O & O-27 Car Size?

Absolutely...the O27 size is the smallest size car in O scale.  Be aware that the O27 track has very shallow ties.  Lionel O track has thicker ties.

The actual size of engines, rolling stock, etc., vary from 1/43 to 1/48.  1/48 is called "fine scale."  Really and truly, actual O scale is that one inch on the model equals four feet in real (prototype) life.  There are very few model railroad engines, cars, etc. that are actually and truly O scale size--the majority of stuff you see is undersized.  WHY?

So it will fit easier into the average person's living space.

Rice Burner,

   John you will find this varies depending on the train set from that particular era.

Your 731 freight set if I remember correctly was 027/0, it actually has the trucks to run properly on both tracks.  The size of the rolling stock can vary, however what you need to really be concerned about is the min curve the rolling stock is designed to run on, rather than the exact car size.  Some custom O guage rolling stock may very well be smaller in design than some actual 027 rolling stock, it all depends on the design of the individual car.

PCRR/Dave

Thank you Dave.  That is a better and more clear answer.  It truly depends on who made it, when they made it, etc.  

I think everything is okay to use.  I just ensure that I put the full scale stuff all on one train with a full-sized engine(s) and vice-versa.  I don't mix undersized O with full sized O.  It does look funny to me to see an 89 foot auto carrier trailing an engine that it just absolutely overwhelms in size.

I run some Weaver outside braced wood cars with Williams and MTH Railking cars and they look fine together because the wood cars were smaller prototypes.  The Weaver cars don't look good with Lionel 6464 cars as they are smaller than the Williams and MTH cars.

 I have a Lionel #731 Freight set from the fifties that I believe is O-27 Gauge and I bought a K-Line ,Phoebe Snow, Wood Sided Refer Box Car to add to the set which has O-Gauge on the box and it seems a bit smaller than the cars in the #731 Set, especially the original New Haven Box car in the Lionel #731 Set.

John

The New Haven box car in your No. 731 set should be a 6468-25.  It is a "traditional" O gauge or O-27 gauge car that is not a scale model of any particular real world freight car. 

If your K-line reefer is a K642 it would be shorter then the Lionel 6468 box car.  A K-line 742 reefer would be larger the the K642 and about the same size as a Lionel 6464 or 6468 box car.

Lionel, MTH and Atlas all have O and O-27 sized toy train product lines.  And they all have O scale product lines. 

Lionel calls its toy trains "traditional."  Since the 1970s Lionel's  scale products are marketed as "Standard O." Some of them, like the Lionel PS-1 box car, are well regarded by 2 and 3 rail O scale modelers as very dimensionally accurate and well detailed.

MTH calls their toy oriented products "Rail King" and of those product numbers begin with a 30-.  Some of the Rail King freight cars are 1:48 scale.  They are generally based on pre WW II cars that were of smaller size and do not dwarf more fanciful cars.  Some Rail King steam and diesel locomotives are 1:48 scale and are advertized as Rail King Scale.  MTH's highly detailed O scale models are in their "Premier" line and have 20- product numbers.

Atlas sells O scale models under their "Master Line" and "Traiman" brands.  Trainman models are 1:48 scale but less detailed and lower priced.  Atlas sells their toy train products under the "Industrial Rail" banner.

I don't have any 027 trains. But I know that the cars are significantly shorter.

My question is how much shorter.

If a 40 ft boxcar is 10" long in 1/48th scale, how long is a typical O-gauge 40 ft boxcar and a typical 027 40 ft boxcar?

I could be mistaken but, I don't believe any Postwar period ever mentioned "size" in their descriptions. Another words, I don't ever remember seeing a catalog from the 1950's described a "40' " boxcar. It would simply be listed as a boxcar. About the only descriptive difference I remember was a "Double Door" box car. But still no mention of 40', 50' or whatever. With the exception of Atlas and Weaver, Descriptives probably didn't start until perhaps the 1980"s?

So, as mentioned previous, there were no standards for manufacturers to follow. I betcha a 40' boxcar from Lionel, MTH, Weaver, Williams, and K-line all put side by side would have differences in length, width, height.

So for a new guy who is looking for some sort of consistency could get flustered rather quickly. 

 Look for 1/48 scale on the description, that should help.

Just run 'em all, like John C. said.  If you look at real trains in vintage movie footage, boxcars can be of quite varied size.

This subject is more complicated than it should be mainly due to terminology differences over the years.

When I was growing up (late 60s thru early 80s), my Grandpa referred to his stuff as O27 and my Uncle's as O-Gauge.  But, there was as much commonality as there were differences.  The main difference was track.....my uncle's O-Gauge had a higher profile (taller) which provides better electrical connectivity, 31" diameter curves, and O22 switches with separate power terminals and non-derailing.  The O27 track was shorter, came with 27" curves, and 1121 switches that used only track power and didn't have non-derailing features.  RE:  O27 was a bit cheaper.

When it came to locomotives and rolling stock, my uncle had two sets that were two big to handle the 27" curves of O27....the Virginian Trainmaster set and the Santa Fe F3s with 15" passenger cars.  In today's vernacular these engines were (or were close to) 1:48 scale.  But, even though my uncle ran "O Gauge", some of his stuff ran fine on O27 like his 2023 UP FAs and a 2-6-2 steamer.  He did not own the 773 4-6-4 Hudson which was, I think, the only steam engine close to 1:48 scale in that era, nor did he own the 2-8-4 Berkshire which I believe was rated for minimum 31" curves.

The problem is that O27 does not always mean non-scale or semi-scale.  My grandpa's O27 stuff included a 0-4-0 1656 steam switcher and an NW-2 diesel switcher both of which I'm told are close to 1:48 scale.  But, because yard switchers are generally small, a scale-sized model can handle very tight curves.

I ended up inheriting my grandpa's O27 collection.  I've found that Lionel Traditional, MTH Rugged Rails, and Atlas Industrial Rail are safe matches.  MTH Rail King is at least a little larger and, in some cases, absurdly larger, so I'm very careful with Rail King purchases.  K-line items are usually safe for size matches unless they specifically say "O Scale".

Some of these distinctions are no longer relevant.  If you run O27 tubular track, you can now purchase 42" and 54" curves to allow for operation of bigger engines and rolling stock. 

Hope that helps.

All five of these boxcars are made to run on O or 027 track:

TrainsRMe

Great shot to show the relative sizes of what is called O clearly. Is it possible to ID the cars for us?

Scotie

It would be great if a majority of the manufacturers would come up with a standard for future buyers.  I'm thankful to have an exclusive "local" O scale shop so I may see a lot of products prior to purchasing them.

I really want to buy things of the same scale regardless....

Some of the early O-27 was actually 3/16" (1:64) scale. American Flyer started it before WWII, then Marx and even Lionel to a degree used 3/16" scale. Most all of Marx "scale" O-gauge trains are 3/16", the big tin #21 EMD A units being the main exception.

Scotie, what we have here, from top to bottom in the first photo or left to right in the lower photo, are a Weaver 40' DL&W, an unknown maker of NH (but may be based on the AMT/KMT mold), Lionel Penn 19212 (6464 size), Lionel NYC X3464 and Lionel 9040 Wheaties.

There is such a drastic difference from smallest to largest that I don't usually run the smallest and the largest in the same train.  Rather, I may couple up the Weaver with cars down to the X3464 size, or the Wheaties size with cars up to the NH size in a consist (if that makes any sense).  

A picture is worth a thousand words.

I am definitely saving these two pictures! Thanks for posting. I've been wondering about this exact subject and asked a similar question last year. I got a lot of the same answers mentioned here but as they say, "a picture is worth...'

 So what you are saying is, even though the cars are O or O-27 gauge and they should all be the same size for these gauges, the manufactures of the cars use

different methods to calculate the scale of the cars and also the time the cars where produced also is a factor on the size of the cars.

 Am I at least in the same ballpark?

 When I bought the Phoebe Snow Refer Car, I saw O gauge on the box and I thought that it would match my Lionel # 731 Set cars perfectly but after putting the car in the set I quickly saw the difference in size with the rest of the cars, especially the New Haven Box Car.

 If you want to purchase a separate car for a certain train set like I did, what do you have to do to get the same size car to match the set cars?

 The Phoebe Snow Refer Car I purchased was a special edition car and its not like I had a lot of choice of different companies to buy this car so it would be an exact match, size wise, to match my Lionel 731 Set Cars.

 K-Line was the only company that I know of that manufactured this Phoebe Snow Refer Car so I had to buy this companies rolling stock if I wanted this particular car.

 Can anyone explain to me how you figure these scale ratios out?

Thanks,

John

Question 1:  

 So what you are saying is, even though the cars are O or O-27 gauge and they should all be the same size for these gauges, the manufactures of the cars use

different methods to calculate the scale of the cars and also the time the cars where produced also is a factor on the size of the cars.

 Am I at least in the same ballpark?  

Just a point of clarification...people use the terms scale and gauge interchangeably. That is incorrect.  Gauge is only the distance between the rails.  Scale has to do with the proportion of the object to real life.

I'm certain this doesn't answer your question but please don't ask me why/how the various manufacturers decide to build something to what size they decide.  I imagine a lot has to do with money.

There are no standards in O gauge.  If enough of us would ever get together and pressure the manufacturers by not buying anything except whatever the agreed standard was that would work.  It's also a pipe dream and incredible long shot.

Question 2:  If you want to purchase a separate car for a certain train set like I did, what do you have to do to get the same size car to match the set cars?

Go to a local place and take one with you to match up or ask an on-line seller to give you the exact dimensions of the piece--many do. 

Question 3:

Can anyone explain to me how you figure these scale ratios out?

The actual meaning of O scale is 1/48.  It is also referred to as quarter inch scale mean one inch on the model is four feet in real life, i.e., a forty foot boxcar in real life is ten inches long in O scale.

I hope that helps.

Most people don't...try to figure out the scale ratios that is. The only place where you expect a consistent scale is with the high-end products specifically billed as (or implied to be) scale-proportioned. Starter-set trains (especially from the postwar period)...weren't.

When these "traditional size" cars were developed in the mid-20th century, they were developed as toys, and there wasn't any thought given to keeping a consistent scale throughout the lineup, much less co-ordinating with other manufacturers. The only numbers you'll see here are made-up ratios, since a good number of postwar-peroid models aren't even based upon specific prototypes where you could compare blueprints to derive a specific ratio of reduction.

Besides, during that period, real freight trains had highly inconsistent rooflines, providing even less incentive for toy train companies to do so. In contrast, HO and N scales were created with scale fidelity in mind, and have no "baggage" in the form of a large installed base of product built with no specific scale in mind.

---PCJ

After a while you will get a feel for what boxcar is what size.

For the most part the wheels and trucks for 3-rail rolling stock are roughly the same size. Take another look at the photo provided by TrainsRMe above.

You can judge what size the boxcar is by simply looking at the scale of the car to its trucks, and by looking at the distance between the trucks.

O gauge track and O27 gauge track are the same

from out side rail to out side rail. Its the heighth

of the track that's different.

O gauge has a higher profile as compared to O27

lower profile.

Lionel first started making O gauge track and when they

started putting sets together, they put the cheaper O27

track in sets.

There is a lot of good info that should help clarify things in the last few posts.  Just to illustrate John C.'s distinction between scale and gauge, look at this photo.  Both cars are O-gauge because they were made to run on O-gauge track.  But I don't believe that anyone would ever confuse one for the other.

For that reason I didn't include the 6" Marx car in my original photos.  But such a ridiculous comparison should implant permanently in anyone the idea of the difference between scale and gauge.

Rice Burner - as you are modelling a vintage train, I wouldn't even think about the difference in size in  the new car you bought.  Just check videos of home movies from the Fifties and early Sixties and you'll see what I mean.

Exactly. This is how I think about it. It's all O-gauge since "gauge" is the distance between the outside rails.

For Rice Burner:

The term "O27" is a little misleading, at least it was to me at first. The "27" refers to the minmum radius of a curve. "O" or "O31" refers to track with a minimum radius of a curve.

However there is another difference, the height of the rail/track. Without going into the details the "O" is taller.

This leads to 2 issues.

1) Track height incompatibility. Some switches which are made to the "O27" standard will not run all wheels/trucks and/or engines with certain types of wheels. Generally the flanges are to tall and contact areas in the switches that they shouldn't.

2) Track curve radius incompatibility. Larger rolling stock and engines won't do 27" curves. The wheels don't simply can't stay inside the rails on that sharp a turn or they so overhang as to be an eyesore or hazardous to trackside elements. The 31" curve is more or less the base standard in most of "O" railroading today. Though of course there are models of prototypes that are very large and and will only run on even larger curves 54", 60", 72", etc.

"O" railroading, being a "toy" railroad was not made in consistent sizes as can be seen in the pictures and here http://modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=5126 so you have in some cases "O27 sized" cars which are generally the smallest and can range down to 1/55 though I've seen some that are pushing S dimensions 1/64 up to true 1/48 scale cars/engines. You just have to look at a lot of cars to get a feel for it. And then decide if it matters to you or not.

Frank

When I bought the Phoebe Snow Refer Car, I saw O gauge on the box and I thought that it would match my Lionel # 731 Set cars perfectly but after putting the car in the set I quickly saw the difference in size with the rest of the cars, especially the New Haven Box Car.

Is this the car you have, K762-1471?

If so it was made about 50 years after your 6468 box car.  Why would you expect a 50 year old toy to perfectly match something made 50 years later by another company?

Can anyone explain to me how you figure these scale ratios out?

Sure

If you buy Atlas Master Line, Atlas Trainman, Lionel Standard O or MTH Premier you will be buying a 1:48 scale model.  If you buy something else you may be buying a 1:48 scale model, a scale model of some other ratio, a toy that has been "selectively compressed" from a real world prototype or simply a toy based on nothing more than the designers imagination and sense of what looked appealing to children or the parents who bought toys for them.

If you decide to go the all 1:48 scale route you should be aware that real world freight cars, even box cars and reefers, were never made to perfectly match each other. 

I have no problems with the difference with the terms of Gauge and Scale, the term gauge measures the distance between the outer rails of the track, as noted, and the term scale is a comparison of the size of a model compared to the  size of the real life item, expressed as a ratio, for example 1:48, what I wanted to know is what the first number represents and what the second number of the ratio represents.

 If something is 1:48 is the first number one inch of the model verses 48 inches of the real life item?

Thanks,

John

Yes

One unit to 48 units.  That can be inches, feet, meters, miles etc.

1:48 scale is convenient for use with the English system of measurement since one foot has 48 quarter inches.  One O scale foot is a quarter inch on a ruler.

Yes, it's just a ratio, i.e. 1/48.  And 1:48 is the easiest of all the scales, at least for me, to work with mathematically.

And I truly wish the manufacturers would adhere to this scale.  Good luck, huh?

Ted,

 That is the car I bought.

 Why would I not expect it to be the same size of the cars in my fifty year old Lionel set? Maybe it would be the same, maybe it would not, in this case it was not the same size.

 The bottom line of this whole issue is that different manufacturers, use different criteria for the same scale and sometimes  they also used different criteria for the same scale based on the time period the model item was produced. Kapesh!

 Enna or No?

John

Yes.

Rice Burner:

That is correct, a ratio is the same unit on both sides 1:48 is one inch to 48 inches or one foot to 48 feet. (or Yards, Meters, Miles, etc.)

Just remember, exact size is not required, as the picture above points out in the distance, the Real cars are not all the same size anyway.

I run mixed non scale Post War, Modern and in between cars from various companies.

They look fine, I just keep them away from Scale cars, those really do not mix with the non scale ones.

I got one scale boxcar by mistake a while back, it's on my list of things to sell for cash to get new items.

John C.,

 That's all I needed to know, I think for some reason this topic became a lot more complicated than it needed to be. Wow!

Thanks,

John

Russell,

 Thanks for clarifying the other half of my above question.

 It is just like missing two cycle engine oil.

 Another good example  of scale irregularities is the difference in size of Lionel #266 set and a Lionel #293 set that I own, both sets are O-gauge but there is world's of difference in their size.

Thanks,

John

TrainsRMe:

I love the group pictures you take. This one rivals the Santa Fe cab unit portrait of a few days ago.

Thanks,

Bob

Thank you, Bob - I appreciate that.   What I try to do is to be helpful by supplying photos that illuminate the topic under discussion.  As one poster said in this thread, "A picture is worth a thousand words", and I was actually surprised that no poster before me had offered a photo.

One more point, Rice Burner, if you're just starting up.  Might be a nit, but if you're doing any carpentry, it will matter.

People often interchange radius and diameter.  The 27" and 31" curves for a circle with a DIAMETER of 27" or 31" respectively, not radius.