Blackwater Canyon Line - March 20, 2025, Brick Street Extension Planning

jpv69 posted:

I'm in late!!!

Bon anniversaire, Mark! 

jpv in France

 

Merci beaucoup, JPV! 

(I hope I spelled that right. I took French in high school almost 50 years ago) 

C'est parfait!

jpv

It has been a while since I last posted here.  Those who have followed may remember I wrote I wouldn’t get back to doing anything until after New Year’s Day.  In the meantime, I did a little more thinking.  Being tied up on other things gave time to reflect on the plan and what others have commented.  I thought of a couple changes and tried my hand at depicting those on the SCARM plan.

As you may recall, I have the layout loosely based on the Blackwater Canyon (Blackfork Grade) of the Thomas subdivision on the Western Maryland Railway in the Steam-Diesel transition era, which happens to be the time I was born.  Trains can travel from Elkins (the lower loop in the upper left of the plan and the staging yard with drop in cassettes for moving cars on and off the layout.  It travels to Parsons on the sweeping turnback curve in the lower right.  Then starts up the Blackfork grade through Blackwater Canyon finally ending up at Thomas on the top level in the upper left.  The train will go under a portion of the town built on a hillside via the upper turnback loop.   At this point I could say it is going back to Parsons, or pretend it is going down the other side of the mountain towards Cumberland.

This brings in an addition to the plan and addition to the roster.  On the way down the other side of the mountain from Thomas there was a steep branch line called the Chaffee Branch.  To handle bringing coal off the mountain, the Western Maryland bought Shay #6 in 1945 I think it was, the last Shay built, which is the Shay #6 that is now at Cass Scenic Railroad.  I had an amazing opportunity to buy an MTH Premier PS2 Western Maryland Shay #6 from a Forum friend in December.  So I have added the steep Chaffee branch to the bottom of my SCARM design.

One other thing about the SCARM design.  Last year we added 054 curves at the big sweeping curve at Parsons on the right.  However, 054 didn’t fit into the design we had for the stacked turnback loops in the upper right.  Over the fall, I have thought of trying to fit those in.  So, the SCARM design I am now attaching has nothing smaller than 054.  Yes, it makes that upper right section wider, but this is the section I am going to make detachable and roll away from the wall for access as I made in the small room last winter.

One last note.  I received notice that my first Mianne Benchwork kit was shipped today.  This will take in the 12-foot wall on the left-hand side.  I will then build the roll out unit at the top.  If I like Mianne as much as everyone else does, I’ll buy two more kits to take care of the rest of the benchwork later.  I have been pressed for money for this project and realized during the time I didn’t have a layout, I accumulated more engines, rolling stock, and operating accessories than I could ever use on this layout.  You may have seen me posting items for sale over the last few months.  I now have 3 steam and 3 diesel engines I can use on this layout.  More than enough.  I keep records on a spreadsheet for insurance reasons and see I have reduced my inventory by 40%.  There were a couple hard decisions, but as soon as they were sold, I was happy they are in good hands.

So, let me know what you think.  Yes, the SCARM design has flaws.  I really butchered up the layers for one, but I think the concept will work.  I have included a .pdf of my latest design because I can not find how to do a Capture in the documentation, and am tired of looking.  

  Thank you anyone who takes a look and leaves a comment or critique.

Looks good Mark!  Plenty of running room and plenty of switching opportunities!  With room to add more!! 

Jim 

Looks good Mark.

Bob

Thank you, Jim and Bob!

Used to do a lot of hiking and backpacking around Thomas, Davis and Canaan Valley.  I remember seeing tracks but don't remember any trains running there in the early 1980s. 

Good luck with the layout expansion, It's great that you are able to pare back the rolling stock.  I really need to do that -- have way more stuff than I will ever run at one time.

Glad to hear you have more benchwork on the way. That Western Maryland Shay is sharp looking.  I like the plan with larger curves, it will give you more room for scenery. 

Only thing to consider, which I’m sure you have already, is reach in the upper left area. 

Keep us updated!

love the plan!

Mark, I moved all the track to the mainline layer except for the upper loop. That way you don't have to worry about layers when making changes, but can still turn off the upper loop to make working on the lower loop easier. I left the color-coding, mostly to make it easy to see the grade tracks, and fixed the disconnects.

I hope you realize you have very little mainline track left at elevation 0". However, even though SCARM won't allow switches on grades, you might still consider doing that during the build. If you put the passing siding and the grades leading to/from on a single grade, you can keep the mainline from the lower loop to Parsons at elevation 0" and begin a 2.6% grade from the apex of the loop all the way up to Thomas. The con to doing that is you won't be able to park cars alone on the passing siding because they'll roll downhill, but because you have grades between the switches, you won't be able to park cars anyway. The build would go much easier without all the grade changes needed just to put the switches on a flat surfaces. I think we talked abut this once before, so I just wanted to remind you.

Hey Mark

Looks great!

 I glad you are back at it 

Al

Bill, It has been a while since I read about when they stopped running trains there.  It seems to me it was sometime in the ‘70s; but don’t quote me. Thank you 

JD, thank you.  The upper left is where the roll out section comes in.  That will let me get behind when I need to.  The stationary Benchwork will come out 30 or so inches.  Then a slightly larger rollout section like I built last winter will connect to it. The smaller one now serves as a prototype for a better one, it is back a few pages where I tried to show how it works.

Dr. Joe, Thank you.

Dave, Thank you for the fixes.  Yes I did have to stretch out the grade further!  You have a good point about the passing siding.  I don’t plan on parking cars and you are right if I did, I would have to make the whole siding flat.  I have read pros and cons on switches on grades.  Some say they cause derailments, others say they have never had a problem.  I think it is worth a try to make a constant grade.  It would be a lot easier.  Thank you again for the SCARM work.

Al, Thank you!

Mark,  I like the layout plans.

John Rowlen

Lookin' good, Mark

Looking great Mark! I cant wait to see you get started, but do us all a favor and take it easy! Don't want you going down do to a bad back! Plus you need to get that toe working again!

Thank you John, Carl, and Mike!  I’ve been trying to take it easy with the back, and lift and reach smarter!  The problem with the toe is I have to watch it doesn’t drag and my shoe catches on the carpet, ground, or even smooth concrete.  I have gotten pretty good at keeping it up enough nearly all the time, but the therapist said he can hear me coming, flop, flop, flop!  

very nice work...

Great to have you back at it, Mark, and the plan looks spot on.

Thank you, The Dude and Richie!!

I finalized the last roster sale this morning to raise funds for the Mianne and other layout building supplies.  This one wasn't as hard to let go of as some others.  I started cutting when I had to use the money I saved for the layout on car repair and dog repair.    Then I saw the Shay, so by that time I had cut so much, I just kept going.  I now have The Shay, a WM H9, and a PRR 0-4-0 switcher I want to re-letter for the WM.  On the diesel side, I have a BL2 and an A-B-A F3 set that I want to repaint and upgrade from PS to PS3, I have the kits.  I already upgraded the BL2.  I do have a WM PS3 Hudson on preorder for the passenger train, so no order from the new Lionel catalog.   That doesn't count the Christmas sets.

Mark Boyce posted:

It has been a while since I last posted here.  Those who have followed may remember I wrote I wouldn’t get back to doing anything until after New Year’s Day.  In the meantime, I did a little more thinking.  Being tied up on other things gave time to reflect on the plan and what others have commented.  I thought of a couple changes and tried my hand at depicting those on the SCARM plan.

As you may recall, I have the layout loosely based on the Blackwater Canyon (Blackfork Grade) of the Thomas subdivision on the Western Maryland Railway in the Steam-Diesel transition era, which happens to be the time I was born.  Trains can travel from Elkins (the lower loop in the upper left of the plan and the staging yard with drop in cassettes for moving cars on and off the layout.  It travels to Parsons on the sweeping turnback curve in the lower right.  Then starts up the Blackfork grade through Blackwater Canyon finally ending up at Thomas on the top level in the upper left.  The train will go under a portion of the town built on a hillside via the upper turnback loop.   At this point I could say it is going back to Parsons, or pretend it is going down the other side of the mountain towards Cumberland.

This brings in an addition to the plan and addition to the roster.  On the way down the other side of the mountain from Thomas there was a steep branch line called the Chaffee Branch.  To handle bringing coal off the mountain, the Western Maryland bought Shay #6 in 1945 I think it was, the last Shay built, which is the Shay #6 that is now at Cass Scenic Railroad.  I had an amazing opportunity to buy an MTH Premier PS2 Western Maryland Shay #6 from a Forum friend in December.  So I have added the steep Chaffee branch to the bottom of my SCARM design.

One other thing about the SCARM design.  Last year we added 054 curves at the big sweeping curve at Parsons on the right.  However, 054 didn’t fit into the design we had for the stacked turnback loops in the upper right.  Over the fall, I have thought of trying to fit those in.  So, the SCARM design I am now attaching has nothing smaller than 054.  Yes, it makes that upper right section wider, but this is the section I am going to make detachable and roll away from the wall for access as I made in the small room last winter.

One last note.  I received notice that my first Mianne Benchwork kit was shipped today.  This will take in the 12-foot wall on the left-hand side.  I will then build the roll out unit at the top.  If I like Mianne as much as everyone else does, I’ll buy two more kits to take care of the rest of the benchwork later.  I have been pressed for money for this project and realized during the time I didn’t have a layout, I accumulated more engines, rolling stock, and operating accessories than I could ever use on this layout.  You may have seen me posting items for sale over the last few months.  I now have 3 steam and 3 diesel engines I can use on this layout.  More than enough.  I keep records on a spreadsheet for insurance reasons and see I have reduced my inventory by 40%.  There were a couple hard decisions, but as soon as they were sold, I was happy they are in good hands.

So, let me know what you think.  Yes, the SCARM design has flaws.  I really butchered up the layers for one, but I think the concept will work.  I have included a .pdf of my latest design because I can not find how to do a Capture in the documentation, and am tired of looking.  

  Thank you anyone who takes a look and leaves a comment or critique.

Mark,

Ultimately, I don't think you will regret the decision to downsize your roster and put the money to a different (and better) use.  I have done the same thing, with an emphasis on eliminating excess rolling stock.  Fortunately, I have not accumulated a huge excess number of locomotives (7 total).  I think the new layout will support the simultaneous operation of two switchers (B6sb and S-2) and 4-5 mainline trains.  Those not operating will at least fit in the Staging Area without fowling the mainline.

Best,

George

Young Mr. Brown arrived with a long brown box on his shoulder and said,  "Here's 60 pounds of wood for you."  I was expecting it from Tim Foley.  I bought the CL02-24 kit which will fit in nicely along the left hand side of the layout.  I'll build it with the angled section on the left hand side of the kit.  Then I will be able to but the roll out section for the stacked return loops right up snug.

Annie has just finished the sniff inspection as I was getting the phone out to take her photograph.  She gave final approval!

     NICE Mark   looks like you & Annie are going to be busy tomorrow...

Mark, looks like you picked a good weekend to stay indoors to assemble the benchwork, good luck.  

JACK

Great news Mark! I see you will be busy! If its snowing that's a good thing, no reason to go outside! You, Momma, and Annie can stay inside where it will be nice and warm!

Brian, Jack, Mike, Thank you!!  I already have all the leg assemblies and one of the 2' x 4' sections made.  Building benchwork sitting in a chair!  Hard to beat! 

At this time we are still a bit above freezing so we are getting rain.  The forecast is for the temperature to start dropping around midnight and snow all night and morning.  I will have to go to my parents' empty house tomorrow afternoon or evening to check on the heat in the pump house. 

If you go out Mark, Be careful!

Wow, that was quick!  Stay home and finish the benchwork. 

Mark we are in the same boat!  Lots of flooding in our area and now we are heading to below freezing temps.   Everybody be careful and stay in unless you just have to go out!  Mark you can put your bench together!!  

Jim 

Good advice Mike and Bill!!!!   

carsntrains posted:

Mark we are in the same boat!  Lots of flooding in our area and now we are heading to below freezing temps.   Everybody be careful and stay in unless you just have to go out!  Mark you can put your bench together!!  

Jim 

Jim, I got a good start already!  

Annie not to sure of your new project.  Have fun assembling the bench work.  

Annie always has to inspect everything.  Yes indeed, she was not sure. I missed getting a her with her head cocked sideways.  

This evening I completed the corner section of the Mianne benchwork.  I test fit the middle 4-foot piece between the two sections I built, and it will all fit nicely.  I'm not connecting the two ends together yes, so they will be easy to move since we are going to change out what is on the shelves underneath first.

Looks good Mark! You can even ride your incline bike while you run trains!

That’s right Mike!  I’ll stay in shape running trains.  I can finally get back to it after the back sciatic problem!  It hurt too much the last couple months 

Mark Boyce posted:

Annie always has to inspect everything.  Yes indeed, she was not sure. I missed getting a her with her head cocked sideways.  

This evening I completed the corner section of the Mianne benchwork.  I test fit the middle 4-foot piece between the two sections I built, and it will all fit nicely.  I'm not connecting the two ends together yes, so they will be easy to move since we are going to change out what is on the shelves underneath first.

Mark so you are leaving the shelving there?   How wide is the miane bench plus the shelfing?     I'm trying to figure out if I want to narrow the 4ft section of my benchwork to 3ft ..  I cant reach the back of it.   BUT if I do I will lose 10 or so square feet of layout? After final getting to add that 16 square feet of room soon. 

Jim 

Looking good!

Peter

Looks good Mark. How do you like working with the Mainne product? It sure will speed up the benchwork building process! 

Andy

Looks good Mark. Guess your wife really needs to start clearing the books and other stuff now.

Bob

 looks good Mark !  glad you are feeling better !!

Jim, Thank you.  Excellent questions!  Yes, we have to leave the built-in bookshelves there.  We don't plan to stay here after my mother-in-law across the road passes or is in assisted or nursing care permanently.  She is only 83 and very fit, so that could be a few years.  We want to get out of the split entry home with our knee problems.  The paneling is over 50 years old, and we would never find a match.  Besides, if I get into a remodeling project, I won't have money for the layout.  So, as I told Mum, when she asked about portability, I said I will be careful to make the top, track and scenery in easily removable modules, then the Mianne can be partially disassembled and reconfigured for new space. 

All that said, The depth of the shelves and benchwork totals just a shade over 36".  My plan calls for 30" depth.  I do not intend the layout to but right up to the wall since the windows are there.  I want to leave a gap for some kind of curtains, whether the white shears, or maybe a blue shears would look nice.  Also I'm thinking in the future, I may want to make a lightweight removable backdrop for photography.  I did not take the 6" difference into account designing the layout, so in effect my usable space may be 6" less than on the plan.  No matter, lots of things will shift when building.

So yes, you have a similar problem.  I plan to not have track right up against the back, then I am planning a lot of removable scenic sections with bases of foam for lightweight.  Against those windows, the scenery will just be a wooded mountainside, so it should be easy to slide in and out.  The 4' deep Christmas layout against windows has taught me a lot of lessons about what you put in the back if you go with something deeper than 30"   Answering Andy's question below, reminded me that that back corner of the corner piece next to the brick wall will have mountain scenery in a foam based section of its own.  

Peter, Thank you!  You are one of many who through your testimony helped me decide to buy the Mianne kit.  Your home layout is great!

Andy, I have read and talked with many folks who bought Mianne.  They all said assembly is quick and easy.  That is a total understatement!!  I couldn't believe how easy the instructions are, how easy it goes together, and how perfect everything is designed and cut.  I may have 2 hours in what I put together there, and I did most of it sitting in that rolling office chair!  I only got up to make some connections on the back corner of the corner section.

Bob, Yes, she has been going through a lot of stuff that has accumulated anyway.  My thinking is to put empty train boxes on the built in shelves, since I seldom need to get at them, then put other things in containers under the Mianne benchwork.  We will see how it works out.

Brian, Thank you!  Yes, I did well with running the snow blower and a little push shoveling yesterday.  The foot still tingles after I have been sitting any length of time, and the lower back has just a dull ache.  One think I was told, I need to use good posture and lifting practices, or I can aggravate the disk again.  We all should be heeding that advice.

Mark, I am glad to see you planning for the future! Yes, get out of the split level, no more stairs! get yourself a nice spread out ranch style! LOL Your progress is looking great and soon you will be running trains! Best of luck!

In response to a question on the "What did you buy cool" topic, I reported this new update.

I have a lesson that I have tried to put into practice and have been more successful in recent years.  When doing something new, I like to stop and look at it a day or two before continuing.  This is probably not wisdom of over 6 decades of life, it is more like I need a rest and it is too much trouble to undo something I goofed up.    So after looking at this for two days, it dawned on me that I would have no trouble with the layout, but I would if I needed access to those windows.  Those are the only windows that have not been replaced in this 50-year old house, and the ground level outside is only about 4 inches below the sills.

Talking it over with my wife, I am going to shift the layout away from the windows, allowing 3 feet access.  It will work.  I will have to move some things that are behind the camera that are going out anyway.  I have been doodling in SCARM with this, and will report back when I have something.  It's easier to do it in SCARM, than redoing things in three dimensions.  A lot lighter weight too!  

Glad you’re making progress Mark. I’m looking forward to following along.

Andy

Thank you Andy!  I'm excited!  And I don't get excited about much!  

Sounds like a good plan Mark! Only move it once and still have access to the windows! I too will be watching your progress, but don't hurry as the fun is in building it!

Thank you, Mike!  You are exactly right that the fun is in building it, and to not hurry!  While we do like to get trains up and running, there is something to be said for even taking time to get to that point.  Getting trains up and running doesn't mean getting all the track laid and wired before the fun begins.  You showed us there is fun in just getting that small section of your track operational!

Looks great, Mark.

You're right about stepping back a day or two before embarking on that next great idea. I did that on my new layout and probably thought of a million little tweaks that I would not have if I just went right ahead and built it like I first thought.

I made another SCARM revision moving the whole layout away from the windows at the left. and over next to the door on the right.  To make walkways work, I had to squeeze the turn back loops down to almost 054 circles.  I had to flip the staging yard to make the tight 042 curve, but it turned out pretty good.  I have a steady 2.6% grade through the switches on the passing siding.  I was not able to include the branch line I added for the Shay, or it would make for not enough aisle space at the top.  Overall, I think it turned out pretty good.

Nice revisions Mark. Maybe the shay could run on a separate spur line on top of the bookshelves.  . Just an idea to keep that beautiful shay at work!

JD, That is a good suggestion!!!  A really good suggestion!! 

I'll give that a good look over!!  Thank you!!

An apparent setback turned into a feature!

Mark, I cleaned it up, added the spur, replaced some of the flex with cut sectional tracks and redid the grades, hope you don't mind. I didn't raise the spur or add the percentages, but I'll do that tomorrow, I still want to play with the bottom at 0".

Dave, Thank you!!  I was just now going to go back to the computer and add the sour JD suggested.  I certainly don’t mind anything you want to do on it.

Farmer_Bill posted:

An apparent setback turned into a feature!

 

A Feature is correct, Bill!  Thank you!

Mark, I really like your new layout.  What height did you go with, on the Mianne Benchwork?

Mark, I like the new plan as it leaves the window area open, plus some days your going to want to be able to look out the window to see all that wonderful SNOW! LOL

You have planned well, and the two days of reflection after making changes is an excellent idea.  

Your personal record has been awarded ten merits for careful, long-term, planning in the construction of a model railroad.

JD2035RR posted:

Nice revisions Mark. Maybe the shay could run on a separate spur line on top of the bookshelves.  . Just an idea to keep that beautiful shay at work!

        definitely a GREAT idea JD

                               throw in a couple switch backs...

                                  and keep the shay busy on the hillside...

Richard, Thank you.  I picked the 40-inch legs.  I like higher layouts.  That would make the 0 level about 42” and the highest track about 50”.  I have had layouts that high before 

Mike, You are right,  those windows give a back view of the shrubs.  The ground level is only about 4 inches below the window sills.

Tom, Thank you!  I think I’m doing good in the fact of getting started and seeing the flaws of the initial plan 

Brian, That does leave 12 feet of shelf that is already there.  I can’t go too high, but one switchback like the first photograph of Cass would work.

I know this isn't right, but I wanted to show how much space would be needed and how it defeats the purpose of reconfiguring the layout to begin with. One might work, but I'm not sure it's worth it.

Dave, Why is it I always think I can do something big in a small space?  LOL. Maybe it is because I still think in a smaller scale!

 Thank you for bringing me back to the reality of space and time!!  I’m ready to concentrate on the main plan and not worry about a branch line.  Right now the Shay is splitting time between the Ceiling Central Railroad and test running on the first try of the Blackwater Canyon Line still in the little room.

 Thank you!

Not sure of the reality of your spacing, but going to throw this out there as food for thought.  There could be a Y coming down out of Thomas that would take you on the Chaffee branch. From what I read, and as you eluded to, the Chaffee branch was very steep, up to 9% grades and very sharp curves so a smaller radius curve would be prototypical to get you turned around to the bookshelf/Chaffee branch.  You could then also connect to the incline going down to Parsons.   

WOW some great ideas floating around on this thread! 

Jim

Mark, here are some more changes with grades marked, etc.

I added Chaffee at 18" elevation with an 8.9% grade. That may be too high for the Shay, but I figured go big to start.

I added the Wye with an O54 curve on the right side and O42 on the left. I don't know iof the Wye is worth it, but you can make that decision later.

Because of the Wye, the grade to Thomas at 8.5" is now 3.5%, but that can be reduced. I just didn't mess with it too much not knowing if you like the idea or not.

Parsons can easily be raised to 2" and grades adjusted accordingly. In fact, since this is hill country, Parsons could be raised to 3" and the grade to it from Elkins would still be under 2%.

I change all tracks to overpasses so you can see the separation better in 3D. I'll work on adding the landscape polygons and post an updated file later.

JD, You are correct about how steep the Chaffee Branch was.  There were switchbacks, but as Dave points out they are impractical for the space.  The Shay can handle 042 curves as MTH advertised, but the drive gear look better on 054.  I have tested it out on both.  I think it is a good idea to ponder while I start building the main portion of the layout.  The mainline should probably level out to put in a wye, but I can work that out if I decide to do that.  In the meantime, I'll just plan on a steady grade.  I wouldn't get to building a branchline this year or next year for that matter.  

That said, I had been planning to start building on the shelves on the left side of the plan and the stacked loops because I wanted to make sure I got the two levels in place between the height of the book case and below the height of the window sills.  Now, that doesn't mater so much, so I think I will start on the wall at the bottom of the plan.  As Dave said he was going to try to get the mainline at level 0" along that portion to the Parsons curve.  I wouldn't have to have the height and grade set on the back, higher portion of the mainline at first.

I have some 042 curved GarGraves track I don't need, but will have to buy a lot of 054.  I am fine with making slight bends on GarGraves flex track.  I am not interested in bending flex track to that precise diameter.  I tried all that out on the Ceiling Central Railroad.

Jim, you are right.  I am very thankful to everyone who presents an idea!!

Dave,  Your assumptions on grades are just what I was thinking.  The grades will be a moving target even as I am building it.  Just so I leave enough overhead room between the lower and upper levels.  Now that I moved the layout away from the windows, I would have access all around that section and could cover what I want hidden with a removable fascia of some sort.  You did the wye as I just replied in response to JD's last comment.  I only have to decide when it comes time to layout the grade at that curve where the wye is whether to do it or not.  

The slight grade from Elkins to Parsons is quite acceptable.  In reality, it goes up at a slight grade from both towns to a low summit in between.  I don't have the room for that, so this is quite acceptable.  Besides, I am only looking to give a semblance to the real places with a keynote scenic feature here and there.  Otherwise, I hope to make it a generic West Virginia.

I still plan to have the Town of Thomas on a hill so that what is to the left and top of the drawing will have buildings at a higher level than the right and bottom.  It will be like looking up the hill when standing in the middle of the layout, but looking down into the valley when standing at the upper left.

It looks great!  Thank you!

Mark, bear in mind that you only need as much space under the upper level as your tallest rolling stock plus decking and roadbed. That probably means less than 7". Right now part of the lower level will be exposed and the rest can be covered with a removable tunnel side. Also, the midsection of the upper level can be removable, so you can reach everything with the reduced clearance.

Be that as it may, try this on for size. Note the lower level is mostly exposed in this rendition, except for the spur. Also note that I added a short piece to the yard because the top set of tracks will not clear the engine house as it was.

The biggest change that I think should be made is doing away with the Wye. I see the Shay going from Elkins to Parsons and Thomas before Chaffee. Then, since the Shay will have to back down from Chaffee anyway, it can back into the Thomas loop and then pull out to go back to Elkins. It saves having to buy 2 switches and reduces the grades. It also makes for a longer run,  but I don't know the area you're modeling, so I don't know if that route makes sense or not. It also means you can invest in the wye switch and just have it simulate going to Chaffee though a fake tunnel if you decide not to add the spur. What say you?

DoubleDAZ posted:

Mark, bear in mind that you only need as much space under the upper level as your tallest rolling stock plus decking and roadbed. That probably means less than 7". Right now part of the lower level will be exposed and the rest can be covered with a removable tunnel side. Also, the midsection of the upper level can be removable, so you can reach everything with the reduced clearance. 

If you plan to use tunnel portals, you may want to take their actual dimensions into account when determining the height of the second level.  These woodland scenic portals are 9 inches tall.  They may look funny if your second level is at 7 inches.  Granted you can cut the bottoms of the legs to a certain extent, but then the portal starts crowding the train. 

How do I know? On my second level of my postwar style layout, I only went to the height of 5 inches - same as the trestle set, bridge rock piers, etc.  Without thinking about it, I ordered some portals and they rise up well over the top of the second level.  woops! haha

Description

Tunnel Portals are built at the entrances to tunnels. They hold back rocks and dirt from tunnel entrances and are often used in combination with Retaining Walls. Easy to color with Earth Colors™ Liquid Pigment.

Meets NMRA specifications.

Outside: 8 3/8" w x 9" h (21.2 cm x 22.8 cm)
Inside: 4 1/4" w x 6 1/4" h (10.7 cm x 15.8 cm)

Good point to consider JD.

I have a question.  How many main line engines can you run at the same time with this plan?  I get confused following some of the track.

TheDude23112 posted:

I have a question.  How many main line engines can you run at the same time with this plan?  I get confused following some of the track.

 

Curious as well... its basically a single track with reverse loops on either end (they're stacked at Thomas) and there's a passing siding. 

Maybe this will help, this is the mainline. I can see running 3, but it will require stopping 1 on the main by the passing siding as the 2nd pulls out and the 3rd pulls in. This is probably not prototypical though, so realistically only 2. However, if the passing siding were expanded like this, it could hold 2 trains if they were small enough. Theoretically, 2 small trains could also fit in each loop, so 5 could be run, but it would take some coordination. And my experience watching trains along I-10 and I-40 says that kind of coordination is used all the time, though not with reversing loops, just with multiple passing sidings along the routes.

And, if you change the upper level to something like this, there would still be a reversing loop, it would be easier to run more trains and also make the grade easier with only one switch on the grade, though the 2nd switch could still be included for the passing siding.

Where is the Blackwater Canyon ??

Dave, I like the idea of using the one switch for the Chaffee branch as you showed in the last SCARM file ...12-24b...  You are right, I could put the switch in while building the mainline and make it look like it goes off into the trees until or if I put in the Chaffee Branch.

JD, Excellent point that could easily be forgotten!!  Thank you for all the detail and photograph.  I don’t know that I will even use portals.  The intent is to hide the lower turn around track I am naming Elkins with buildings, trees, or rocks.  Since I am using this simply as a way to turn a train, I want the train to just disappear from view.  I will have to work that all out as I go.  The portals on the SCARM drawings have just been arbitrary to tell SCARM that the track is hidden under the other.  So, I think Dave’s comment of 7” or less works in this case; the smaller the opening, the better.

TheDude and ATANZ,   Good question!  Thank you both for bringing it up.  I have not discussed how many trains for a long time.  I deserves mention again with the revised plan, since it’s been a year since we talked about one or two passing sidings. Dave has a good handle on it.  I will be operating alone for the most part, but want to make provision for a second operator.  Operating more than one train on the same track by myself is too nerve wracking, but I have never had a mainline this long.  So, my intent was one train could pull into the passing siding while a second passes.  I think I would only want one running while I am making a new train in the visible staging/fiddle yard.  By the way, the yellow rectangle represents a slot of yet to be determined length that I could drop in cassettes of so many cars that I would keep on shelves under the layout.  I plan to run detailed scale cars and my arthritis is bad enough, I fumble around a lot.  This should lessen damage to cars.  It is something I have never tried before, but plan to try it out early on in construction to see how it works.  So, two trains running and one being assembled in the yard is the most I had planned.

Dave, you are right, two short trains could fit in the longer siding.  Then that is an interesting idea to extend the passing siding into the turnback loop for extra trains as in the last drawing.  That may be something to play around with while building.  

Right now I have 5 engines.  F3 set, BL2, 0-4-0, 2-8-0, and the Shay.  Of course since I hope to have this layout a number of years, that number may increase. Did I say, may??  LOL

Jim, The Blackwater Canyon, also called the Black Fork Grade is in Northern West Virginia near Blackwater Falls, Canaan Valley.  It is south of Cumberland and Frostberg, Maryland.  Thomas, WV is at the top of the grade and Parsons is at the bottom.  The Black Fork is a tributary of the Cheat River which flows into the Youghiogheny R.

Mark, if you use the single switch to Chaffee, it won’t have to be a wye switch.

My comment about height clearance assumed you were going to make your own portals because JD is right, commercial portals are tall. The important measurements are the inside dimensions.

I had forgotten about the cassette idea, so disregard my comment about the engine house. Make sure the cassettes have a way to keep the cars from tipping, some kind of cover made from foam or something like what we use in camera cases for extra bodies and lenses.

 I did an early version dogbone idea for both loops, but at the time I didn’t think about extending 1 loop further down. I like the idea more because I’m trying to minimize the need for flex track. I’d like to reduce the need for curved switches too, but they seem to work where they are and I know you won’t be racing.

The other reason I like the single switch for the extended loop is because I have some concern about turning into the switch going down. If there is going to be a problem with a switch on the grade, I think that’s where it will be.

I’ll try to do some more fiddling with the goal of getting more track and Parsons to 0” elevation. I don’t like the idea of having almost all track on grades.

Dave, I haven't thought a lot about the cassettes, but I did at least think that I need sides and ends so nothing rolls out and there needs to be padding.  I also thought of using two handles that would go around the width for stability when moving and be able to slip off once in place.  I will do the testing with inexpensive cars.  I don't know what I'll make the handles of, but that's good enough for now.

You are right, I wouldn't need a wye switch for the branch with only one switch.  No, I won't be racing for sure!  I usually run in the teens or low 20s mph as shown on the DCS remote.  You do have a point about turning into a switch going down.  Thank you for pursuing the idea of the extended loop.

I agree with you about trying to get more level track.  First of all, it is easier to build, but also we are used to seeing railroad track that usually looks flat even if it has slight ups and downs.  Whenever you get the chance.  There is no rush on my part.  Today, I moved my sections of benchwork as close as I could get into place.  I don't know if anyone has noticed, but there is a fireplace with raised hearth on the long brick wall at about the place we have the upper portion of the passing siding.  I will have to cut one leg off 11" from the bottom and that leg can rest on the hearth.  No worry, the house is 51 years old, and the fireplace has never been used.  It is really a very bland looking fireplace, so we won't mind covering it with the layout.  Oh, the top of the opening comes right to the bottom of the Mianne cross members, so It can be accessed if need be.  (Accessed by a younger man than me is my idea) 

Thank you!!

               hello Mark...

          thought you might like this....

                           Railfanning Western Maryland Blackwater Canyon...

                 https://youtu.be/sXyoAnmhxDM

Brian, Bob Helm in HO!  Superb, isn't it!!  Thank you for posting the link!  I would never have the space in HO to do what he has done.

The culvert at the beginning is over Tub Run.  I plan to do that scene on the curve starting up hill out of Parsons.  At the top, he is building the mining town of Douglas which I will exclude.  It is just downhill from Thomas.  His mid train and end of train H9 helpers are great!  The WM would figure one engine for every 10 loaded 55-ton hoppers!  Wow! The train pulled by the RS3s isn't shabby either.  I love the sound of ALCos.  I have seen some photographs of his layout, and know it is a work in progress.  I do not know if he is going to leave the hillsides treeless so you can see the trains or if he plans to plant more trees as the prototype.  Thank you again!!

Mark, I did some work on the version with the expanded Elkins and was able to eliminate all the flex, at the expense of cutting sectional tracks. I also reduced the run between Elkins/Parsons to 0" elevation with the grade up to Thomas now at 2.7%. As you can see, I left the passing siding switches off to the side because SCARM won't let me add them to the grade. However, they fit right in where the straight pieces are, so everything lines up and it should be no problem to swap them in during the build. The same changes can be made to the version with the hidden Elkins, but now that you moved the loops, do you really want to hide all of Elkins? To be fair, even with the outer loop being showing, I'm not quite sure how you plan to landscape to make things look like there's a town there.  Next I'll work on removing the upper switches to extend the loop down the grade.

And here's the original Elkins.

Dave, I finally made drawings of what I intend for scenery at Thomas.  You can see why I hadn't before, since it took a few attempts to get them to look this good (relatively speaking)  But first, the photographs of the real town.  The town is built on a hillside with the railroad at the bottom of the hill.  Front Street has no buildings between it and the railroad.  The street and buildings look much the same today with a variety of shops.  The next street up the hill is high enough that on side faces the backside 2nd or 3rd floors of the buildings on Front Street.  Since there are only buildings facing one side of each street, I think I can get a couple of streets and rows of buildings in my small space.

This is assuming the Upper level (Thomas) 8" above the 0" level (Elkins turnback).  I'm guessing Front street will be at about 13" high to give 5" of clearance above the track.  I'm showing a bridge at the lower left  in the bottom photograph, but really I hope to just use a building as view block.  The right end of Front Street doesn't continue on, you have to turn up the hill.  Then I showed the second street at 17" with buildings on that level.  So I will be covering half of the upper level turn back loop with buildings. I hope this makes sense.

So the Elkins loop will be under all of that.  My initial thought was to hide it, or place it right underneath and sides can be open in the fascia so I can keep track.  Your idea of projecting it out beyond so the top of the train can be visible for part of the loop is something I hadn't considered, but it would make it easier re-railing derailments for one.  It is a good idea.  I do not know if it would have a negative effect on my Thomas town scene.  Maybe I could do it, and make a removable Black Fork over top of it as you can see in the second photograph.  I wonder if that's been done before.

Both plans are intriguing.  I would lose a little aisle space in the second, but not much.  I do think the elongated loop to passing siding is an idea to consider.  Thank you again.

Mark, that is going to be an wonderful looking section on your layout! I have been watching as you been planning and all the changes that have been made. I have remained silent as not to clutter the thought process, But I think Dave is right about making the train visible would give it that extra POW factor! 

Either way I think its a strong plan and will make a great layout either way!

Best of Luck!

Mike, feel free to make a comment at any time!  Yes, the visibility of a train on the lower loop and one on the upper loop certainly would be a great looking scene!  I attest my thinking of what did the prototype look like stems back from too many years of reading HO and N publications where fidelity to the prototype has increased in popularity over the years.  Sure, free lanced layouts still abound, but I had tried to be closer to the prototype and found it confining.

It has been 7 years since I went 3-rail, and my layout should reflect what that has to offer.  Both tracks in view for part of the curves is just that.

 Looking at it again, I am liking the loop extending into the passing siding.  That too offers more possibilities.  I am coordinated enough to run two short, slow trains on the same track, so this would help.  I’m thinking of driving to York last April, and going down the Allegheny Mountain on US 22, with snow on the ground and no leaves out yet seeing two Norfolk Southern trains one right after the other slogging it up to Cresson from the Horseshoe Curve!  Pretty impressive!

I think that whatever you do is going to be great! I to know that in prototype there are restrictions on what you can do on a layout, but remember this is your world and its spose to be fun!

We see quite a few trains one after the other as we drive along I-40 and I-10, mostly through New Mexico where there aren't a lot of places trains need to stop. There are also several places where there are dual mains leading to a single main with passing sidings along the single. The only thing not prototypical is the loop, but that just replaces a more prototypical terminal yard where new consists would be assembled and that is simply due to space limitations.

I was going to add some buildings to Thomas (and still will), but got sidetracked trying to deal with your hesitancy about the single switch further down the grade. I like to spend your money , so I added a crossover up where the other passing siding switch was and then I saw the other possibilities this gives you more operational variety. With the crossover added, trains can come and go in both directions on either track making Thomas look more like a through town.

I also noticed the size of the yard could be increased, so I moved the switches around a bit to do that. I also resized the cassette to accommodate a pair of 37" tracks, though I'm not sure how large your storage system will be. I would think it would be long enough for each track to hold at least 2, maybe 3, of your longest cars and that should hold your largest steamer/tender. I even added a 3D version of my idea for the cassette with sides that would be as tall as your lowest car and hooks for elastic bands that would then go over the cars to hold them in place while moving. There would also be bands on the ends for safety. I can envision a more elaborate system where the cassette would be dropped in place and everything but the base/tracks/cars released with simple turns of 1 or 2 knobs. I know you're a long way from building this, but I like to offer ideas when I think of them.

Note: The photo shows the switches in place, but the file has them off to the side. It also shows the cassette, but the file has that on a separate layer so it can be turned off.

Mark, isn't that Mianne Kit wonderful? I really enjoyed setting mine up. I special ordered a 48" height and am so glad that I did. Keeps the cats and rug rats at bay.

-- Dr Joe

Mike, You are so right.  It is my layout and whatever suits me best and is most fun is the correct way to do it.

Dave, The crossover is a good idea, and you are right there would be a lot of action both directions in Thomas.  I am thinking I like the lower Elkins loop in view more for the added effect of trains, just as the crossover adds possibilities.  I am not one who enjoys a lot of switching, but like to watch trains.  So I can envision without these ideas, it could get a bit boring.  Lets go with the crossover and the Elkins tracks in view for part of the loop as practical.  Trains going in and out of view is interesting too.  I like your rendering of the cassette.  The elastic bands is a good idea to make things stable.  I can be very clumsy anymore.

Dr. Joe, I was sad I didn't have more Mianne benchwork to put together, it went so fast.  But, I need to clean out some things here in this room before progressing anyway.  The last couple days I spent time taking the buildings etc off the Christmas layout in one daughter's abandoned bedroom.  Some of what is in the new train room will go up there for my wife's use.  I just can't lift very much until I see the back doctor Wednesday, so I haven't been in a hurry.  Dr. Mike G. told me to not overdo it so I am trying to be compliant!  

There isn't much available when it comes to buildings, etc., so I put together what little I could for both Thomas and Parsons. 

I'll work on the version with part of Elkins visible.

Dave, That is an enhancement just with the buildings Mixey has available.  They give a sense of size and how many buildings can fit in a small area; that is all I think we are really after.  I bought a couple neat buildings that I later sold once I started on the original layout in the little room.  That is one thing I overestimate since I still think in HO sizes.  It is getting to look like a railroad fur sure!!  A rather sophisticated layout at that.  I need to get the rest of that Christmas stuff put away so I can get started!  

I fiddled with Elkins, but I'm not sure if you prefer to encroach on the bookcase side or the main open area side, so I did both.

The first version encroaches on the bookcase side while the second encroaches on the open side and shrinks Thomas a bit to allow for a faux storefront along the visible part of Elkins. Even without shrinking Thomas the advantage to the second approach is Elkins will be more visible from the open area vs the bookcase.

Oh my Goodness, Dave!!!  You just opened up a whole new world!!  I never thought of it, but I could actually replicate the wonderful Elkins Depot even if it is just a flat!!  I have 60' MTH models of 4 of those very cars too!!!  The second choice!  I don't even have to think about it!!!  Thank you!!!!

As always, my pleasure, Mark. Moving Thomas/Elkins gives access all around and opened up the possibilities. I’m going to put the switches back in place and post one final version. Then I’ll stop unless you need me to check/try something. Like if you give me the footprint measurements of the buildings, I can create rectangles to see what will fit where before you settle on this version of Thomas.

Dave, your the man! Just always helping people out! You have done a great job on Marks Layout plan, just like you did with mine! I wish I could grasp it faster, just not me. I can build almost anything I see but computer and electrical stuff kill me! LOL

Dave, that sounds like a good plan!  I have some buildings, most of which I want to put in Parsons.  It is a very different looking town; more wide open and nearly in a floodplain of the confluence of Black Fork and Shavers Fork.  I’ll check on Thomas buildings.  Thank you again!

I set up some OSB on top of the Mianne benchwork at about the right measurements as in the latest plan.  I factored in 6" from the edge of the tracks to the edge of the table to accommodate a bit of scenery and catch train derailments.   My sails were deflated, or better yet my boiler ran out of steam.  If I build with the extended lower level for a little bit of buildings or even not extended lower level with 054 curves, I won't be able to move the upright piano out of the room when the time comes.  The track on Homasote in these two photographs is the 042 track from the layout I started in the little room.

I tried to line up the edge of the wall, but the photograph doesn't show it right.  There is less room between the track edge and the doorway than the photograph really shows.   Annie is in the shadow at the bottom of the photograph shaking her head in disapproval.  

So I went back to the drawing board again.  I made the two loops 042, like they were originally when I thought I could get by with the benchwork up against the built in shelves.  I actually think I got layers right this go round.  So I came up with this.  I added the SCARM file too.

My H9 Consolidation and Shay both run fine on the 042 curve, as do my 60' passenger cars.  So, I really don't need 054 curves.  I took down the 054 loop before taking the photographs.  It was even more obvious that it took too much room. 

Someone may say, "Move the piano out now."  Well, I can't until later this year when we learn whether our older daughter and her husband can really afford to buy my parents' house and acreage.  That would be when they have room to take it.  It is probably just as well.  This forces me to keep that space open for traffic.  If I use part of the walkway for layout, surely I will need to move something through at some time or other, even if it is my wheelchair so I can still operate the layout someday!  

On a slightly different note, I mentioned on another topic I received a very slight windfall which my wife told me to use for the layout.  So I took it to the bank this morning, and now have a few dollars to use for this first stage of the layout development. 

Mark money always helps!  I got a few dollars back from Uncle Sam.   So I spent a little on trains!!!   The rest will stay in the bank......  Until there is something else I need.   Like some turnouts!! LOL

Jim

Jim, Usually what I need is new brakes, or tires, or fuel pump, or shocks, or washing machine, or.....

Or pay Uncle Sam.  

Mark- Good news- $$$$$$-  bad news- not enough space . At least you saw it now and not later....unlike the guy who built a boat in his basement and couldn't fit it out the door. No chance the piano can go out the back door through the old train room? I guess you thought of that already.

Bob

Bob, Thank you.  You are right I already thought of it 

At least, you are making progress.  That's a good thing.

Here is a photograph held up high that shows how I laid out the 042 track over the full sized printout from a portion of the plan.  I will make the best of it.  The curve diameter will be the same as the layout I started building in the little room.  Along the edges, it shows how much more room the 054 would take.   That just takes up too much from the aisles.

That’s a good illustration of how much space these loops really take up. I read a lot of guys using 072+ as a minimum.  It’s surprising how much space that really is. Keep up the good work and keep the updates coming!

Yes for sure.  Thank you, JD

I reported in my progress a few times on the "What did you do on your layout today" topic.  Here is a summary.  I glued down and sanded cork roadbed.  Before laying track I spray painted the cork with Rustoleum American Accents Stone Gray Stone spray paint.  I saw another Forum member write about this, so it is not my idea.  I like to put in most of my scenery before ballasting.  I think it is very passable in the meantime for ballasted track.  Who knows, maybe I will never actually ballast the track.  I don't like ballasting.

Here is what the second section i did looks like.  I must caution you that little hard particles will float around and get on everything within a couple feet.  They can be scraped off without damage, but if my wife had noticed them on a couple items in the room, she wouldn't have been happy.

Thinking of a recent discussion on track screws on the  "What did you do on your layout today" topic, I decided I was going t get #4 flathead screws and countersink.  I stopped at C. T. McCormick Hardware a couple weeks ago to pick up the Ross curved switch I needed, and Jeff showed me these #4 screws he stocks especially for what I wanted to do.  They are already black.  Hooray!  No daubing on paint and risking filling the x slot in the head.

So the next two photographs show how it looks right now.  I have gaps and power drops installed where I think they will be appropriate.  I then ran some temporary wire across the floor from the other room where the Z4000 and TIU now reside.  I clipped onto each drop to check that an engine could run okay.  I didn't do anymore wiring because I plan to locate the TIU on the yet to be built benchwork in the middle of the layout.  That will be the next phase of benchwork.

Here is how the flathead screws look.

Monday, I placed an order for the second load of Mianne Benchwork that will take care of most of the length of the layout along the brick wall.

Thank you for taking a look.

Mark, looks like you have a great start! I like the paint idea! What did you do to clean the top of the rails? I might have to give that a try!

Very nice touch, Mark. The gray gives it a bit of a Fastrack look Huh. That makes me wonder what a coat of that gray texture paint would look like on the decking under Fastrack. That might look real good in my yard/town switching area. All I'd have to do is.....lift all the trackwork......and then fill and sand the benchwork....and then......Hmmmm.

Lew

Great work, Mark - the flat-head screws look like a good match for the track and should be almost invisible when it's done.

Mark Boyce posted:

I reported in my progress a few times on the "What did you do on your layout today" topic.  Here is a summary.  I glued down and sanded cork roadbed.  Before laying track I spray painted the cork with Rustoleum American Accents Stone Gray Stone spray paint.  I saw another Forum member write about this, so it is not my idea.  I like to put in most of my scenery before ballasting.  I think it is very passable in the meantime for ballasted track.  Who knows, maybe I will never actually ballast the track.  I don't like ballasting.

Here is what the second section i did looks like.  I must caution you that little hard particles will float around and get on everything within a couple feet.  They can be scraped off without damage, but if my wife had noticed them on a couple items in the room, she wouldn't have been happy.

Thinking of a recent discussion on track screws on the  "What did you do on your layout today" topic, I decided I was going t get #4 flathead screws and countersink.  I stopped at C. T. McCormick Hardware a couple weeks ago to pick up the Ross curved switch I needed, and Jeff showed me these #4 screws he stocks especially for what I wanted to do.  They are already black.  Hooray!  No daubing on paint and risking filling the x slot in the head.

So the next two photographs show how it looks right now.  I have gaps and power drops installed where I think they will be appropriate.  I then ran some temporary wire across the floor from the other room where the Z4000 and TIU now reside.  I clipped onto each drop to check that an engine could run okay.  I didn't do anymore wiring because I plan to locate the TIU on the yet to be built benchwork in the middle of the layout.  That will be the next phase of benchwork.

Here is how the flathead screws look.

 

Monday, I placed an order for the second load of Mianne Benchwork that will take care of most of the length of the layout along the brick wall.

Thank you for taking a look.

Mark, I'm new here and this is my 1st post.  So, in the picture with the screws (which I like b-t-w, what's in between the rails - is that a power lock on or something. I'm not familiar w this track.

Tom

Mike, Thank you.  I use a ScotchBright to clean the tops of the rails.

Lew, Just be careful where you spray the texture paint.  I suppose it would be best to have an exhaust fan or do it outdoors.  Neither option was available on the roadbed.  I need to figure something out before I do that again.

Richie, Thank you.  Yes, I like the flatheads.  Oh another thing.  I did not use any glue on the track.  I want to be able to lift it up very easily if I need to.  Also, I always leave the switches float-no screws so the mechanism can work well.  I learned that from a Kalmbach publication back in my HO days.

TomSuperO posted:

Mark Boyce posted:

 

Here is how the flathead screws look.

 

Mark, I'm new here and this is my 1st post.  So, in the picture with the screws (which I like b-t-w, what's in between the rails - is that a power lock on or something. I'm not familiar w this track.

Tom

Tom, Welcome to the Forum!!!  I'm glad you are here.

I hate soldering wire to rail.  I was trained as an electronics technician back in the mid '70s, and have soldered off and on for years, but I still hate it.  Most of my career, we used crimp-on lugs for wire connections to terminals, or punch down blocks in telecom.  Still occasionally I need to connect a wire to something rather flat.  Now it has been described elsewhere on this forum how to drill holes into the rail and connect wire to that with a screw, but I didn't want to try that.

I decided after 50 years in the hobby and 43 years in electronics, I would cheat so to speak.    I bought GarGraves track pins with wire pigtails already soldered on.  GarGraves #930W-12 and #930B-24

So I drilled holes through the table top and poked the wires through.  They are really soldered well.  However, in one place I didn't have a hole lined up well.  I really did put a lot of force on it to jam the wire into a bend and broke a solder joint. "If it don't fit, force it!"   I really don't think they will break under normal use.  

Hi Mark

 Nice to see the progress!

 With respect to your corner issue try adding a few O54 transition sections before going 042.

   You will get a nice gradual curve.

 I was also thinking alternate between 054/042 on the circle.

 Maybe experiment with it to see if that fits into your plan. It breaks up the symmetry and makes it a little more realistic imho

Al

Al, Thank you very much for the reply.  I am planning to do that on the other end where the track will loop around Parsons.  I have some 054 here for the mainline in the corner, but am stuck with 042 on the closer track that goes to the yard and the big turnback that is almost a circle I think.  A lot of the track will be covered with the hillside town of Thomas, so I am hoping that helps break it up.  It is amazing how space gets used up so fast!  

Mark it all looks good!  Now I know what I see those gaps in the track!  Thanks for posting that!  Did you hook any power to it yet?

Jim

Looking good, Mark.  I like that paint!

Jim, Thank you. I only clipped jumpers onto each track section to see if I had continuity and if an engine ran smoothly, then moved the clips jumpers to the next section and did it on each section.  I have not run any wires other than the pigtails.  The TIU and main terminals will be on the section of benchwork I haven't built yet.

Mike, Thank you!

OH, those are pretty cool. I'll have to look them up. maybe get a few and try them on our test layout.  We know we will be doing our layout in SuperO.  The connecting pins (outside rails) are straight flat copper pins, so these are kind of similar.  The pwr buss connector is also copper but diff config.  We may be able to apply your style connectors for gnd connectors on our outside rails (for same purpose - to reduce soldering).  Ctr pwr connectors may require a diff solution.

Also, yes, wider radius curves do eat up the space don't they.  For our layout, we've tried to design-in the largest curves wherever we can. So its a mix of 042's, 048, 054, 060, 072 - mostly in the 054 size. Wherever possible I did try to use easements coming into and out of a turn - but it wasn't always possible. 

I like your spray paint too.  we'll try that as well on the test layout too.  Planning on using homosote as roadbed.  Did back in the 90's. Liked it.

So many trains, so little time,

Tom   

Looks good Mark! I’m glad to see your progress. I know how you feel about ballasting; I’m still traumatized 

Andy

Mark,

Called my son & said we can get bigger curves if we put in a jack post and move the wall out a bit.  It's only a framed 2x4 wall right now so it would be easier to do. Sure it's load bearing but we can work around that.   

Hello, hello...   I think we got cut off

Tom, Thank you.  I used Homasote with cork to build up a roadbed back in my HO days, so figured I would do the same in O gauge.  I've been in O since 2012, but this is the first I am really building benchwork and realistic scenery like in HO.  I got all this old Homasote from in my mother-in-law's basement.  The lady she bought from was a seamstress and had a 4 x 10 sheet of Homasote on top of her work table.  The whole thing was measured off in 1" apart parallel lines.  There were lots of pinholes in it, but I only found one pin jabbed in sideways.  I got the O gauge cork from a local Forum member.  Met him at the Sheetz convenience store a mile away.

I don't know why Super O didn't stick on the market.  The track looks great!!  I'll be glad to see what you are doing someday.

Mark Boyce posted:

I reported in my progress a few times on the "What did you do on your layout today" topic.  Here is a summary.  I glued down and sanded cork roadbed.  Before laying track I spray painted the cork with Rustoleum American Accents Stone Gray Stone spray paint.  I saw another Forum member write about this, so it is not my idea.  I like to put in most of my scenery before ballasting.  I think it is very passable in the meantime for ballasted track.  Who knows, maybe I will never actually ballast the track.  I don't like ballasting.

Here is what the second section i did looks like.  I must caution you that little hard particles will float around and get on everything within a couple feet.  They can be scraped off without damage, but if my wife had noticed them on a couple items in the room, she wouldn't have been happy.

Thinking of a recent discussion on track screws on the  "What did you do on your layout today" topic, I decided I was going t get #4 flathead screws and countersink.  I stopped at C. T. McCormick Hardware a couple weeks ago to pick up the Ross curved switch I needed, and Jeff showed me these #4 screws he stocks especially for what I wanted to do.  They are already black.  Hooray!  No daubing on paint and risking filling the x slot in the head.

So the next two photographs show how it looks right now.  I have gaps and power drops installed where I think they will be appropriate.  I then ran some temporary wire across the floor from the other room where the Z4000 and TIU now reside.  I clipped onto each drop to check that an engine could run okay.  I didn't do anymore wiring because I plan to locate the TIU on the yet to be built benchwork in the middle of the layout.  That will be the next phase of benchwork.

Here is how the flathead screws look.

 

Monday, I placed an order for the second load of Mianne Benchwork that will take care of most of the length of the layout along the brick wall.

Thank you for taking a look.

Mark, I loved ! I think to make in my track-bed, but I bought a woodland ! 

Would it be all right?

I found this product in Brazil !!!

Fantastic !!

Andy, Thank you!  Yes, ballasting can be tedious, especially when the modeler is as picky as I am wanting straight edges on the ballast like on a mainline!  Ha ha!

Tom, Ar you there, are you there!  Call 911, I think the load fell on Tom!!    Well, if you are still in the process of putting in walls, you can make some adjustments.  There is a 15" bump out in the middle half of this room, which is the bathroom on the other side off the laundry.  As it is, the bathroom is too narrow, so it would have been nice if they had made it say 18" wider, but that would have interfered with the trains here.  The house is 51 years old, and I'll work around the shortcomings!

Leandro, Thank you.  So you have Woodland Scenics roadbed, which is a softer foam isn't it?  I would think paint would make it a little harder, but then when you put glue and ballast on it, that puts a hard surface on it too.  All I can think of is try some paint on a couple feet of the Woodland Scenics and see how it turns out.  That's great you found the Woodland Scenics in Brazil.  We take for granted what is available in the USA, but never know for sure how hard it is to get in any particular country.

Mark,  It was George who got me on here.  It's all his fault.  We were in scouts together in Weirton back in the day. Ran into him recently at a scout reunion & had no idea he was a train guy too.  Small world.   BTW, Parsons - aww man. You're taking me back.  Spent a whole lot of time throughout the early 70's backpacking ALL over WV and driving around all those little towns getting to a trailhead.  Places like Parsons, Petersburg, Marlington, elkins, etc  - before they built I79.

Mark Boyce posted:

Mike, Thank you.  I use a ScotchBright to clean the tops of the rails.

Lew, Just be careful where you spray the texture paint.  I suppose it would be best to have an exhaust fan or do it outdoors.  Neither option was available on the roadbed.  I need to figure something out before I do that again.

Richie, Thank you.  Yes, I like the flatheads.  Oh another thing.  I did not use any glue on the track.  I want to be able to lift it up very easily if I need to.  Also, I always leave the switches float-no screws so the mechanism can work well.  I learned that from a Kalmbach publication back in my HO days.

That's good advice for someone starting out, Mark - I did the same on my recently completed Fastrack layout - no track screws in any switch and only one screw every 5-6 sections to keep it from possibly moving around and go lightly when tightening the screws down - you don't want to crank them down really tight and deform the track.

Mark Boyce posted:

Leandro, Thank you.  So you have Woodland Scenics roadbed, which is a softer foam isn't it?  I would think paint would make it a little harder, but then when you put glue and ballast on it, that puts a hard surface on it too.  All I can think of is try some paint on a couple feet of the Woodland Scenics and see how it turns out.  That's great you found the Woodland Scenics in Brazil.  We take for granted what is available in the USA, but never know for sure how hard it is to get in any particular country.

Mark, Thanks !

But I found the Spray Stone Texture !

I will buy and I will test with roadbed ! 

Thanks

TomSuperO posted:

Mark,  It was George who got me on here.  It's all his fault.  We were in scouts together in Weirton back in the day. Ran into him recently at a scout reunion & had no idea he was a train guy too.  Small world.   BTW, Parsons - aww man. You're taking me back.  Spent a whole lot of time throughout the early 70's backpacking ALL over WV and driving around all those little towns getting to a trailhead.  Places like Parsons, Petersburg, Marlington, elkins, etc  - before they built I79.

Tom, That is great you ran into George at the reunion!!  So where do you live now?  

Yes, I've been to all those places.  No more hiking for me though, except the short easy trails.  I still find it hard to believe I climbed to the top of Seneca Rock way back!  1982, I believe.  The front side, not Heart Attack Hill in the back.  I worked at the Vepco Mount Storm Power Station for a while, but have been back in our native Butler County since '96.

Richie C. posted:

Mark Boyce posted:

Mike, Thank you.  I use a ScotchBright to clean the tops of the rails.

Lew, Just be careful where you spray the texture paint.  I suppose it would be best to have an exhaust fan or do it outdoors.  Neither option was available on the roadbed.  I need to figure something out before I do that again.

Richie, Thank you.  Yes, I like the flatheads.  Oh another thing.  I did not use any glue on the track.  I want to be able to lift it up very easily if I need to.  Also, I always leave the switches float-no screws so the mechanism can work well.  I learned that from a Kalmbach publication back in my HO days.

That's good advice for someone starting out, Mark - I did the same on my recently completed Fastrack layout - no track screws in any switch and only one screw every 5-6 sections to keep it from possibly moving around and go lightly when tightening the screws down - you don't want to crank them down really tight and deform the track.

In HO, you could nail down some track and bend the plastic ties so much you could tighten the gauge.  N scale is even easier to mess up.  I've done both.  

Leandro Garcia posted:

Mark Boyce posted:

Leandro, Thank you.  So you have Woodland Scenics roadbed, which is a softer foam isn't it?  I would think paint would make it a little harder, but then when you put glue and ballast on it, that puts a hard surface on it too.  All I can think of is try some paint on a couple feet of the Woodland Scenics and see how it turns out.  That's great you found the Woodland Scenics in Brazil.  We take for granted what is available in the USA, but never know for sure how hard it is to get in any particular country.

Mark, Thanks !

But I found the Spray Stone Texture !

I will buy and I will test with roadbed ! 

Thanks

That's it Leandro!  I had to mail order my second batch too because the local store was out and didn't know when they would reorder!  Use several light coatings as with regular spray paint.  It can gob up on your roadbed, and don't have anything nearby, or you can get little specks of the granules that are in the paint to give it the rough texture.

Happy railway construction !  Keep us posted    ….     Pat

Thank you, Pat!

Being an HO convert, finding those pin-tails ( ) must have been like finding a long lost friend. I didn't even notice them; I had to zoom. (hey, it let me post here! ..... maybe )

I've used the stone fleck  paint to good effect. Suggestion: Get a can of flat gray latex paint and paint the cork or whatever roadbed you are using first. Then after that dries, come back with the spray cans of stone fleck. You will find a can goes a LOT farther!

The shot below shows how it looks. The cork roadbed was glued down, and then the flat gray was painted on both the roadbed and the foam support. This also had the desired effect of sealing the foam against the solvent in the spray paint. Let it dry, then hit it with the fleck.  After  everything dries, install the track. I glued it to the roadbed with Liquid Nails.

Chris

LVHR

I haven't had a full set of tools here in a while, so I just read along fyi Marc. 

 You got lucky IMO. (Apply that to the above sentence or let it start what's written below )

Overspray with a slow dry paint is often "dangerous". It has to be a very fast flashing paint that will dry to dust before it can go far enough and stick. Otherwise, break out the giant plastic "Handi-wrap-tarp"(the cheap stuff, and if you let the paint dry fully without messing with it, much of the misting can then be soft paint brushed/shaken off, then the plastic rolled up or folded, and stored away for the next use. The number of uses varies as large spots will flake eventually. A no-no around new paints, first flakes show you toss it before shoes, air, and Murphy move flakes around.)

  Most of Rusty's products are a slow to medium handling cure time. (full cure on original Rusty is about a month imo, and even then a year or two later it is even harder to the touch.)

Mark,

It is great to follow your progress on your layout

You have always had positive comments on anyone’s efforts or questions raised on the forum, and to see your enthusiasm and results on your own build is fun for all of us

Keep up the great work and enjoy 

Jerry

jpc posted:

Mark,

It is great to follow your progress on your layout

You have always had positive comments on anyone’s efforts or questions raised on the forum, and to see your enthusiasm and results on your own build is fun for all of us

Keep up the great work and enjoy 

Jerry

 

Ditto!  I have really enjoyed watching this grow from an idea, a mighty oak from a tiny acorn

Butch and Chris, those are all great points about spraying the flecked paint.  I did see I used a lot of it and the base coat of gray will be just the ticket!  Chris, the track in your photograph looks great!!

Jerry, Thank you very much!!  I am excited, since this is the first I have been able to build a layout other than a temporary Christmas layout and my shelf Ceiling Central RR since our daughters were preschool.  They are 28 and 26 now.  

Pallalin, I really like they way you put it.  Yes, it has been an interesting journey these last two years.  I could never have come up with this plan without all the great Forum friends and all the great suggestions!

Mark Boyce posted:

TomSuperO posted:

Mark,  It was George who got me on here.  It's all his fault.  We were in scouts together in Weirton back in the day. Ran into him recently at a scout reunion & had no idea he was a train guy too.  Small world.   BTW, Parsons - aww man. You're taking me back.  Spent a whole lot of time throughout the early 70's backpacking ALL over WV and driving around all those little towns getting to a trailhead.  Places like Parsons, Petersburg, Marlington, elkins, etc  - before they built I79.

Tom, That is great you ran into George at the reunion!!  So where do you live now?  

Yes, I've been to all those places.  No more hiking for me though, except the short easy trails.  I still find it hard to believe I climbed to the top of Seneca Rock way back!  1982, I believe.  The front side, not Heart Attack Hill in the back.  I worked at the Vepco Mount Storm Power Station for a while, but have been back in our native Butler County since '96.

Mark,   We had a little reunion down at Olgebay Park in Wheeling WV. Guys came in from all over. Was a great time watching old movies of us as kids. My uncle was the scout master. I was born and raised in Steubenville Oh. Moved across the river to Weirton in 80 and returned to steub in 2016. The picture that was posted of the old fort steuben bridge brought back some memories. Crossed that a million times.  It was narrow.  Just downstream from the RR bridge George is modelling, is the market st bridge. It's still there in use and is painted blue and gold and lighted in blue at night (WV owns the bridge).  Can't miss it flying over it into pitt at night from pts south.  Many people don't know that it is the sister bridge to the one that collapsed in point pleasant Oh back in the day - from which the mothman movie was about.        Yeah, that's a nice hike up to Sceneca  Rocks.  Used to rock climb there in college. Read a book said " 1st rule of climbing - never climb higher than you're willing to fall" 

I quit.

Tom

Tom, Thank you for the reply!!  I am one who did not know the Market Street Bridge is a sister bridge to the Point Pleasant Bridge.  I did not see Mothman, but there was a lot of hoopla around here since they used the bridge in Kittanning for filming; about 25 miles from me in Butler.

Well, It's my topic, so I'm permitting we take a short trip off the tracks.  

I had done a little repelling at nearby McConnells Mill State Park, but no rock climbing as such.  I have a high school classmate, who I still see at church, who is into his 41st year now working as an outdoor experience leader for a college ministry organization.  One of the many times I was laid off was in '82 and I went on several outdoor trips with him as an extra chaperone.  He asked me about going to Seneca Rock, and I knew the place having stopped there to look at it and take some photographs a few years before.  I told him I had never climbed before, and he said that's okay, I could puttsy around at the bottom.  The first day, we called it quits in the rock field because of approaching inclement weather.  The second day was beautiful.  My friend didn't mention it, but after a while I realized I was going to the top!  That dirty dog!    I need to digitize some photographs, and the ones I took from the top will be some of the first.

I quit a long time ago! 

Hello Mark, the name of your railroad reminds me of a Blackwater River in the Republic of Ireland. I think the source is in County Limerick, flows through County Cork, and flows into the Atlantic Ocean in County Waterford. My wife and I went to a wedding over there in 2007; the wedding mass was outside of Mallow, Cork and the reception was in a hotel in County Limerick. A heavy rain storm came in during the night and caused massive flooding from top to bottom so that fields that were pastures became lakes and any roads just above river level became impassable parts of the river.

Keep up the good work!

Art,

That is neat you saw a Blackwater River in Ireland.  I looked it up on Wikipedia just to see where it is in the Republic of Ireland. 

The Blackwater or Munster Blackwater (Irish: An Abha Mhór, The Big River) is a river which flows through counties Kerry, Cork, and Waterford in Ireland. It rises in the Mullaghareirk Mountains in County Kerry and then flows in an easterly direction through County Cork, through Mallow and Fermoy. It then enters County Waterford where it flows through Lismore, before abruptly turning south at Cappoquin, and finally draining into the Celtic Sea at Youghal Harbour. In total, the Blackwater is 169 km (105 mi) long. The total catchment area of the River Blackwater is 3,324 km².^[2] The long term average flow rate of the River Blackwater is 89.1 Cubic Metres per second (m³/s)^[3]

Interestingly, there is another Blackwater River in Northern Ireland also. 

The River Blackwater or Ulster Blackwater is a river in County Armagh and County Tyrone, Northern Ireland. It also forms part of the border between the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland, flowing between counties Tyrone and Monaghan, intersecting into Monaghan briefly. Its source is to the north of Fivemiletown, County Tyrone. The river divides County Armagh from County Tyrone and also divides County Tyrone from County Monaghan.  

The Blackwater's length is 91.3 km (56.75 mi).^[2] If the Blackwater's flow is measured through its path through the 30 km (19 mi) Lough Neagh and onwards to the sea via the 64.4 km (40ml) Lower Bann, the total length is 186.3 km (115.75 mi). This makes the Blackwater–Neagh–Bann the longest natural stream flow in Ulster and is longer than the Munster Blackwater.

Thank you for the encouraging words!

I didn't get much done today except trying different mocked up heights for the upper turn-back loop.  I hope to work on it tomorrow because it I don't have any appointments, and they are forecasting rain and snow.  Hopefully I'll have some photographs then.

Come on Mark, if you did some mock up's then you did something! Don't cut yourself short!

Mike, You are absolutely correct!  Thank you for the encouragement!!

Well Mike, I did get time to build the top section today.  I could have asked Tim Foley to make custom second level, but thought for the small effort on my part, I would save some money not having him do custom work.  I am happy with the results.  

I had decided that the 1x4s I had on hand would make the top level too high if I left enough space to get my hands in to correct derailments.  I found some poplar at Lowes.  So I made the top frame out of 1x2 poplar and positioned it above the lower level with 2x2 poplar.  The small quantity I bought didn't cost that much.  I used some L-brackets to hold the 2x2 legs to the bottom level table.  There is one in the center also that I just cut to the correct size and uses carpenter's glue only.  I wasn't looking for structural strength, just something to keep the middle from sagging.

Here is the frame with temporary supports to check spacing.

Here it is with the 4 corner 2x2s fastened top and bottom.  Mike, Notice my low tech level that I am sure is older than I am.  

Here it is with the plywood top fastened down and the track is just sitting in place to give an idea of where it will go.  I need to buy another Ross curved 054/070 switch.  I have the switch for the siding.

Here is a better view of the BL-2 and the tallest boxcar I have.  The opening is 5-1/2" tall.  The overall climb will be 8".  I would have liked it to not be quite as much, but I need the 5-1/2" opening.  The prototype Blackwater grade was 3%, so this will be fitting.

Thank you for looking!!!

Looking good Mark. Enjoy following your progress.

Thank you, Dave!!  Yes, you had so much input in the plan, I’m sure you are happy to seeing it coming together!!

Mark, Looks great! your carpenter skills is wonderful! I think your on the right track! Don't worry about that old time level, a lot of time there better then any new wizbang level! I really think you have hit a home run with the second lever! Very nice work!

Thank you, Mike!!  I have a lot of old tools that were my dad’s and father-in-law’s.  This one was my father-in-law’s.  I’m leaving Dad’s in the house for my son-in-law when they move into the old homestead.

Mark, great thinking, a trip to Lowes, a little bit of time for construction and it is done. Did I miss a meeting? Has a new level been invented? All mine look like yours. I haven't heard of this new "wizbang" device Mike G. talks of.

Steve

It's great seeing your progress, Mark. Looking forward to the rest of the build. 

Mark, 1X2s are indeed your friend. With L-girders for a foundation I use them for joists, just lots of them. Good progress there in Butler 

Lew