Blackwater Canyon Line - October 14, 2024 - Town and Scratchbuild Planning

@Mark Boyce, Bird's eye view:

Hi All,

As you know, I’ve been fortunate enough to build a new 19x 25 foot train room. I’ve been trying to put together a track plan to build in stages, because I want to get trains running for my grandchildren ASAP(and because so big a layout is very daunting).

Attached is a track plan which is S Gauge and recently appeared in CTT on which I’d like the group’s thoughts and ideas

My current thought is replace the crossing at the top by elevating one part of the main over the other and completely revise the left side of the layout by taking that track and wrapping it around the current main and then extending it to the left into a loop and another yard.
All thoughts are welcome.
Thanks,

Rubin

John, Thank you for the video!  That's a great looking layout and a great looking room for it!!!

Rubin, I think you forgot to attach the track plan!  I would be glad to look at it and consider your thoughts on it for your wonderfully sized room!

Mark, here is the track plan to which I was referring. My thought is to take the outer loop and run it around the the front of the layout section on the right and then have switch form a “Y” off this loop to provide access to a yard and industrial area on the the left side. Since this layout is only 15 feet wide, I would actually have 4 more feet to work with.
All comments welcome.
Thanks,

Rubin

Rubin, I'm sorry to leave you hanging.  Since no one else has taken up your question here, I thought I would reply to you in an email.  I'll try to get that out to you tomorrow.  Thank you for your comments.

@RubinG posted:

Mark, here is the track plan to which I was referring. My thought is to take the outer loop and run it around the the front of the layout section on the right and then have switch form a “Y” off this loop to provide access to a yard and industrial area on the the left side. Since this layout is only 15 feet wide, I would actually have 4 more feet to work with.
All comments welcome.
Thanks,

Rubin

My 2 cents (worth every penny!)...

I saw that plan and like it - looks like a good combination of loop running and opportunity for switching / accessories.  The fact that you have a few extra feet of width should really help.

The biggest downside is the need to build 3 removable bridge sections (or deal with duckunders that seem to get lower each year).  Although we've seen some really great bridges, two of them in the plan are at an angle, making them more challenging to build.

Having trouble conceptualizing your proposed changes - might get more replies if you post a drawing.  Also, more people might see your questions if it's posted in the layout planning section of the forum.

Deciding to see how some of this modification to Jeff's plan would work, I laid out the siding and yard, the yard that would be under the lift off town.  That is the dark green tracks at the bottom of the first drawing.

Lower Level

Upper Level

This photograph shows the siding that comes off the lower loop with track sections fit in with a minimum of screws.  I reused two Ross #4 switches and bought another.  There is no power connected to track or switches.  I just moved cars with the old 0-5-0 switcher (by hand) to see how this works out.

This photograph shows the yard and two holding tracks again held in place with a minimum number of screws to see how it would work out.  The yard tracks hold fifteen 40' and 37' boxcars and reefers.  I can fit 5 more boxcars in front where it would be easy to move them by hand to where I want.  Twenty cars is a vast improvement!  Thank you Jeff for the ideas!!!

This photograph is just a view of the siding and yard area from the entrance to the room.

I think this arrangement will work out fine.  I will leave it sit a while to see how I like it.  Thank you for taking a look.

Mark, nice to see you laying track down for a "look see".  15 cars on a 2 track siding is not too bad in my book. I am spinning with ideas on TPRR2 and antsy to make some progress. Jeff

BTW if you wanted longer sidings you could slide the yard switch up a few sections if you could add a bit to the inside of the table. Of course then you could add a 3rd inner track for a run around for a switcher. 

Looks good Mark. This coming from the guy who pulled 2 027 switches to squeeze 3 031's to add a yard track. 🤣🤣

Bob

Congratulations Mark, you are making it work; and work well.

Jay

Looks Fantastic!!!

Bob

The progress continues. This is quite an improvement!

Looking great Mark. Operations soon enough, eh?

It's tough to find space to fit storage tracks without it looking like the were squeezed into the available space.  You did a good job maintaining track spacing which looks realistic.  While I'm sure you wished the tracks had space for 30 cars, 15 is a real good number for a mid-sized O-scale layout.

-Greg

Great Job Mark!!!!!

Hi Mark, It really gives you a nice place to store cars and be able to move them around as needed!  Looks good, I also like your idea of letting it sit for a while to make sure you like it!

Thank you, Jeff, Bob, Jay, Bob, Bill, Dave, Greg, John, Mike!

Bob, yes I recall your yard expansion project.  It worked out quite well for you.

Dave, since the new tracks aren't powered, I could still back an engine with a few cars in tow up to the yard tracks right now to make a long train to run around the lower loop.

Mike, I think I already like the idea, what matters with it is if I try to change things like Jeff suggested.  I'll go into the practicality of that below.

Jeff, You have a great idea.  Actually, I extended the table out into the aisle by 4" to install the switches and track off the lower loop.  I did it this way to not have to move the grade that goes up from right to left.  It is in a position where it could be used as is for the ramp closest to the aisle.

It would be easy to move the left hand part of the ramp back a few inches, because I built the layout in modules that can be moved by removing a section of track and removing a few screws underneath.  Here is an underneath shot of the ramp in question.  I used part of the old book case for this part.  It goes back only to the white part, which is a base for the Styrofoam I used starting some scenery last winter.  I could move it back 5 inches and fasten it down again.

That part is easy, the curve at the bottom end of the ramp is a little more complicated, but wouldn't be too hard.  Also, on the upper level, I would have to move the switch to the right a few inches, shortening the passing track some.  That won't matter since the passing track will be much longer past the big station and double track bridge.

That leads to the rear ramp that goes down from right to left.  The grade starts about where the Greyhound bus is in the photograph above.  I did the same thing with that ramp as the foreground ramp where I can cut remove a section of track and move that board closer by 5 inches to allow for the upper loop track to have room between the ramp and backdrop.

Here is the bottom of the grade where the curve would need moved forward as well to allow the upper loop to end up between it and the ramp track.

I haven't decided if I am going to do all of that, but at this point I think it would need to be done to make for more pleasing operation for me.

Mike, I didn't respond on the 'What did you do on your layout' thread about all the snow you have since I would be going off topic.  Here, I don't think they care.  You have gotten hammered with snow.  We have lucked out big time, since we only got a little when Erie and Buffalo got so much.  Other times, it has been just warm enough to be icy rain.  We will get ours sooner or later!!  I can stay in the train room, look out, and watch all the snow pile up in January and February!   

Mark, I like the experimentation. The benchwork is flexible to allow for quick changes either way. Your thought process is solid.

Andy

Thank you, Andy!  I did think of flexibility when building the benchwork, but because we plan to move to a different house either after my mother-in-law who lives across the road passes on or has to go to a care facility.  To move a 4-foot section to another house if I choose to do it, I tied together the flexible sections I showed before with perpendicular 2x4s to lift out a whole section, scenery and all.  Note, I didn’t have the right length screws when I did it, explaining the extra long screws.

Mark,

This is probably more fun for us to watch than you to make happen. Most of the battle is coming up with the plan and executing is the fun part IMO. I'm sure you will come up with just the right plan. Keep us posted.

Dave

Mark, I see a theme here. Seems like there is a lot of red rolling stock. Some silver, some green. Is Santa in his way?

Try not to get under the layout in the wrong position, not good if you bump something. Don't you have a device for underneath?

Thank you for your observations, Dave and Dave!

I like boxcar red; as is obvious.  😄  The yellow cars are billboard reefers, and the few other colors are inexpensive Menards cars that are of a few colors I remember.  I am not interested in fantasy cars, except I have 4 or 5 Christmas themed cars which are still packed away since I lost my space for a Christmas layout.  I don’t have any boxcars larger than 40-foot since I don’t like modern cars.  Besides, larger cars means fewer cars on a small layout.  🙁

Here is a photograph of the rolling seat I usually use.

I also have a padded garage creeper that can be adjusted to a seat about 4 inches off the floor with a tilted backrest.  I left it in the attic after getting out Christmas decorations.  Sitting on it, I still have to duck under the peak of the roof.  I hate that attic. 🤕 😄

Good deal Mark. I'm increasing my Atlas fleet of cars which I have only done recently. I think going forward that is probably what I'm going to do.

I still have not gotten to measuring out for lumber yet, which I know I wanted to at least have purchased some in November. I hadn't thought of a small padded chair for going under layouts, given how tall I am, don't know how that would work for me since I hate squatting. Must come from being the catcher when we'd have our relatives over and play baseball, lol.

Dave, Yes, you are taller than me.  I always wondered how catchers do it.  I remember Manny Sanguillen had not just a squatting position, but when men were on base he extended one leg out to take the pitch which he said helped him getting up to throw out a base stealer.  It always looked counter intuitive to me, but worked for him.  Manny is a great guy!  He has a sandwich shop at PNC Park and is often at the games, even though he uses a walker a lot now.  Maybe he was a catcher too long!!

For you, maybe a creeper that adjusts into a seat would work.  Here is the one that I mentioned yesterday.

Here is the end section of the creeper that can be removed or used as an upper back rest.

It hasn't worked as well in the attic as I hoped because the bottom of the ridge beam is only 31 inches from the floor.  I had to take off the top section of the creeper and have to duck under each rafter.  However, it gives you an idea of how it would work under a layout.  I'm 5' 11" tall.

I love Atlas cars.  My best boxcar red boxcars and billboard reefers are Atlas.  They are high dollar, but I think have more details than the best MTH and Lionel offer.  That isn't to slam MTH and Lionel.  They put out great detail on high end cars also.  Later K-Line cars have great detail as well.  All of these manufacturers produce some tremendous cars compared to what they did a few decades ago.

Lumber costs?  Yikes!!  I'm glad I was able to salvage some old wood from bookshelves, an old homebuilt work bench, and my dad's stash before we sold the house 3 years ago.

Thank you for commenting!!!!

I'm making some progress on adapting the existing layout to  Jeff's new plan.  I removed two of the three sections of the ramp that is closest to the backdrop to allow for the new upper level to have room in between.  The ramp is just setting on the joists between 9 and 10 inches from the backdrop.  I moved it 5 inches forward.  That would allow for the upper level track behind it with steep rock walls and some retaining balls in between.  This is the two tracks on the left side of the upper level drawing.

I should have removed the curved track I just set there to have a place to put it.  I am really cramped for space doing construction in the 11x11 room, but it is better than what I had for so many years; no room at all.

I've had a chance to think about the yard tracks and I like them enough to start building the upper level over them from the double track lift-up bridge over them.  I probably won't get to do much on that until January.  I still have to secure the yard tracks since I only put a screw into the track here or there so things don't shift with my clumsiness.

Mark you have had an impressive and productive pre-Christmas season.

Jay

Mark, your doing an Outstand job! I know all about lack of space during construction! LOL I will be keeping an eye out for your next update!

Thank you Jay and Mike!

I have been pleased with the time I have had with the layout the last few weeks.  Also, what I have worked on has come together well, thanks to some preplanning and having done the same thing before.  

These somewhat overhead views show I attached the roadbed that I moved back to the joists.  Yes, the edge of the ties are from 9 to 10 inches from the backdrop, though it doesn't look like it.  There will be room for the upper level to go between the track and backdrop.

This shows the moved track on the left in comparison to the original track on the right.  They are 5-1/2 inches apart.

I am going to work on the upper level from the double track bridge pier towards the locations in the above photographs.  The two "dowels" cut from a rake handle show an approximate position of the first two supports.  I think I will have to mark the locations on the table top, then drill holes through and attach them with screws from the underneath.  As I go, I don't think I will want to attach the upper roadbed to the supports at first so I can see how it works out and make adjustments.

Here is an overview from the room entrance.  I have since moved the cars out of the way so I don't break any.

Thank you for taking a look.

Looking good Mark.  The upper level should not need much more than 4 screws to "set" the corners. Makes far more sense to drill a hole from the top so you can find the column from below.  I had a real challenge drilling up from below finding the 2x4s I used and then getting them to stay put while I tried to drive screws up into them.  I ended up drilling them from top at a diagonal. This made removal and adjustments difficult. The things one learns by making mistakes and trying to fix them later!!!  Good thoughts on moving the cars. I hope you are happy with the way the new layout will operate.  Jeff

BTW - It looks like your plans are 180 degrees off from the track position.  At least in the 3rd photo.  Then again maybe not looking at the 4th photo.

Thank you Jeff, I actually moved the drawings away then back without looking at the positioning.  Good eye!

I am going to try it out and uses as few supports as possible so they don’t get in the way.

@Mark Boyce

Looks like you are going to have a bit of work!

Mark this is going to be spectacular.

Merry Christmas.

Starting to come back together Mark. I agree on drilling the holes from above for the dowels. I did most of mine like that but the few I did from underneath were a challenge.

Bob

Thank you, Leandro, Bill, Bob!

Yes it is a lot to do.  I’ve had this thread going 6 years now.  I thought I would be building scenery, but I needed time to try out scenarios.  I never built a layout in O Gauge and needed to see how big it is in real life.  My most complete layout was in a room smaller than this, but it was N scale.  I need to scan my photographs of that layout and post them.  (Western Maryland and Baltimore & Ohio)

Bob, I can measure top and bottom 5 times and still have to drill 3 times to get it right drilling from underneath.  I will have to move empty boxes from underneath and then I can get in there with the screwdriver.  Not a big deal. 👍🏻

@Mark Boyce posted:

Thank you, Leandro, Bill, Bob!

Bob, I can measure top and bottom 5 times and still have to drill 3 times to get it right drilling from underneath.  I will have to move empty boxes from underneath and then I can get in there with the screwdriver.  Not a big deal. 👍🏻

Pre- drill the dowel too......it helps get the screw centered and makes it easier to install.

I'm lovin' following along with you here Mark.

More, please, Sir!

@Mark Boyce posted:

Thank you, Leandro, Bill, Bob!

Yes it is a lot to do.  I’ve had this thread going 6 years now.  I thought I would be building scenery, but I needed time to try out scenarios.  I never built a layout in O Gauge and needed to see how big it is in real life.  My most complete layout was in a room smaller than this, but it was N scale.  I need to scan my photographs of that layout and post them.  (Western Maryland and Baltimore & Ohio)

Bob, I can measure top and bottom 5 times and still have to drill 3 times to get it right drilling from underneath.  I will have to move empty boxes from underneath and then I can get in there with the screwdriver.  Not a big deal. 👍🏻

Mark, you are another person who is inspiring……you tore down what you built and have redesigned and built it back better! Keep up the great work and Merry Christmas!

Peter

Thank you, Bob, John, Peter!

Bob, Oh, absolutely predrill the dowel.  I cut a bunch of them to length last evening, and that's as far as I got.    Not worth a photograph. 

John, Thank you so very much!!  I'm glad you like following along.  I certainly hope to have much more to report as the winter progresses.  I want to get to building scenery and not just buildings sitting on Homasote and plywood!! 

Peter, As I think back on the past 6 years, this has been a venture into what I want versus what I can fit in this small room in O gauge.  There has been some misdirection on my part, there has been disappointment at times.  However, I think this 'Plan E' will be something that I will stick with, at least until/if we move to another house.

It’s really been interesting to watch how this layout has changed from the initial drawing on paper to the “final” version in SCARM to the “new” final version. Of course, in model railroading the word “final” has absolutely no meaning. 🤣

MERRY CHRISTMAS and HAPPY NEW YEAR. 🎄🎅🏻🥂🍾