman which will pull out the kitchen sink. Pat did quite a bit of work there besides the motor swap, so my price isn't just for the motor. The other thing is Alex M did all the electronic bits as well as some other stuff as well. So, my cost is more than what would be normal. Remember, #3000 has no TMCC guts in it other than after it was converted.
So, overall the work I had done is the cost of high end diesels or so, not a nice new shiny steam locomotive(that is from both shops added together). Depending on all of what you want done will definitely have different prices. If you can do some of the work yourself, that will definitely cheapen your cost as Bob says.
Being that there are a bunch of people who offer their services for all kinds of upgrades, prices vary from person to person obviously.
Also, my engine is now back to being my favorite, lol. When I had originally gotten it so many years ago, it was what I always ran under the Christmas tree, and is again. Being that I don't have a big enough layout(built yet), it will serve in under the tree service until such things change.
Mark, what are you going to be working on the rest of the week/after Christmas? I have only been reading about half pages as of late as there is so much stuff to catch up on most of the times. Never enough time.
Thank you everyone for giving Rubin some ideas about the engines with the Pullmor motors.
Dave, I started cutting and gluing a few pieces of Styrofoam to make a scenery base for this area. It will be removable to get at wires.
It isn't far enough along, so I won't bother with a photograph. I'm going to go around the layout and make bases. I have some extruded Styrofoam and thin plywood to make the removable bases. I have been storing a bunch of this white insulation cut to put between studs on 16" centers that my wife brought home from a thrift store a few years ago. It's basically white beadboard. I don't like working with it, but she will be happy when I put some of it to use. I'll cover it over, so it really doesn't matter what it is. It just makes a mess, as does all Styrofoam so what's it matter.
Removable--and even interchangeable--bases are an excellent plan. The benefits are access, ability to work on the area on the bench rather than hunched over the layout, and, if you like, the ability to swap out scenes for changing themes, locations, or season. Wise choice!
Thank you! The ability to access some wiring and not reaching to the back of the layout are the first considerations. Having a small layout, the ability to make extra scenes is the the thought that came next. As has been the case throughout, I need to use that Styrofoam to make room for some extra buildings and hopefully store some interchangeable scenes.
Bill Bramlage had an article on this in CTT. He doesn’t like to to weather his structures but he’s an undeniably prolific and creative modeler.
on another front, I think that I’ve found a track plan for my new layout, based on Stuart Venit’s layout in the May 2016 OGR.
ove attached the plan, which I will evidence by 2 feet and substitute an engine terminal with turntable on the for the logging branch.
Any thoughts welcome. 
Now that is an idea Mark. When I was building my Christmas tree layout, I was talking to Phil at work who was at the time an intern engineer. We both share a love of trains, and he had suggested the foam board to try to deaden sound. I did also use Rossbed for the roadbed on it, so no pesky magnification of sound as if the rails were right on it(I believe someone had posted about it having that effect somewhere).
After I had built it all, I had though about if it could be used to help add some scenery details. Well, I didn't go with that, but did have another idea over the summer. I had thought about something like dinner placemats being used to make a base for doing grass base or even creating a movable base that would be cut to a specific size for whatever was needed. It could be cut to hug the rails and provide other such spaces here and there. Since it is a plastic mat of sorts, figured it would fit into spots pretty well. Never thought about styrofoam for some reason. Maybe because I always think mountains when I see those.
Dave, Yes, I think the placemats would be too flimsy to move around. My Christmas layout (which I didn't put up this year) is a sheet of 2" Styrofoam. It is quite sturdy when moving around. I used a square section of Styrofoam about 4x4 under the Christmas tree for several years in the past.
Hi Mark,
Being totally new to this hobby I am guessing you are planning to make a standard size scene so you can remove them for access and replace with a new scene to keep the interest. Do I have that right, or am I way off? If not way off I am very interested in how you mate the permanent scene with the removable scene to make it seamless. Thanks in Advance. John
John, Some scenes will just be nature (trees, rocks, etc) like the section I posted yesterday. That one may never be changed out for another one, but only removed if I need to get at the wires for the track above it. I am certainly not done adding and forming foam, but this one will be about 2 feet long and less than a foot deep. I roughly drew the outline of it in red. (Boy so I have a time drawing with the mouse) I may put in a trackside shed or service road, or it may just be rocks and a hillside.
In this one I had initially planned to have a town on a hillside. That was before I acquired the model of the Thomas, West Virginia engine house. It is about 4 feet long and a foot deep, and has a lot of work to be done before it takes it's final shape. I still plan to put some buildings on it and trees to partially hide a power station backdrop making it look like it is in the distance. For my thinking, this one lends itself more towards building more than one at some point to change out scenes. Regardless, the first reason to have this one removable is that I can build and scenic it at a convenient table instead of reaching over the tracks at 50" high.
In the second photograph, I need to raise the backdrop since I am covering up the trees. Fortunately, it is not attached to the wall yet, since I thought I would be altering it. I also need to pull out the right hand section and paint it. I ran out of backdrop that I bought from a forum member.
You raised a good point about how to hide the joint. Planting bushes or trees along the seam is the easiest method. Where that isn't available, I have seen where modelers have used the edges of buildings, stone walls, or some overlap of scenery. Sometimes, it is difficult to hide the seam, like if a road crosses it. I think there you could rough in the road, the with the removable section in position, you could match up the scenery pretty closely. Visitors would hardly notice unless the seam is pointed out.
Mark, The question is whether you’ll notice the seam. I recall someone hanging a hot air ballon or a model plane from the ceiling in front of a seam that not only hides the seam, but adds a bit of interest. Just a thought for you.
Bob
Congrats Mark on Phase Completion! A thought occurred to me regarding holding the insulators straight when gluing on the transformer - possibly using a piece of that white styrofoam, jam the insulators in where you want them, ensuring their bases extend the same distance, and glue them all at once. Lift off the styrofoam when the glue has dried. One-time use jig!
Thanks for sharing your progress and for being so personable and transparent with your process and life.
Mark, forward thinking idea to make the foam removable to access wiring. Can’t wait to see both scenes take shape.
Andy
Thank you, Bob, Dan, Andy!!
Bob, you are absolutely right; the builder always knows every flaw in his work. He has to decide if he will try to improve or if he can live with it. The baloon is a novel idea for hiding a seam. The imagination is the limit of how to hide any flaw.
Dan, I think your idea of the one time jig could work. I'll have to try it.
Andy, my forward thinking comes from the experience of doing too much backward thinking. I have gotten ahead of myself too many times on this layout.
Mark, I confess, I’m guilty of the same thing! I’ve gotten ahead of myself and cost myself time more than I’d like to admit
Andy
Interesting to watch this discussion.
Seam in a road. Where we live, there is usually a road crew with signs, trucks, people, etc and you can’t see much of what they are doing. This should work on the layout. Road is under repair and hides the seam. Remove/reassemble in 5 minutes.
Or you could stage an accident, flat tire, etc.
One unrelated question. The floodlight tower… is it LED or the old burn out every hour style bulb? If no LED, don’t forget to convert it while you can easily do so.
Andy, Sorry for you, but glad to know I'm not the only one and am losing it!
Bill, Excellent scene and point of interest. Road repair is certainly something we see here in Pennsylvania all spring, summer, and fall. I just saw something that says Pennsylvania roads are in the worst shape in the nation. I know our Ohio and Michigan friends, and maybe some others, would beg to differ. There is a steep, winding road going down into town a mile from home; (wait a minute! every road going into town is steep and most are winding. The couple that aren't winding look like you are going down one of the inclines in Pittsburgh off of Mount Washington 
) They have worked since spring putting in a new water line down that hill. They made scads of straight cuts in the asphalt. Now they are filled in with black asphalt making for a nice straight line, although they are pretty bumpy.
The floodlight tower is a '70s era plastic unit that someone threw in the box when I bought something here on the Forum. You might say the LED conversion has started, in that it came with 3 of the bayonet type incandescent bulbs missing and one socket has a Christmas tree light instead of the stock bulb. It is on the list for LEDs when I replace the bulbs in my passenger cars and cabooses. The plastic also needs a paint job. Thank you for pointing it out, because as we have been discussing; I can get ahead of myself!!
I knew that I was approaching 5 years since I started this thread. My initial post dated January 8, 2017 is quoted below. It has also been 2 years since I gave up on Plan 'C' and started the present layout, Plan 'D'. (Yes, I date myself back to 'Back to the old drawing board' days as a draftsman using pencil on velum, as opposed to the 'computer age' where the plans would have been numbered 1.0 through 1.4.) But I digressed.
@Mark Boyce posted:As I have mentioned on other topics, our last daughter married in September, leaving us empty nesters. Just a week ago, I helped her and our son-in-law move the rest of her things out of an 11’ 6” x 11’ 4” basement room she had been using as an art studio. This will be my layout room. While I have built layouts in HO and N scales, this will be my first in O gauge, not counting the temporary 4x8 temporary layout that has our Christmas theme and my Ceiling Central RR in a similarly sized room diagonal to the new layout room.
I have hesitated starting a topic of my own layout design as I have been struggling getting some thoughts down on what I am looking to accomplish and realistically look at obstacles and how to address them. First, this is the most room I have ever had for a layout since my first back when I was about 12, but I never built in O gauge, so there are definite restrictions.
I envision this layout depicting the Appalachians, as I have observed in my home state of Pennsylvania and states of Virginia and West Virginia, where I have lived in the past. It seems I like anything that was around before I was born in 1956, so steam to diesel transition era works. I am not sticking to a year or decade. If there is a car or engine I like that is a bit newer, it will be on the layout. Here are some things I want to include:
- A small town
- Some mountains
- I want a look of the trains going somewhere, but realize I may have to rely on imagination in a room less than 12 x 12
- Coal trains and operating accessories
- Logging trains and operating accessories
- Mixed freight
- Passenger trains
- An area of operating accessories for future grandchildren which could be at a lower level than the rest of the track.
- There are more I will add as they come to mind or as you ask questions.
Some thoughts on how to accomplish this in such a small space. As the preliminary SCARM diagram shows. There is a sliding glass door on the right-hand wall as you enter the door from the rest of the basement. I need to keep full access to it. My thoughts have been a ‘U’ shaped layout with the open end of the ‘U’ facing the door. There are 2 windows as well. I do not want to be stretching across the layout, but may have to have turnback loops at the ends of the ‘U’. To accommodate my Premier N&W J 611, Weaver Gold Edition B&O Cincinnatian, and their consists, I think I would have to include a loop around the room. My thoughts have been to put that at the highest level, with lift-out bridges at the opening of the ‘U’.
These are initial thoughts that have been with me for a good while. It is time to put them out there for anyone who wishes to participate to ask questions, give suggestions, or just chat in general. At the outset, I want to thank everyone who contributes in any way. I want to get this close to what works best for me, because I do not want to count on doing heavy rebuilding at a later age. At 60, I realize I could be hampered in the heavier construction sooner than I would hope.
I thought it would be an interesting exercise to look back at my first thoughts and see where 5 years and the input form so many great, knowledgeable friends has taken me. Since I have little to add to the 'Finished wiring, What's next?' transition, I thought I would throw this out for any reflection any of you may offer. Feel free to go back and peruse Page 1 if you wish.
Happy New Year!!!
Happy New Year Mark! I went back over page 1 as you suggested. I think you have accomplished much of what you set out to do. What’s next? I think to choose various areas of the layout and complete the scenery for that space. Which area you choose is best known to you.
Andy
Mark, you’ve made plenty of progress. It may seem like it’s a slow journey but in following your posts. I don’t see to many do overs or anything getting ripped up and starting over. You hit quite a few things on your checklist.
I started over 30 years ago. Still working on the same layout. Envisioned heavy mainline traffic modeling the NYC and having numerous passenger trains. I have a large layout space. But what I was trying to accomplish just wasn’t working. The layout just seemed overwhelmed with trains. The layout never changed that much. But instead of buying ready to run NYC, B&A equipment. I turned to modeling the Rutland. Which involves a lot of modeling as not much is available. Luckily they really don’t have a huge variety roster to model. Smaller engines and few but short passenger trains. I have many duplicate engines just with different numbers.
The videos you’ve posted look good to my eye. Smaller engines and decent sized consists. While not a huge area. The twice around with grades does make it seem like the train is going somewhere other than a circle. Hope to see some scenery this year on it. That will help pull off the effect even more.
Mark you have very well with your layout construction and looks very nice. You are WAY ahead of me I am still wiring. I built 4 of GRJ watchdogs and got them installed this weekend and that is about where I will take a break. I ran out of two wire colors and had to order 2 more 100 foot roles of each. Keep up the great work you have a lot to be proud of and accomplished.
Mark,
I agree with the above statements. You have come a long way with this project and have made great use of your space. I think the pace you have taken has made for the necessary time to just run trains. The next phases coming will present you with a lot of creativity but if those trains are not running as desired, it will take away from it. Congratulations on your progress and thanks for sharing it with all of us.
Dave
It's important that we note where we have been and how we got to the present state. "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it".
Keep up the good work!
George
Mark, if you are half as complementary to your family as you are to others on this forum you are in a great place regardless of the train layout.
I have enjoyed this past year watching your progress, and was inspired by your posts to share mine. Happy new year!
There is a lot that you have completed and probably had not thought about 5 years ago. The bridges are something that come to mind or relays and all that fun stuff. Seems to me that when you ran the trains in the Fall and had your dream consist on the tracks you reached a major milestone.
Here is to the next five years without the medical issue.
Mark......keep up the great work.......and, thank you for sharing your journey with us!
Peter
And let's not forget, knee replacement and back surgery in between....
You've made great progress Mark. I've enjoyed following your build as time has gone by. I'm 7 years in at the end of the month and I can't believe how fast the time has gone.
Needless to say, you have stuck to your plan for the most part. With some nudging on the engine house and yard....
. The layout is going to be beautiful when it's done. Run trains and enjoy your accomplishments. The scenery will get there in due time.
Bob
Thank you everyone for the comments!
Andy, Yes I made a start on scenery. Not much to speak of yet. This was made from a bunch of left over pieces. I do need to buy some more Styrofoam for the base.
Dave C, You are right. Once I got started on Plan D, construction has flowed pretty well. I did hit a lot on the checklist. One thing that I didn't is like you switching to Rutland. The N&W J and B&O Cincinnatian are long gone; sold and much more Western Maryland has been purchased. I do have a B&O and a Chessie engine and a couple caboose of each.
Rick, I'm glad you got the GRJ Watchdogs working. It is interesting you mentioned wire. I have plenty of the #14 red and black I used for the track power feeds, but barely have any of the smaller wire I used for the switches and uncouplers. I switched colors a couple of times for one more run, but it is obvious where the changes are. I just picked up the corrected drawings yesterday, and will have to make final copies before some of the scratch-outs don't make sense to me anymore. I'll have to buy more wire before the next wiring project.
Dave, So far running trains has worked out pretty well. The last problem was where one engine hit the DZ1000 mounting screw, but that wasn't much of an issue.
George, You are right about looking back and not forgetting where you came from. That can help pinpoint where a particular action led to a problem down the road that can be remembered for future problems.
Dan, Thank you! I'm glad to be able to inspire others, just like others inspired me.
Bill, Five years ago, and even 2 years ago, I had no intention of buying any AIUs. Now I have two in service and one extra. Thank you for all the help on getting them setup and wired. That doubleheader coal train with the pusher was a particular goal. I actually let it sit on the layout and didn't run any other trains for about a month because I hated to break up the train. The next 5 years without medical issue would be great! Between my wife and I, we have had 13 surgeries performed by that orthopedic group in the last 20 years. The most serious of those have been in the last 5 years. Both the knee and the hand specialists always chuckle when they see us back! $$
Peter, Thank you!
Bob, How could I forget the knee and back surgeries?? Today was rough taking down the Christmas tree and some other assorted decorations. I intended to leave the yard Nativity out there past January 6th. If the weather is too bad, it may stay until spring. You are right about sticking to the plan. The enginehouse and yard were new. I intended to fit in an extra siding or two, but didn't know where until I had the track basically done.
I have been moving stuff around under the layout making some more room. Work space is really at a premium.
Thank you again for all the great comments!
You should post some videos of the trains making their way around your layout Mark!
Bill Yo, I have one of the train Bill Webb mentioned above. I’ll have to look it up and post it. What I need to do is get the hoppers off the layout and do a video of a mixed freight or passenger train. Thank you for the suggestion!!!
You had the video of the hopper train and I really enjoyed it! I'm the type of person that likes to see the entire layout instead of trying to assemble it in my head from pictures.
I'll see what I can do to show the whole layout, Bill!
Your progress despite the medical issues is re-Mark-able.
Seriously, I know how that goes. Just the most recent three years: my wife had three hip replacements in one year (2018, all on the same hip), I was hospitalized in 2019, and my wife broke her ankle in 2020 with a long convalescence. Let's say that progress on my layout has been minimal, so I am very impressed with what you have managed to do. 
Happy New Year Mark. 5 years, oh my goodness. Seems like that will hit the York 5 years ago first timers reunion for us. Glad to see you get going on things and come out where you have gotten to.
I remember what Gun Runner John said about scenery, which is an extremely helpful perspective to have. He said, "I can do everything with electronics, Harry is the scenery guy. I don't need too much fancy stuff..." Or something pretty much on par with that.
The main thing is that you are still moving right along(down the tracks am I allowed to say?). While it may have been a long bit since I have really looked hard at things on this topic, it always brings a smile a mile wide just reading a few comments or a few pages(if possible for me if time permits). I still think one of the best things I had seen last year was the bridges and how you made them lift bridges. Gotta give that to you. Keep things going Mark, and who knows, maybe my Railroad CEO will eventually decide to break ground, lol.
Steve, thank you for the compliment. Seeing your post reminds me to remark that I have the parts you sent me to fix the top of the smaller truss bridge sitting on a shelf. IT is interesting, that when the train is running, I never notice the gap on the top of my bridge. I'll get to that one day. I'm sorry about all of your surgeries, especially about your wife's trouble with the hip.
Dave, thank you! Yes we are coming up on that meeting at our first trip to York. I still remember you walking up to me, and I didn't recognize you because of your sunglasses. I still have my two York passes in the holder hanging in the train room. Thank you about the lift bridges. It just shows what we can learn by sharing on the Forum. I got the idea and some coaching from Mike G., then I worked out how to adapt it to my situation. I've been pleased it still works good. I hope you get time to break ground as well.
You've come a long way in 5 years and have trains up and running so feel good about your accomplishments!
-Greg
Greg, Thank you! Yes I am pleased. This is the farthest I have gotten on a layout in 25 years. Raising our family and moves to different houses because of employment changes took priority, as they should.
Mark, Reflecting on the last five years, well since I've only been on this forum for less than one, I can only say that from reading past posts that you have a great layout well underway. Well planned and executed trackwork, excellent wiring, two awesome lift bridges, and a good start on the scenery base. All this is a huge accomplishment and something to be proud of!
Perhaps even more importantly, is the advice, moral support and encouragement you continually offer to others here on the forum. I'm very glad you and others with a similar mindset are a part of this community. Thank you for all of your contributions.
Steve, thank you for the encouraging words to me. I totally agree that there are so many folks here who have a similar mindset. You are welcome, I am happy to encourage others. You have contributed so much t this forum yourself that I wouldn't have thought you have only been here less than a year!!!
BillYo, I am working on setting up a new train to video on the layout. I hope to have something to share soon!
Mark, you're welcome. Thank you for the compliment.
Mark, you've come a long way in 5 years. You are inspiring me to keep going with mine, be it ever so slow.
John
Here are a couple videos as Youngstown Bill requested.
The first video just shows a pan of the view as I walk in the door of the train room to give a lay of the land.
This one is a video inside the layout main operating area is of the RailKing Western Maryland Pacific #204 pulling a 4-car train of heavyweights. I started the video with the train running below the camera to give a bit of continuity from the first video. The semi-scale RailKing train doesn't look too bad as it passes scale engines and cars. These are the only semi-scale models I run on the layout.
Here is the Altoona Model Works Branchline Station kit as it stands now. The instruction sheets are very well done. I'm following it exactly as directed. So far it is a simple box of Masonite sheathed with thin clapboard siding sections. It has gone together well with Ailene's glue as suggested in the instructions. The next step is to paint the shell, the roof sections, and the doors, windows, and trim. I'll use Western Maryland gray with red trim.
And now for something completely different!
As an aside, I took a few shots of the CN (former B&LE) train going past the Cleveland Cliffs (former Armco) plant as I was going into the Rite Aid pharmacy. There were two engines on the point, and two engines pushing. This is the end of the train, and all the hoppers are still lettered BLE. I finally got photographs that show road numbers of some engines to look up what they are. I can't tell one modern engine from another. These are both SD70M-2, engine numbers 8804 and 8827 on the end.
(And no; I am not standing beside my car. My car is at least 15 years older.)
@BlueComet400 posted:Mark, you've come a long way in 5 years. You are inspiring me to keep going with mine, be it ever so slow
John
Thank you very much, John!!!
Great progress Mark
You and GRJ always aspire me to get back at my layout. 
I was busy in November preparing for winter; I live in NH. I spent December in Canada, visiting my family. Now, I'm ready to get back at my model railroad.
Mark, the video is really nice. You have a lot of action with the railroad, town etc.
Keep inspiring us!
No one ever expects the B&LE!
Thanks so much for the video! I'm jealous that you can run some trains! I can't wait to get to that point.
Great catch on the trains! I didn't know Cleveland Cliffs acquired a plant in Butler. I also didn't know CN came down here.
Thank you, Keith, Bob, Steve, and Bill!
Keith, That is good you can settle down for the winter and work on your layout!!
Bob, I guess there is a lot you can do on a layout to make it seem like a lot of activity before you get real scenery started.
Steve, A often see B&LE, now CN, trains in addition to the Cliffs diesel, and the B&P on my side of the Connoquenessing Crick with Pennsylvania Route 8 in the foreground from that old, rather run down shopping center. We live high up on the hill above it, and we frequent Rite Aid, Dollar General, and Ace Hardware. I usually don't get a chance for a good photograph, though.
Bill, I know it is hard to wait on building a layout while you have to prepare a room. You are doing it the right way. Get some basic backdrop on that Masonite before you get to building too much benchwork. I was fussing with backdrop standing on my two-step platform reaching over to get the backdrop secured, and as can be seen in the videos, places on the backdrop still need work.
Yes, Cleveland Cliffs acquired Armco/AK two years ago, I believe. They also got the main plant in Middletown, Ohio. CN acquired the B&LE 5 to 10 years ago I suppose, but it has only been the last couple years that I am seeing their own power instead of the older B&LE engines. They still operate a yard just north of Butler and interchange with the B&P there near the B&P shops easily seen from US 422 and Pennsylvania Rt 68. There is still a lot of railroad action for a town of 13,000. Then they head south to North Bessemer at Unity Junction east of Pittsburgh. If you are on the Pennsylvania Turnpike, you can see the end of the yard there a mile or two east of the Turnpike and Bessemer Allegheny River crossing. I grew up in the rural part of the county along the B&O, but CSX now runs few trains since they bought the P&LE water level route.
Thank you everyone for looking and commenting!!
@palallin posted:No one ever expects the B&LE!
Our chief weapons are fear and surprise.......
Nice videos Mark. As I'm watching it occurred to me that the grades are workable on the 11' wall. When I get to rebuild one day, my longest dimension is 12'. Two-level operation is a must have for me.
Bob
Looking great Mark!! I miss going to the Bessemer yard! Really miss watching the Union RR too!
Thank you, Bob and Pete!
Bob, The grade against the wall is 4%. The SCARM plan showed it at 3.7%, so I used Woodland Scenics foam risers. Then I tapered the grade at the top and bottom for a smooth transition, making the grade less there. You should be good to go in 12 feet. One engine can pull a normal train up the 4%. I needed a helper only when I ran a 10-car hopper train up the grade, but extra engines was the whole point of the exercise. I wanted to double head on the point and have a rear pusher for fun! The other grade was a little less on SCARM, then I lengthened the tangent tracks making for a slightly longer run over the trestles lessening the grade slightly.
Pete, I knew right away from your profile name "Little Giant" that you are interested in the P&LE and this area. Yes 1035 miles is a little far to go railfanning. I have only watched trains at the Bessemer yard on video. Thank you for joining in on the discussion!!!
Since we moved back to the area in '95, we first lived close to the Bessemer & Lake Erie yard and Buffalo & Pittsburgh shops north of Butler, then bought my wife's grandparents' house on the hill south of town almost overlooking the Armco/AK Steel/Cliffs plant. They do a lot of switching there too.
@Mark Boyce posted:Bob, The grade against the wall is 4%. The SCARM plan showed it at 3.7%, so I used Woodland Scenics foam risers. Then I tapered the grade at the top and bottom for a smooth transition, making the grade less there. You should be good to go in 12 feet. One engine can pull a normal train up the 4%.
I can't believe that's 4%. It looks reasonable. People always say 4% isn't a good idea but that looks fine to me!
Did you just set the transition as you felt necessary? I haven't seen any rule of thumb or anything for getting up to the grade.
Bill, Since the prototype Western Maryland Railway Black Fork Grade is over 3.5%, 4% seemed the logical choice. Way back 5 years ago, I tested my engines pulling cars up various grades I mocked up on the floor. As I recall all the engines could pull trains of the lengths I would use on this small layout up even steeper grades. Perhaps those who are saying that is too steep are pulling trains of 10, 20, 30 cars up long grades on much longer layouts. Then I could see they could get in trouble.
The transitions were really trial and error. On past layouts, I used the old cookie cutter method of cutting the plywood and putting in risers to make any grade I wanted with automatic easy transitions from horizontal to the grade. On this layout, since the SCARM grades were near 4% and my carpentry skills are digressing, I copped out and used Woodland Scenics 4% foam risers. The problem with them is, you have to taper into the grade at the bottom of the grade and then back out to horizontal at the top. I had one steam engine that kept shorting out at the bottom of the grade, and front wheels would lift off the track at the top of the grade. I did so much cutting and shimming, it would have been easier to go back to the cookie cutter I learned back in the old Kalmbach Publishing book, 'HO Railroad that Grows' that I just about wore out when I was a teenager in the late '60s and early '70s. If I build another layout, I'll go back to the plywood cookie cutter method for sure!
I feel like the warnings I've read were to stay under 3% but I also found up to 5.5% worked ok and still looked good.
I thought it might be something like this I'm more nervous about working up to the grade than the grade itself!
Bill, I just laid a long board on the floor, then propped up one end with blocks of wood, and laid straight track on it. I put an engine with so many cars an the track, applied power, and tested it out.
As has been said time and time again on this forum and other places, it is ultimately your railroad; do what you like and what works.
Good morning, Mark, the videos are great! You sure have come a long way from the time I joined the forum! Everything looks like it's going to be a fun RR to run and when you get the scenery done, I bet it's going to look outstanding! Thanks for the update and I will be being PMing you with a question about your video!
I hope you have a great day and are staying safe!
Mark,
Good idea on the testing methodology and likewise, the advice on transition also makes a lot of sense. Common sense applies. I can recall as a kid being able to pull my three passenger cars with a magnetraction Hudson up a steep grade of Lionel trestle since I had to do so in a short distance - I believe it was probably a 4x10 or so layout. I also did so with a short freight. But I do remember it wouldn’t work if there were curves involved or if I began adding more cars. The takeaways from that is it depends on what you want to accomplish. So using your advice, include curves and a typical consist in the testing, and if it works, you’re set! If you have plans for something more, then think twice?
Bob
A variable to keep in mind is that a curve on a grade adds significantly to the difficulty an engine has pulling its train. I had to rethink my previous layout because there was a relatively gentle grade on a curve, and one of my engines just couldn't make it up the hill pulling more than 2 cars.
Thank you, Mike, Bob, Steve!
Mike, I’m glad to see you aren’t shoveling snow. It is cold, but no snow here. I’ll be looking for your message.
Bob and Steve, you are both right about curves hindering pulling power. I knew that going in, but didn’t test it. I was fortunate to get away with it here. So, Bill definitely keep it in mind. I appreciate Bob and Steve mentioning it, so I don’t lead you astray!!
Hey Mark, I forget to mention the other day that I finally got in watching the two videos you posted above. Yeah, it took a bit to get them in because of how active things were this past weekend(Go Steelers). I really do enjoy a nice slow steam locomotive just going through the motions(as it were) climbing up and coming back down. Also working on that Altoona Model Works Station, brave. I have not even started working on my New Haven Signal Tower. I just don't seem to have the time to sit down and work on something that will take a bit. I think I need to pick up some supplies still that I haven't got around to picking up. Ugh. Everything looks dang good so far Mark.
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