UPDATE..HELP with RRT and new track plan..UPDATE

Safari cannot open the plans.  

I am not sure what you have going on? Some reason it's not all in one layout file?

Dan,

I found this plan in an old layout book and I am trying to put it together in RRT but my skills are very limited as you can see...

Basicly it's 14x25 .. 3 levels..the plan is level one -plan 2 lower level and plan 3 bottom level. The five tracks at the top of the plan are a passenger station /yard.. follow the spur from the yard to the mainline and follow it around until it goes under that spur..on to plan 2.. if you are on the outside line going in and follow it around you come back out on the inner-most line in the opposite direction.

see where I'm going??  I need to figure out how to make grades and levels all on one plan but until then this is thye best I can do....

I'll try  to post the plan from the book... it might be easier to understand...

RD posted:

Dan,

I found this plan in an old layout book and I am trying to put it together in RRT but my skills are very limited as you can see...

Basicly it's 14x25 .. 3 levels..the plan is level one -plan 2 lower level and plan 3 bottom level. The five tracks at the top of the plan are a passenger station /yard.. follow the spur from the yard to the mainline and follow it around until it goes under that spur..on to plan 2.. if you are on the outside line going in and follow it around you come back out on the inner-most line in the opposite direction.

see where I'm going??  I need to figure out how to make grades and levels all on one plan but until then this is thye best I can do....

I get the connection between the first two levels, but can't see how the third level ties in.  I presume the first level is the diagram on the left.  

Third level comes off the spur with th "y" switch at the end...

hopefully the photo from the magazine makes it a bit clearer

I am loving what I am seeing!!!! Wish I had the Room!!!

I changed the title because I am hoping someone can show me how to join these files.

Im going to try the tutorial one more time but so far it's not helping. I am working with version 5.2

and trying to join the three levels. This is a very rough copy of the plan in the book..no switches or sidings have been included yet but...baby steps.....

Any help  and/or advice would be apreciated.

thanks

read:

1. layers - to show each level separately when working
2. color track - sometimes that helps when working with multi-levels
3. elevated track to set the height of the track on a layer
4. setting grades - to select and set the grade of the transition between layers

I tried to copy and paste to one file. I don't know how they are supposed to connect or even if it is multi-level.

You'll need a barn if this is in O. It's 10 x 20 in HO , so a guesstimate in O would be at least double that - 20 x 40.

I see, you want to convert the track plan to a smaller version in O. Are there any detail pages?

There's days of work to this plan - so don't get too frustrated if you are still learning the software.

RD,

Joining the 3 together is easy.  Highlight and grab the first plan (cut & paste).  Drag this image to the second image,

align and paste.  Repeat these steps for the third image.  Whole operation takes about 20 seconds.

BTW, I love the plan.

SantaFeJim posted:

RD,

Joining he 3 together is easy.  Highlight ang grab the first plan (cut & paste).  Drag this image to the second image, align and paste.  Repeat these steps for the third image.  Whole operation takes about 20 seconds.

BTW, I love the plan.

Do it. What result do you get?

I'm not sure there is a way to "physically join" separate RRT files, although SantaFe Jim's "select and paste" method might be worth a try.  The end goal though is, you've got to learn to think in "layers" with RRT:  keeping all the layers in ONE RRT file -- the same way photographers think in layers using Photoshop (if that helps).  

Each of the track layers should have track in a different color.  Scenery objects and buildings should be in their own layers too.  When you're filling out the different layers with track components, you can "hide" other layers to avoid confusion.  Then selectively toggle different layers on/off as needed.

Since all of the layers reside in one RRT file, you should start your RRT file with the maximum room dimensions... starting with the main track layer, then switch to the second (middle) layer and third (bottom) layer accordingly.  I've also found it handy with RRT to plan ahead using absolute track heights.  For example, in this plan, you might want to think about the main (top) track layer at 55", the second (middle) track layer at 48", and the third (bottom) track layer at 40".  Or whatever works best for you.

Hope that helps.

David

Moonman -

I have used rr-track for 15 years so I know of what I speak.  I donated my Dell to a company that trains veterans in computer repair last November so I don't have a PC.  Now, if rr-track made a version for a MAC I would have assembled the layout for Rich and emailed the rr-file directly to him.

RD, as Jim says, it's easy to merge the 3 files, so here's what that looks like (1st photo). As you can see, they don't line up too well, so you have some work to do.
- The Black tracks are from your Plan#66.rrt file and are on layer "track 1".
- The Blue tracks are from your Plan#66-2.rrt file and are on layer "track 2".
- The Green tracks are from your Plan#66-3/rrt file and are on layer "track 3".

FWIW, rather than change the individual track colors, I generally change the color of the layers instead. In this case, I would also add a layer for the grades between the levels and set that layer to a 4th color.

Based on the drawing you posted from the magazine, it appears that the Blue tracks should connect to the 4 tracks in the larger blue circle and the Green tracks should connect with the 2 tracks in the smaller blue circle. I couldn't tell from the drawing exactly which layers were which, but it looked like the Green tracks were on the lowest level and the Blue tracks on an intermediate level, so I set the height of the Green tracks to 0", the Blue tracks to 7" and the Black tracks to 14" just to show some separation in the 3D view (2nd photo).

The 3rd photo shows the beginning steps to link Level 2 with Level 1 (Level 3 is hidden). As you can see, I added some straight sections to expand the Blue curves on the left so the loops on the right sit more directly below those above. More work needs to be done so they all connect and I thought I'd let you play with that. Once that's done, the expanded curves will then form the grade down to this level. I did create a grade with the one leg I connected. I added a "grades" layer and changed the color to Cyan (looks like purple in the photo). The grade goes from 14" down to 7" and by including the straight sections, the slope is an acceptable 2.9%.

I hope some of this helps you move along with this design. I assume you have the 14'x25' space the design will need for O scale.

NOTE: I didn't mention the difficulties you are going to have reaching various sections of the track, etc., so you really need to think about access if you pursue this.

SantaFeJim posted:

Moonman -

I have used rr-track for 15 years so I know of what I speak.  I donated my Dell to a company that trains veterans in computer repair last November so I don't have a PC.  Now, if rr-track made a version for a MAC I would have assembled the layout for Rich and emailed the rr-file directly to him.

I think Carl simply meant that the result is pretty ugly, as you can see from my post. It's even uglier if you don't first set up some layers (like I did so you can keep the levels separate for the work that needs to be done to line things up properly. In this case, it probably would have been easier to learn how to use layers rather than create 3 separate files that don't line up with each other. Now there's a lot of work that needs to be done to get things to fit together and I'm not sure RCS has the needed sectional pieces, not to mention the decision to use RCS track in the first place. I didn't take the time because I think this will be a good exercise to really learn RRT.

WOW!!

Thank you all so much.. this is eactly what I was hoping for.. I think I just need a push in the right direction and you've given me something I can work with.

Jim: I was able to do exactly as you said and got everything in one file.. but it looked pretty much like the first photo in Daves post .. at least it was all in one file.. thanks for that.

David: Thinking in layers was the clue I needed to give me a new perspective. Once I started looking for "layer" options new menus started to drop down...that helped.

Doubledaz Dave: Forget John Wick...you are now my new hero!!

What you did in the third photo is exactly what I was trying for. You also raise some good questions that I think I can answer. I am lucky enough to have the space for this with room to walk around the outside of the whole layout. I also have options on the orientation in the room and I can massage it to make it work...If you look at the photo from the magazine most of the trackwork is reachable from the outside of the layout with the exeption of the turntable/rounhouse area.

Grades: The best way to explain whats going on is this.. the track from the turntable and the track coming off the switch at the top of the black level form an overpass that goes over all four of the mainline tracks that pass under and down to the next level .. this is where it gets interesting.. a train going under the overpass on the outside track (the track with the spur going to the "Y") travels around under the upper level and comes back out of the overpass on the inside most (purple or cayan) track going the opposite direction!!  The same thing happens with a train on either of the inner tracks .. it goes under on one and comes back out on the other going the other way... cool right??!!

The spur with the "Y" leads to the lowest level  ... train goes in off one leg of the Y  travels around and comes out the other leg.. it's a big reverse loop..this is also the level that leads to lower level staging under the yard/passenger station.

It looks much more complicated than it is ... I had to study it for a while but it is really just a double mainline twisted over itself. I think with some help  and proper planning I could pull this off..... right now I am working on the room and dismantling the old 8x12.. new carpeting & lighting  etc... then the journey begins... should be fun!

Again thank you guys for all the help..

RD, you're too kind. I'm looking forward to seeing where this goes and will help in any way I can with RRT.

SantaFeJim posted:

Moonman -

I have used rr-track for 15 years so I know of what I speak.  I donated my Dell to a company that trains veterans in computer repair last November so I don't have a PC.  Now, if rr-track made a version for a MAC I would have assembled the layout for Rich and emailed the rr-file directly to him.

speaking and doing are two different things - one is bs and one gets results - Daz got results

it's a start over situation - copy and pasting resulted in spaghetti

Moonman posted:

SantaFeJim posted:

Moonman -

I have used rr-track for 15 years so I know of what I speak.  I donated my Dell to a company that trains veterans in computer repair last November so I don't have a PC.  Now, if rr-track made a version for a MAC I would have assembled the layout for Rich and emailed the rr-file directly to him.

speaking and doing are two different things - one is bs and one gets results - Daz got results

it's a start over situation - copy and pasting resulted in spaghetti

FYI moo man,

The advice I gave was NOT BS.  It worked as I said it would.  The fact that in your opinion it resulted in spaghetti is not any fault of my advice.  Remember GIGO.

Carl,

I appreciate your constant readiness to help with advice but there are a few things it appears are unclear. The trackplan has already been converted to O scale from HO. While you would think it would take twice the room because of the extra wide curves on the  10x20 HO plan I was able to fit 0-72 to 0-92 curves without much change so the O scale plan fits in 14x25...

One other thing .. Jim's advice worked exactly as he said it would and got all three plans on one page which was the objective. From there my new  best forum buddy Daz  took it to the next level...literally ...

One more thing...I have known Jim for many years and I have to say BS has never been a trait of his... I'm just sayin..

RD, just something to consider while early in the planning stages... watch for appropriate clearances BELOW the turntable area.  Turntables often have components beneath the benchwork, and you have some lower-level track running there too.

David

Not sure how this thread got derailed, but FWIW, I did cut & paste the 3 levels as a starting point, I just did it so each level was on an individual layer. I then changed the height of each level, hid the lowest level, added some straight sections and changed some straights to curves on the middle level so at least part of that level would connect without changing its orientation, after which I created the grade. It will take more changes to get the other ends of that level to connect and then get the lower level to connect where its grade down begins. Simply cutting & pasting would have resulted in a mess that would have been really hard to fix, so it took more thought than that to get something useful to work with. However, I did not start over, the cut & paste helped avoid that.

So, can we now get back to working on the design and not argue about how we got to this point?

I'm with Dave......

Dave I added the lowest level in green but I seem to have put it below the floor????

David: I know it's hard to tell on the RRT plan but if youy look at the page from the book you can see it's open below the TT.... also if you look at the two lower levels in the corner of that picture you can see where they outlined the benchwork and its all open in the middle...

RD, the lowest level was already there on Layer 3. I just had it set to "hidden" (options/layers) so the other tracks could be seen better.

Be that as it may, for some reason you set the lead to tracks to the turnout to 34" and the lower level tracks to -20". Since my lower level is still there on Layer 3, I moved yours to Layer 4 and moved the grade tracks to Layer Grades. The problem is that by using 0", 7" and 14" heights, the slopes between the top level and the lowest level are 3.8% & 5.2% and I'm not sure there is enough clearance for the tracks on the middle level.

However, looking at the drawing again, it appears that the grades should actually begin much further up the line. They cross under the tracks leading to the turntable, so they have to be much lower before they get to that point. I think this is what Carl meant when he suggested it needs to be started over from the beginning. Now that I see what's happening, at the very least each run should be on a separate layer so they can be worked on individually. As it is, it gets very confusing. The photo doesn't help much unless you really study it because the elevation changes aren't very apparent. I'm busy the next few days, so it will be awhile before I can play with this again. I'll post my file so you can see what I mean and what I did.

Good Morning RD,

I had a little time this morning before the workers arrive, so I tried a new approach to your layout design. Instead of separating the levels, I separated the individual "runs" and changed track colors to show levels and grades, along the lines of what Carl suggested. The layers I used are:
- Track 1 for the main run.
- Turntable for the TT and track run leading to the yard.
- Labels to identify grade percentages, etc.
- Bench Work for the white tabletop so you can see the different colored track better.

Here are the main and turntable runs. The Black tracks on the Track 1 layer and the Lt Blue tracks on the Turntable layer are set to 14" high. The darker Blue tracks are lower at 7" and the purple tracks are the grades from 14" down to 7".

RRT's 3D view doesn't make it easy to see the grades, so I added a couple of different views. As you can see, the grade for the track nearest the turntable starts on the right side midway through the loop and the slope for it is 3.4%. You can reduce the slope by starting the grade a few tracks further around the loop. The grade for the other track starts in the lower right corner because it's not advisable to place a turnout on a slope. Either way, both sets of track now clear the run going from the TT to the storage yard tracks.

One potential problem I see is circled in Blue. I'm not sure these tracks clear each other and there is still work to be done to get everything to connect. So, it doesn't make much sense to spend time adding the lower level and yard back in until this level is finished. However, in looking at your latest effort, the tracks going down to the lower level have to clear the tracks on the left side and I'm not sure the slope is going to be acceptable, especially given where you placed the 2nd turnout. The last photo shows what I'm talking about., Those Purple tracks need to go under the Blue tracks and there's no way there's enough room for an acceptable slope. The Blue tracks are at 7", so the Purple tracks need to be at 0" before they cross. This is a problem whenever you try to convert an HO design to O scale. While the overall space needed may not double as Carl suggested, acceptable grades in O scale require a lot more room and I'm not sure we can overcome that.

Workers are here, so I need to go. Good luck!

Let me re-post the photo and see if I can clear a few things...

first ignore all the track crossed out in red at the top of the photo .. those are filler sidings from the HO plan and are not needed. Now for the concerns with the grades and levels.. the 4 track main and it's spur leading to the Y come out from under the blue crossover at the same level.. from there you have all the way around the bottom of the layout and back up the left side to rise up and crossover.

Now look at the overview on the upper right to see how the the main and spur wrap aroun and under the mainand back up again.. as I see it there is a good 25-35 feet for the track to rise up over itself..

any clearer??

Not really.  I get that the 4 mains and the 2 lines leading to the Y come out at the same level in the photo (Jan 2011 issue of MR). However, they are "rising" up in the direction of the arrows you added because they need to allow clearance for the tracks you outlined in blue coming from the turntable to crossover. From what I can see, there is a wall of some sort to the right of the turntable along the 4 mains and they don't reach full height until they get past the end of the wall. At that point, they and the other visible tracks are on the same level. The 4 mains go beneath the layout to form the 2nd level. The 2 lines from the Y and the storage tracks attached to them go further beneath the layout to form level 3. This is shown in the inset where the 4 mains are obviously on top of the 2 lines from the Y.

I picked a 7" separation between levels to allow access to rolling stock, etc., in case of a derailment or other problems. That might be more than you feel you need, but I had to use something. In any case, the 4 mains have to drop at least 5" BEFORE the crossover, depending on what you plan for sub-roadbed and roadbed. Either way, the descent HAS to begin somewhere in the loop at the bottom of the layout and where the descent begins in O scale may be far different from where it began in HO scale.

While the 4 mains and the 2 lines to the Y appear to be at the same level coming up in the drawing, doing so places several turnouts on the grade. That is usually frowned on, but in this case you wouldn't be uncoupling cars on those tracks, so it probably wouldn't matter. However, the 2 lines to the Y still have to drop twice as far as the 4 mains and they have to do so BEFORE level 3 crosses under level 2 coming out of the curves at the top of the inset. Level 2 drops at least 5" and level 3 drops at least 10". I simply don't think there's enough length for the 10" drop. Call me crazy, but dropping 10" in the same distance as dropping 5" should result in a grade that is twice as steep, and too steep to boot.

Oh, and I forgot to mention I substituted the turntable in my version because for some reason I couldn't connect any tracks to the one you used.

Since I don't like RRT's 3D display, I might put this in SCARM to see if it's 3D display will better illustrate what I'm trying to say.

How about this??

If I start the downgrade at line A there is at least 30 feet to line B to change 6 inches... I don't know what % that is but it would seem like enough room. Also the track coming off the turntable is conected only to the staging yard and I can make that whole RH/TT area any elevation it needs to be to make it work.  I can lower the mains 3 inches and raise the turntable 3 inches if needed..

In the inset the line off the Y is nothing more than a reverse loop and from what I can see needs to drop at least another 5 inches between  C & D which is about another 10 -12 feet .. might be a bit steep but  it should work.

From what I can tell the turnouts that concern you are on the main before the underpass between the 2 red lines .. these are there to cross from track to track and can be moved to anywhere... actually the complicated slip switches are really not needed...and  most of the turnouts except for the one leading to the Y can be relocated ... open grid bencwork should make the elevation changes pretty straight forward...

RD posted:

Carl,

I appreciate your constant readiness to help with advice but there are a few things it appears are unclear. The trackplan has already been converted to O scale from HO. While you would think it would take twice the room because of the extra wide curves on the  10x20 HO plan I was able to fit 0-72 to 0-92 curves without much change so the O scale plan fits in 14x25...

One other thing .. Jim's advice worked exactly as he said it would and got all three plans on one page which was the objective. From there my new  best forum buddy Daz  took it to the next level...literally ...

One more thing...I have known Jim for many years and I have to say BS has never been a trait of his... I'm just sayin..

RD,

The plan is not converted. First issue is the table size. I have Linn H. Wescott's book, 101 Track Plans. It clearly shows that a track plan designed to fit HO in a 10 x 20 space requires a 20 x 40 space in O. Therefore, in 14 x25, it's akin to putting 10lbs in a 5lb. bag. There will be fitment issues and perhaps grade problems.

If I took the time to open the pieces that you made in RRT and post attached photos of them, do you and Jim really think that I didn't copy and paste them to one instance of RRT and immediately see that it was spaghetti and nothing fit?   It wasn't even worthy of posting. Yes, it is BS when Jim talks the talk and has stories why he is not assisting.  Nothing personal, just not realistic on what existed and the time required to make something out of it.

The long yard will take at least 24"-30"w and the aisle a minimum of 30"w at it's narrowest point, so there's 5'w before you get on the main table. The plan states a minimum curve of 30" r in HO. Therefore the minimum curve in O is a 60"r or an 0120. Then, depending on your center spacing, use NMRA 4.5", it would be O129d, O138d and O147d curves for the main table.

Needing 5'w for the yard and aisle ,12.5'w minimum for the main table (17.5'w total), you can see why the table (plan) needs 20' for the width. Subtract the yard and aisle from 14'w that you want to use and it only leaves 9' to work with for the main table.

My point is that attempting to rescale and resize a track plan to an between relationship throws it all out of whack.

Good luck with your efforts. This is an impressive track plan.

Carl,

the yard table will be 2' x25' the largest curve in my plan is 0-92 which means about a 9' table that and approximately 30" for the aisle adds up to about 14'. I don't know from "nmra" but I do know I can and I have already massaged the plan to fit the space..

Again while I appreciate your effort to help I don't appreciate you insulting my friend Jim and taking the thread in the wrong direction for a second time. If you have an issue with Jim please take it off line.

thanks

RD,

I did some more work to try to get my point across. I added the lower level to show what kinds of grades you will be looking at if you pursue this design in the space you have. I know it's difficult to see, so I deleted the grid lines to make it a little easier.

The Black track (Level 1) is set to the standard height of 40" that many modelers use.
The Blue track (Level 2) is set to 6" lower at 34".
The Green track (Level 3) is another 6" lower at 28".
The Purple tracks show the grades between the various levels.

RRT will not let me place a turnout on a grade, so I had to start the grade before the turnouts. I did try to line them up as closely as I could beneath the crossover for the turntable lead track (see line). You can see that the grades came out to 2.9% and 3.0% for the main level, but they end at different places in the curves on the right. RRT doesn't allow grades to begin/end in the middle of tracks and I don't know how to create a parallel grade, so I tried to get as close as I could to acceptable grades. When you build the layout, you are certainly free to begin/end the grades wherever you want and keep them both equal (see both lines).

Now, when it comes to the lowest level that comes off the Y, the Purple tracks show the 5.5% and 6.3% grades you will get going down from 40" to 28" when the grade ends at the point where I think levels 2 and 3 will begin to cross over each other. Since I have no idea how long your passenger trains will be, those grades might be okay, but my guess is they will be too steep for all but very short trains, if even those. And to Carl's point, this doesn't consider that once all the tracks are added, they may not connect, unless you consider using GarGraves flextrack in some places and maybe not even then. Still not sure why you've chosen Ross track instead of GarGraves track with Ross switches.

At any rate, the circled tracks show the footprints for an O72 Y and an O72 LH turnout. Hopefully you can see that the Y is unlikely to work in the space you have because of the distance between the tracks coming off the Y. The LH turnout looks like it might work.

The bottom line is I see no reason you can't get the 4 main lines, turntable and yard  to work, but I think the line off the Y is going to be a problem because it has to drop 12" to clear Level 2.

RD posted:

but I do know I can and I have already massaged the plan to fit the space.

If you already have a plan to fit the space, let's see it. So far, all we've seen are bits and pieces that don't fit together. I'm doing my best to help, but I don't seem to be getting my points across, so I'm pretty frustrated myself at this point. I believe the last file you posted had some tracks at 40" and others at -20" with no grades to connect them. If you've now got it all fixed, I'm eager to see it.

""The bottom line is I see no reason you can't get the 4 main lines, turntable and yard  to work, but I think the line off the Y is going to be a problem because it has to drop 12" to clear Level 2.""

 ""so I'm pretty frustrated myself at this point. I believe the last file you posted had some tracks at 40" and others at -20" with no grades to connect them. If you've now got it all fixed, I'm eager to see it.""

Dave,

Please don't let this stupid trackplan (or the dummy that posted it) get on your nerves.... what I meant by massaging is by changing curve radius and moving things around a bit I got it to fit the page... this is a crude plan due to my lack of experiance with RRT so I consider that a win... I also have no idea how the different levels got to be the highth they are on my plan .. I am literally just moving things around trying to learn the program...

The reason for the Ross track ... I want to use preformed curves and I like the appearance of Ross + it was just easier than going back and forth between the 2 track menus.. I always planned on using Gargraves with Ross turnouts and preformed curves and I am no way  locked in to that and I am in no way against twisting a piece of flextrack to meet the need.

Now that we have level one and two  working and you know I can move that grade back around that curve as far as I need to.. I'm thinking the glitch between the way you and I are seeing this is I dont understand why level 3 has to drop so far to clear level two... you understand that the reverse loop (level 3) starts and ends on level 2  so it would start at 34"  and go to 28" (to use your numbers).. it starts and ends where the mainlines go under the overpass ..or the begining of level 2 (34') if that makes it easier to understand...
I am also not locked in to the Y  turnout or at this point any specific turnouts other than they have to be Ross.. I figure with his track and turnout menu and Gargraves flex  I can find what I need. I will let the trackplan dictate where and what type of turnouts have to go where.. with the menu of turnouts that Ross offers I'm sure I will find what I need for any situation...

Again Dave I really appreciate all the time and effort you are throwing at this plan and the last thing in the world I want is for you to feel frustrated.  I hope this clears things up a bit... little by little...

Okay RD, I see where you're coming from, so I'll try again to see if I can explain things a little better.

You stated that the 4 mains and the line with the wye were at the same height coming up from beneath Level 1 where the crossover with the turntable line is (yellow rectangle). Therefore, THAT part of the grade (black dot to blue dot) gets the track for the Level 3 down to the 34" point.

However, because there is also a return loop on Level 2 (blue), Level 3 has to go below it. In order to do that, it has to go down another 6" to the 28" point. And it has to clear Level 2 at the point where they will cross (cyan rectangle). I did error in that I initially said they crossed where the red rectangle is, but they actually cross earlier where the cyan rectangle is and that makes things even worse.

Now, I temporarily replaced the turnout with an O72 curve so RRT will let me create the needed grades. Because the grade for the line with the wye is tied to the 4 mains, it HAS to start where the turnout was and the turnout needs to be on the same level as the 4 mains. Therefore, 2 grades are needed; one from the black dot to the blue dot and another from the blue dot to the cyan rectangle. As you can see, the grade from black to blue is 3.3% and the one from blue to cyan is 5.4%. That gets all the Level 3 track (green) under the Level 2 track (blue) so everything clears. But, with this scenario, the line with the wye will end up going down quicker that the 4 mains and will not be even after the turnout. My first attempt was trying to meet your goal of keeping them even until after they disappeared and there is no way to do that from the blue dot to the cyan rectangle with an acceptable slope. And the slope for the other line coming from the wye will be even steeper.

At any rate, I'm not saying this latest version won't work, but you're going to end up with grades above 5% and 6% unless the length of the grade can be increased. I don't believe those grades are viable for passenger trains, but I could be wrong. Most try to keep grades below 3% and some shoot for 2%. You can try to move the turnout further to the right and begin the grade further around the curves on the right, but there are still 2 more mains that need to be added/considered. When you add those, the cyan rectangle moves up and decreases the length for the grade. That's why I believe it's important to get the 4 mains set and BEFORE adding the lines with the wye (or turnout, whichever you decide to use).

I could be wrong here too, but it seems to me like you're having some difficulty understanding grades and where they have to begin/end. I wish RRT could display those better, but it can't, so I might still try SCARM. If nothing else, SCARM would display the colors of the tracks better. I've got other things to do though, so I'll let you mull this over for a bit. Look this over paying particular attention when I reference color points.

Guys, while it's true RRT doesn't allow turnouts on graded track, you can always substitute a straight or curve section to create the preliminary grade as DAZ has done.  Then later replace the curve or straight section on the grade with a turnout set at the appropriate height.  Then tweak the grades as required using the turnout as an endpoint of the grades.  All RRT cares about is the two ends of a grade are fixed height track... with the pieces of track selected between those endpoints becoming the grade.  It'll do all the calculations for you.

Once you get the hang of RRT, it's a very powerful tool.

David

Dave,

I do understand what you're saying but my point is this is a very flexable plan .. I can start the reverse loop at the blue dot and run it around the outside of the level 2 tracks slowly decending on a reasonable grade and cross under level2 wherever I need to. Also I can move the black dot as far back around that curve as I'd like and up the back straight if need be to make that grade as gradual as I'd like..

also please remember that it is really only two main lines folded over... the two outside lines are the same track as are the two inside lines ... if that makes a difference...

Obviously, I'm fully aware that levels 1 & 2 are basically just 2 ovals folded over to form the 4 mains at the tunnel. I'm also aware that the line coming off the wye is also just another oval folded over. What I wasn't aware of (and still might not be) is how much you're willing to alter the design in order to make room for the 2 levels below the main level, how acceptable it is for the line off the wye to be lower than the mains going into the tunnel and how much space you have for the changes. While you might think it's easy to change the curve on the left so the spur lines clear Level 2, it's not apparent to me how much room you have to do that. Still, I took the time to see what it would take and here's the result. Mind you, there is still a lot of work for you to do the make sure the spacing between tracks is wide enough for trains to pass and you still have to add the other mains plus the yards, etc., but this should give you a good start. Make a note that the black turn outs are simply a straight and a curve set to look like turnouts to get the grades done., The real turnouts that would go there are off to the side. 

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

Guys, while it's true RRT doesn't allow turnouts on graded track, you can always substitute a straight or curve section to create the preliminary grade as DAZ has done.  Then later replace the curve or straight section on the grade with a turnout set at the appropriate height.  Then tweak the grades as required using the turnout as an endpoint of the grades.  All RRT cares about is the two ends of a grade are fixed height track... with the pieces of track selected between those endpoints becoming the grade.  It'll do all the calculations for you.

Once you get the hang of RRT, it's a very powerful tool.

David

Even though I had plenty other things to do, I went ahead and played with your idea to get the grades. You can see the results in my previous post.