NYC Penn Station documentary on PBS Tuesday

Which PBS stations, in what parts of the U.S.?

Tuesday's broadcast is WNET channel 13 in NJ/NY, maybe others. The piece was produced by WGBH in Boston. Go to PBS.org and you can find when in your area to watch it.

There's an 8 minute trailer on the PBS site.

OK, found it. For those living in the Chicago area, WTTW will show this program at 9:00 PM Central time, Tuesday, Feb 18.

Atlantans can catch it on WGPB, channel 8 at 9:00 PM Eastern Time on Tuesday Feb 18th, with a repeat on Sunday Feb 23rd at 4:00 AM Eastern Time.

I was there once as a child before it was torn down. I was 6 years old in 1963, so I don't remember much except for the sheer size of the interior spaces. I've been to what remains of Penn Station many, many times, including one memorable occasion when I was playing hooky from high school and was invited to ride aboard a GG1 that was serving as the station "drill" engine. (switcher).

Tuesday, Feb. 18th, 9 PM on KOCE 50 in the Los Angeles area. Anyone notice a pattern here?

I often wonder if the station was still standing, what would we think of it today?  Would we be as much in love with it, or just consider it, "that old place?" Would deferred maintenance by the PRR and Penn Central be too much to overcome today?  Would Amtrak or Conrail inherit it in the 70s? Obviously, this is speculation. But it is too easy to look back 50 years and call it a shame, and not consider how it could have survived to today.

The Hotel Pennsylvania, built by the railroad as the income-producing portion of the station, across the street from the station still stands, and yet I have never heard anything complimentary of that structure or the rooms.

Tim,

the destruction of NY Penn was really the beginning moment of the historic preservation movement in this country, which became galvanized when a tower was proposed to be built over Grand Central Terminal a few years later. (and subsequently denied approval)

NY Penn was a massive space, whether it's design function could have survived into this century is a question for the ages to ponder. It was often cited that the enormous waiting space held not one single seat to sit on.

Remember in addition to the public spaces, there was also quite a bit of company office space contained in three wings of the building. Small compared to the value of the NYC real estate it occupied.

The bottom line is the current station is an abomination, certainly not worthy of a great city like New York.

Though twenty years on, I am hopeful any variation of a proposed grand new station will someday come to fuition.

Rich Luckin just finished his documentary on Grand Central Station which PBS will broadcast later this year. The DVD, which we expect to receive this week, has all of the TV program plus added footage not in the broadcast version. I don't have a schedule for the PBS broadcast.

-Jim Herron

All things considered, I would much prefer to have the structure present today than not, while we debate the worthwhileness of its retention and preservation.

The current structures on the site and anything likely to be built there in the future pale by comparison to the majesty and artistry of Pennsylvania Station.

As for the Hotel Pennsylvania, I would love to have a time machine transport me back to 1936 thru 1939 so I could witness the Benny Goodman Orchestra in full swing in the celebrated Madhattan Room, and Artie Shaw's band rocking the hotel's Café Rouge.

John, 

I agree, that new Penn Station is an abomination.

The new Penn Station can't hold a candle to the beautiful, former Penn Station, which would have lasted another 100 years, or so and I say it was demolished, due to political and a money making scheme!!!

Ralph

I don't know if there was an alternative to wiping the old station out because of the way it was built.  It would have been difficult to slice and dice.  

It would have been nice to preserve the main concourse and rebuilt/repurposed the waiting rooms and other parts but the Railroad was hemorrhaging money and this was viewed as a quick fix.  Trouble was they continued to hemorrhage money and then there wasn't much left to liquidate.

Main concourse was incredible even in it's final days.  Main waiting rooms were pretty dirty/gloomy and the facade was equally dingy.  It would have needed a major cleaning both inside and outside to take it back to its glory days.

I watched it tonight, it was a great show in the building of it plus the tunnels, it was 

sad when they tore it down, but I glad because of it the GGT and others buildings 

survived. What ever happen to the idea of taken the NY post office building and 

making that the new Penn Station?

Tin 

The lease is up for MSG and they a) aren't getting a renewal and b) they want more/different space.  This means that the new station can be built on the foot print of the old.  The Post Office building solution isn't required.  

There will be massive changes to the passenger traffic with the new LIRR access to Grand Central so the purpose/need for Penn Station will shift.  It's not clear that any of the plans (including the ones being floated now) have accurately or adequately addressed this.

An immense tragedy but one sooo typical of the era. Stop and think of how many awesome classes of steam power were lost in the same time frame. The reasons were similar, and dis-similar at the same time. The results were the same!  Some will say...Hey we lost virtually all Central steam power, but we still have Grand Central.  True, but with a little more involvement, and a little less ego, you could have had both !

I just watched the program (DVR'ed it last night).  Much of the history I knew, but there was also things I learned.

My big complaint was how the show made it seem that Penn Station and the tunnels finally connected New York City to the rest of the country.  What about the New York Central and Grand Central Terminal?  What Penn Station and the tunnels really accomplished was connecting the Pennsylvania Railroad to Manhattan.

The most impressive thing was how when the tunnel halves met they wee off by only a 1/16th of an inch.  This in a day before computers, satellites, and GPS.

And a final thought.  Perhaps if they had built the hotel over the station then maybe Penn Station would still be here.

Stuart

Just finished watching it. What a tragic story from start to finish. I feel completely drained having watched that. So much was sacrificed to make an incredible structure, just to have it destroyed.

If you missed the program i highly suggest you watch it, even though you will be depressed afterwords. The last 10 minutes of the program just makes me sick.

And perhaps no one would care, since it would have destroyed the beauty of the original design.

Every time I look at the former Pan Am building squatting upon GCT it annoys me.

Only caught the last 15 minutes, but very moving. Structures built 2000 years ago in Rome have been preserved, structures built in Europe 1000-1500 years ago are preserved. Our noble structures get knocked down and replaced by souless glass boxes, all for a quick buck. Pretty revolting value system in this country, that rewards only a handful of creeps.

       There are still some majestic train stations extant: Cincinnati Union Terminal + post office + roundhouse (recently torn down, I understand) and the Western Hills viaduct (a unified project undertaken during the dark days of the Depression). This is an absolutely stunning architectural masterpiece and a must see if one is in Cincinnati. They have turned it into a museum, as it is owned by the city, not a group of railroads, hence why it was preserved. Additionally, 1/2 of Chicago Union Station is preserved, as is Grand Central. 

Here is a link to an on-line copy of the video

Watched it lastnight too...PRR where a bunch of dumb A...They love to destroy beautiful things...Like this station...also there proto type steam locos..S1 duplex S2 turbine Q1 duplex Q2 duplex and the T1 duplex.....bet  A.J. Cassatt and the designer are rolling over there graves when PRR demolished Penn station..

If you missed it, you can stream it

here.

Bob

Thanks for the posting, I found it quite interesting.

I remember this tragic event as a youngster.

Thought the end of the show was a bit abrupt, could have added the new transition with the MS Garden.

PATH and the LIRR should have bought it as it could have been part of the MTA today.

But as history shows, greed along with the Airlines killed the RR’s.

Great program. It left me wondering about the future of Penn Station and what it might be like in 10 years: Revitalized and returned to its original grandeur? or the same ugly overcrowded subway-like underworld; or worse: TRUMP CENTRAL STATION!

There will be massive changes to the passenger traffic with the new LIRR access to Grand Central so the purpose/need for Penn Station will shift.

the east side access project into GCT will accomodate LIRR trains, as studies have found close to 50% of riders work closer to GCT than NYPenn. problem is, like the stupid ARC tunnel, the tracks will come into Manhattan close to 150' below ground. an incredibly dangerous situation in a fire.

the proposed Gateway tunnels into NY Penn will accomodate an anticipated doubling of ridership from New Jersey over the next 20 years. at least now this project will bring trains onto existing trackage and not 120' below ground.

Even with the east side access, Penn Station is going to remain very busy, both because of Amtrak and NJ transit. Right now, because of limitations of the existing two tunnels, there is a limit to traffic, plus Penn Station itself has limits on how much it can handle (can be seen the way you board trains there; at GCT with Metro North, the track a train will be on is known in advance, at Penn Station they announce the track 10 minutes before departure and there is a mad scramble to get on it). 

It is hard to say what would have happened had Penn Station survived, if it had it is possible the Pennsylvania would have had to declare bankruptcy earlier and/or the Penn Central would have happened earlier without the infusion of cash from the sale (as it was, it happened, what, 3-4 years after the station was demolished?). It could be that faced with losing the building, that money would have been made available to renovate it by the state/federal government as an essential part of the transportation system. My guess is it would have hung on, and then like Grand Central, when it became a public terminal rather than privately owned, it would have been restored once sensibilities switched about transit as a needed part of infrastructure.

The current Penn Station is not a train station, it is a dismal, claustrophobic hive, and it doesn't serve its riders well at all. I am surprised NJ transit hasn't had massive lawsuits from someone getting hurt, the human rush to trains when they announce them is dangerous, and when traveling at holiday time (like the days before thanksgiving), it is like being in a cattle pen, literally. I am not impressed by them refusing to renew MSG's lease (which doesn't expire for 10 years, folks), I suspect if they in fact are able to get the Dolans out of there (which I would not bet on, given the kind of power and money they have, despite producing mostly mediocre sports teams), you won't see a new Penn Station, I would bet good money that they keep the current underground hive , put a fresh coat of paint on it, and then sell off the rights to where MSG was to the highest bidder, that area of Manhattan is becoming the next boom area. Given the cost of any potential replacement, it is unlikely that any grand structure will replace the current station. Given it is owned by Amtrak, the only way they could build a station would probably be to sell air rights, which would mean any grand structure would be out of the question, and it is highly unlikely in this day and age that the federal government would want to spend money on a new station, from what I understand the project at the Farley building has had money promised to it that hasn't shown up, for example. 

It is sad, because one lesson I wish would be learned by politicians and others is that when you have decent transit it has a ripple effect across the region. One of the prime reasons I suspect Christie canned the ARC tunnel (designed to add 2 more tubes to the existing 1909 tubes) wasn't the cost overruns or the design of the destination station, but rather in the belief that if he did this, it would mean companies leaving NYC and locating in NJ, which for a lot of reasons I think is idiotic, but that is part of the problem, that unlike planners, politicians think in terms of competition, rather than seeing things regionally. 

I truly hope something is built, but if I were a betting man I would put it on nothing happening, and if MSG gets shoved aside (which in many ways it should, in part because the Dolans are enjoying a tremendous ride on everyone's else dime, they pay very little in taxes compared to what a comparable business would), I suspect it would be replaced with glass office towers and fancy apartment buildings and high end stores, not a nice train station. 

quote:

I truly hope something is built, but if I were a betting man I would put it on nothing happening, and if MSG gets shoved aside (which in many ways it should, in part because the Dolans are enjoying a tremendous ride on everyone's else dime, they pay very little in taxes compared to what a comparable business would)

Maybe so, but how much revenue does the sales tax on all those event tickets generate? How much money gets infused into NYC by event goers?

I didn't know they were moving the LIRR out. In a way, that is really too bad. I had a friend living on LI whose offices were at 1 Penn Plaza. It was great for her to be able to get to work without taking a subway or bus. IMHO, office space above the train station would be much more valuable with the commuter trains below.

I didn't mean the LIRR was moving out of NY Penn, just that it is important to the road to get into GCT.

I'd agree a replacement grand station is not going to happen for the obvious economic reason. However the Farley post office on 8th Ave. is utilized less because of the USPS downsizing through automation and loss of mail volume. If the proposals for the station to be located at Farley ultimately do not or will not work, then a replacement building on 7th Ave would most likely be a mixed use of train station, retail and office space, and perhaps lodging as well.

I think the city has indicated it prefers some sort of greatly improved transit hub at 33rd St, precisely because the area is the next growth neighborhood. If that means booting MSG out so be it. After all, it is the Garden's fourth location in Manhattan. The city wants it over by the North river, out of the way.

I thought all the early train pics and especially movies from 100+ years ago were interesting. I always think when I see something like that, that somebody must have access to a lot of early railroads on film that could be made into a DVD many of us would like to buy.

Does anyone know if this will be airing again?

go to www.PBS.org and look up a public broadast station in your area to see when.

Thank You John Galt.  That's what i will do.........

ARC was killed to allow the transfer of funds ear marked for mass transit to shore up the nearly depleted highway trust fund.  This was apparently done to allow the gas tax to stay artificially low.

My son and I just finished watching the PBS documentary

Thank you to all who posted this information so we could watch it and learn.

It was a good documentary but they seem to have run out of time and left a lot of unanswered questions. 

What ever happened to the tunnels? Do they still use them? If so are they in good shape?

What a sin to dispose of a lot of that beautiful marble and the statues!!!

It looks like they saved the granite eagles I hope!!

I travelled through Penn Station and Grand Central Station for years between 1970 through 1977.  I remember the outline of "Homeless" guys who slept up against the corner of a wall.  We called the "bums" but these guys were merely down on their luck and had to live in Penn Station at night to use the restrooms and sleep out of the cold.  They were always in inconspicuous places.  If you hurried to your train, you missed them entirely.  Never on the main floor benches as seen in the movies.

Penn Station and Grand Central were always the great RR Stations of NYC, if not the best in the US.  It always felt great to travel through them and admire the style of the buildings. I usually stopped for a Nathan's Dog & Fries w/ a Root Beer in the tunnels leading into the main concourse.  Leaned against the wall, drink on the railing, watching the commuters like myself flash by to catch their trains. I could hear the announcements in the background;

"Now boarding on track number 9, the Silver Express..  The Silver Express is now boarding on track number 9 for Albany, Syracuse, Buffalo, Cleveland, and Chicago.  The Silver Express...  Track number 9, track number 9, the Silver Express... track number 9."

Then I had to go get my train for Newark to connect to the Jersey Central Lines for Asbury Park...Not usually announced but usually on time!  It was merely the subway connection through the WTC and Christopher St onward to Newark for the connection for the Jersey Central ending in Bay Head.

Hey..it got me through my commute from NYC to Asbury Park NJ while also attending Rutgers graduating in 1977.

I always wanted to board that Silver Express!  I guess there' still time...

For all you Twilight Zone devotees:

Willoughby...next stop Willoughby.....

I watched the program this evening.  Interesting, of course, but I agree with a few others here that it kind of left folks hanging at the end with too many obvious and obviously unanswered questions.

The tunnels and trackwork are still in daily use.  Amtrak, Long Island Rail Road, and NJ Transit run trains daily in and out of Penn Station.  As far as I know the tunnels themselves are in good shape and should last many more years.

There have photos published in many books and magazines of the ruins of the original station dumped in the Jersey Meadows.  It was a tragedy what happened to the original station.

Stuart

ARC was killed to allow the transfer of funds ear marked for mass transit to shore up the nearly depleted highway trust fund.  This was apparently done to allow the gas tax to stay artificially low.

not entirely accurate. ARC was killed by Gov. Christie because #1 it was a stupid plan and #2 because there was no guarantee the state wouldn't be left with the bill for cost overuns, which had already begun to pile up. this at a time when he was faced with tackling the pension mess he had inherited.

it was only after the project was cancelled did the state apply to have the funds diverted to the transportation trust fund, which the Feds denied.

that our low gas tax is brought up is ironic, since NJ Asm. Wisnewski, who is leading the wich hunt against the Gov, completely bailed on his plan to raise the gas tax to help the state stay solvent, because it would be political suicide for him.

quote:

who is leading the wich hunt against the Gov

What witch hunt?

No politics, please!  Stick to the Penn Station theme.