seems like there's some new players offering more reasons to jump to HO scale.
How can HO offer more precise detailing than O?
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Amazing
Because US 0 scalers, and those who model US railroads in 0 are prepared to accept second best from the plastic manufacturers and all the compromises involved in converting 3r to 2r. The Atlas trinity tanks did not even have the right details in regards to the fuel filler caps and valves atop the tank cars. I have some so I am as guilty as the next man of accepting and purchasing mediocrity. Perhaps HO'ers are more discerning and discriminating.
Opinion.
n.
In this forum are members who are working to up grade their layouts and rolling stock. In this forum are members who suck up substandard products like they are composed of mother's milk. How we spend our money is up to the individual. Welcome to the United States of America. John
In answer to the original question, No they probably don't give a ****************.
I think the HO folks also sell a LOT more product which gives them a little more room to do things like this. HO is a much bigger market and almost all of the HO hobbyists are very detail oriented, prototypically minded, etc. Basically they all want the same detail and everything needs to be prototypical.
I don't think that's the case in O gauge, it seems to be much more diverse with folks wanting all kinds of different things...toy trains, hi-rail, 3RS, 2RS and etc. So, I believe the train companies in O have to make compromises to try and appeal to a much more diverse market than HO.
Joe: I have a hard time accepting inaccurate models. Sunset continues to have problems with their quality control and bad research as Santiago had pointed out with his Rio Grande models that he superbly reworked. Atlas standards seem to have fallen, MTH well what can I say? High end brass is all that is available. There just seems to be too few who want accurate models. So sad to say!
George
I agree with what's been said here 100% and it's a sad situation especially since O got things started. Manufacturers aren't worried according to what I've been told by others on this site,as O is dying compared to HO&N,so they're not coming out with new products because of lack of demand. O doesn't have the detail,rolling stock,diesels,shelf couplers,etc. where HO does so why choose O Scale?
I'm hanging on by the skin of my teeth,so-to-speak,because of the size of the rolling stock & detail on some rolling stock from Atlas. This isn't weighing out the longer I go,so I guess it's time to stop fighting myself & go where the most of what I want is,and make the best of the decrease in size. I don't WANT to leave O,but if O Scale is headed for an eventual demise,there's no use striving to end up in a scale that's no longer there.
Just My Opinions.
Al Hummel
My feeling is that the lack of new product is related to the lack of competition in O Scale. However, this is a double-edged sword since the lack of competition is probably what is keeping some current O Scale manufacturers in the O Scale game as it is. O scale generally yields a higher profit margin, which what manufacturers like. However, with increased competition entering the game, that profit margin begins to fall, which is one of the reasons that HO manufacturers don't have it all that grand - they have a wider audience to sell to but pricing is tighter due to aggressive competition. Note the big pricing related bullet in the ad in the original post.
Now... the investment in tooling and machinery to make O scale sized products goes up exponentially, which is the reason the current O Scale players that have been able to make the jump to O Scale kinda have a nice little buffer between them and the HO manufacturers looking to steal some of their pot of gold. Therefore, do the HO manufacturers take the risk of being able to make the return on their increased investment by jumping to O Scale and its higher profit margin but limited O Scale sales potential. All while knowing that they may even drive down that very same profit margin so cherished by adding even more competition to the limited O Scale pool. Or do the current HO manufacturers continue to slug it out on the high volume play with the existing HO manufacturer pool with a reduced outlay in tooling and equipment. Decisions.... Decisions....
Scott
Hi Al
Maybe I'm missing something. I thought that O scale was the home of the scratch builder. Some manufacturers are dabbling, but there isn't the economy of scale found in HO.
Since I joined the forum you have been complaining about it. I just feel that you misunderstand the context. To get the benefits from the heft of O scale, you need to put in extra work.
It will be a lot slower than the "shake the box" paradigm of HO, but you can focus on the piece of rolling stock you lust after, buy something close and then super detail it yourself - like I did with my Weaver GP 38 - or scratch build from the rails up - like I did with my rolling stock.
I don't think that O scale is "no longer there." I think that it's, as it always was.
It's a modellers' scale. It's demanding, but the rewards are great. 
Cheers
Scott,
My question is,why are the O manufacturers at the shows complaining about the small sales volume forcing them to be unable to make new O Scale products?
I'm not too bright in the head,so excuse my lack of reasoning.
Al Hummel
rtr12 posted:I think the HO folks also sell a LOT more product which gives them a little more room to do things like this. HO is a much bigger market and almost all of the HO hobbyists are very detail oriented, prototypically minded, etc. Basically they all want the same detail and everything needs to be prototypical.
HO isn't all finely detailed product. I think it's instructive to know that things like the good old Athearn F7 and generic short (70') passenger cars are STILL available in HO:
as are many Athearn and Roundhouse freight cars based on 1950'-60's tooling.
MRC/Model Power also offers products using old Mantua/Tyco and Marx tooling.
Rusty
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Thanks Rusty, after thinking about this thread for a while, I was just going to comment on the number of youtube videos available showing HO folks customizing their trains and adding details that the factory forgot. Seems they have to fix the prototypical details as well as their manufacturers don't always get it 100% either.
Also, I think Max is certainly correct about having to do some customizing on O gauge items. Wasn't it only 30 years or so ago that all we had was the so called 'toy trains'? Maybe with the exception of a few really expensive brass items? And I am no expert, but I didn't even know there was a 2RS branch of the O gauge hobby until 4-5 years ago, thought it was ALL 3 rail? So, although 2RS seems to be gaining popularity, I am thinking that is still a pretty small branch of the hobby and a pretty small market.
I got back in the hobby in 2011 after a long hiatus of many years and I still can't believe the selection we have compared to the 'good old days' back when I left. Of course, I was starting over from scratch and all I want is command control, but there really hasn't been a catalog since 2011 that I couldn't have spent my entire yearly train budget on. I am still overwhelmed by the amount of product available. It's still just amazing to me and really looks like the best times and not the worst to me.
This is all IMO, of course, as I really don't know the status of any of the companies or their outlooks for the future of the O gauge hobby, but the O gauge future still looks bright to me. They do have to have something to say when asked about new products (or lack of) at shows though, and maybe also try to promote a few sales at the same time...now where's my shades? 
MaxSouthOz posted:Hi Al
like I did with my Weaver GP 38 -
.....
I don't think that O scale is "no longer there." I think that it's, as it always was.
It's a modellers' scale. It's demanding, but the rewards are great.
Cheers
Who's Al? (all?)
I don't remember your Weaver?
Did you read the ad's caption?
MaxSouthOz posted:Hi Al
Maybe I'm missing something. I thought that O scale was the home of the scratch builder. Some manufacturers are dabbling, but there isn't the economy of scale found in HO.
Since I joined the forum you have been complaining about it. I just feel that you misunderstand the context. To get the benefits from the heft of O scale, you need to put in extra work.
It will be a lot slower than the "shake the box" paradigm of HO, but you can focus on the piece of rolling stock you lust after, buy something close and then super detail it yourself - like I did with my Weaver GP 38 - or scratch build from the rails up - like I did with my rolling stock.
I don't think that O scale is "no longer there." I think that it's, as it always was.
It's a modellers' scale. It's demanding, but the rewards are great.
Cheers
Precisely! Your viewpoint is a hard sell to those who want to open up a box and grab a ready to run product. But I completely agree with your comments and I also apply the craftsmanship gladly.
Bob
Limey posted:In answer to the original question, No they probably don't give a ****************.
Yeap, I think this is accurate. I just wanted to put it out there.
I'm not talking to the hollow track, thumbtack, claw and flange crowd. I didn't post it on the 3 rail section again, did I?
Not just to ruffle the same feathers again.
O scale as a "scratch builders" scale is old school for the most part. New recruits into O Scale want RTR products, I, myself, included. Sunset has raised the bar on detail specific models. They still are going through a learning curve on the best sound system, correct research and quality control. I believe if the O Scalers had plastic models as Joe has shown on the Scale Trains advertisement above, there would be a lot more modelers tempted to do O Scale.
George
Engineer-Joe posted:
MaxSouthOz posted:Hi Al
like I did with my Weaver GP 38 -
.....
I don't think that O scale is "no longer there." I think that it's, as it always was.
It's a modellers' scale. It's demanding, but the rewards are great.
Cheers
Who's Al? (all?)
I don't remember your Weaver?
Did you read the ad's caption?
Al is Al Hummel - to whom I was replying.
That his how he signed his post.
Al remembers the Weaver. Would you like me to post you the link, so you can read all about it?
I have no idea what an "ad's caption" may be. What ever it is, I would have read it. I read everything. 
Why do you ask?
I worked in a hobby shop for many years and the ratio was ALWAYS 25 HO engines to each O scale engine regardless of 3r or 2r. When G scale came along it was just about the same ratio.
"it's a sad situation especially since O got things started." That's not exactly true! You see in the beginning O scale was the HO compared to STANDARD gauge! Russ
MaxSouthOz posted:Engineer-Joe posted:
MaxSouthOz posted:Hi Al
like I did with my Weaver GP 38 -
.....
I don't think that O scale is "no longer there." I think that it's, as it always was.
It's a modellers' scale. It's demanding, but the rewards are great.
Cheers
Who's Al? (all?)
I don't remember your Weaver?
Did you read the ad's caption?
Al is Al Hummel - to whom I was replying.
That his how he signed his post.
Al remembers the Weaver. Would you like me to post you the link, so you can read all about it?
I have no idea what an "ad's caption" may be. What ever it is, I would have read it. I read everything.
Why do you ask?
Ooops, thought it was to me. Didn't know why you pegged me as complaining?
I think anyone can model in any scale. So I never understood why the O builders scale name survives to this day?
Maybe bigger is easier to scratch build? I'd apply that to G scale, long before O then.
The ad says more of everything, without spending more.
Points all well taken here.
I jumped in "blind" to the O scale part of the hobby thinking to be able, (from a reasonable standpoint),to buy the same type of models as in HO. I shouldn't say I came in blind,as I did a lot of research to check on the models I expected to be able to buy & was pleased. I still didn't realize the smaller market I would be faced with.
I'm not a good craftsman or electrically minded,so I'm at the manufacturer's mercy more than O Scale vet's. So that part of O Scale's understandably hard for me as well as expensive.
On the craftsman side,I've renumbered almost all my CSX 4750s,not a pro job,but not clumsy either & added conspicuity striping. I've also renumbered 4 5161s.
I have 19 used Metamucil cans,soon 20,that I'm cutting the tops off & plan to cement them together to form grain bins. Not HO quality,but I think in time they'll be pretty nice. I put a craftsman elevator together & several Pikestuff buildings together in HO & loved it. I've also painstakingly taken dimensions off HO buildings to make O Scale models out of.
So,not at all bragging,but if the funds hold out and I don't have to move from my current house,I'm staying in O Scale.
I took a walk,did more thinking, and still plan to stay in O Scale because I think it's worth it!!
Al Hummel
Nearly 40 years ago I chose USA O Scale as my scale for life it had nothing to do with details, building things, or prestige, I just liked the size of the locos and cars and I still do, never regretted the change in fact as I get older and my facilities depreciate, movement, sight, etc, I know I made the right decision.
I'm a train runner not a looker and I'm proud that my layout is very efficient almost hassle free without spending a million dollars. Roo.
Great news, Al.
By the way, the work I've seen from you so far is excellent.
IMHO the answer to the original question is mainly market size (sales volume). The HO market's size enables more investment in research and tooling of multiple variants and higher levels of detail. It's also partly that the HO manufacturers don't have to cater to the majority of their market wanting 3-rail/tight-radius/lots-of-handling-including-by-younger-children/legacy-electronics versions of their models. This enables the HO manufacturers to apply more of the fragile details, not have to compromise wheelbase, truck centers, clearance for large flanges etc., and to include the latest control/sound/lighting as well.
TBH I think 'twas ever thus. There's been nothing I've bought for my 2-rail scale railroad in the last 25 years that hasn't needed at least some work. From coupler and wheelset swaps through to new chassis, trucks, driveline, motor, decoder, speaker LEDs, added brass and plastic details and repaints, it's the nature of the beast. Max's GP38-2 thread is a classic example of what it takes to make 2-rail work the way the HO equivalent does out of the box these days.
But for me the reward is the mass, momentum, sound and lighting realism that 2 rail O scale railroading brings. Sure, I'd like to be able to just shake the box sometimes but I soon get over that when I run a freshly upgraded loco on the layout.
Max,
Thank you!
Al Hummel
Roo,
I'm glad you chose O as your scale too! You do a fine job!! A real inspiration to me!
Al Hummel
Engineer-Joe posted:
I think anyone can model in any scale. So I never understood why the O builders scale name survives to this day?
There are S Scalers that maintain the same delusion...
Rusty
Sorry, Joe.
The forum's running slow down my end this morning.
I see what you mean by the ad.
I bought an Atlas SDP 35 - and while the China drive leaves a lot to be desired, I reckon the body detailing is excellent.
As good as any of my HO locos.
I guess that I don't pay alot of attention to precise detailing. Yeah I would wonder if I saw a BNSF painted loco with Souther Pacific logo or a Western Pacific Feather emblazoned on the sides put out by a vendor. But I am just not into precise colors or under carriage rigging or rivet counting, or as mentioned above the tank car caps don't have the right widgets on it. Great if you care about such things, but these are toys first and foremost. Now on the other hand if I paid really big, BIG bucks, then I would be critical of colors and widgets and rivets and dimensions etc.
For me this is a relaxation toy train hobby where I watched my loco pull cars around my non-proto three rail track. If it quacks like a duck, waddles like one and looks like one, good enough for me.
Each to his own.
Alan Hummel posted:Scott,
My question is,why are the O manufacturers at the shows complaining about the small sales volume forcing them to be unable to make new O Scale products?
I'm not too bright in the head,so excuse my lack of reasoning.
Al Hummel
Menards is making new affordable products but excluding them, O scale trains are very expensive. IMO, its hard to attract new modelers as most of the market is priced out of the range of the younger generation. The disposable income available to this market is only so much as you are relying on older people to buy the products. This demographic is rapidly changing. Additionally, the market is flooded with used stuff. Put it all together and the O gauge importers are all going after the same narrow market. You can only sell so much with that. As for detail, I am happy with what is available. People don't come to view a layout with a microscope.
I think I am lining up with Pete M above. I do not need, nor do I even want, perfect models. If I did need or want such things, I would own a Henry Bultmann 4-10-2, a bunch of Key PAs, and some Beaver Creek models. I am much happier burning my money up with Avgas, and building my own 4-10-2s.
Blaming the manufacturers or importers is not fair - they produce only what they can make a decent profit on. Obviously, high end stuff is not profitable for folks like Bultmann. Key seems to be doing ok, but note that Overland is not rushing to bring in more nearly perfect imports.
Blaming the purchasers is even further off the mark. We are not obliged to buy anything. We do not have to demand perfection, and should not be blamed for whatever commercial products are currently available.
And murtherfore, some of us are not interested in plastic, no matter how inexpensive and superior. Those Zephyr cars are gorgeous, but I shall keep my extruded cars.
Opinion.
Joe,
I tend to be in the camp of Limey. More often than not, what drives importers and manufacturers can be a number of reasons, and not necessary related to the market. It is also true that the multiple personalities of the hobby make it difficult to ascertain who will be your customer for a product, and alas, the almost indifferent attitude of many hobbyists to accept less because it's cheaper. So the prototypical modeler lanquishes. I doubt this will change in a the next generation. As for O Scale being a builder's scale, well, sorry, but that's over. Come now, what do you want to spend your time on. I've heard the moaning, over and over again, during the last 20 years. "Woa unto the hobby, nobody wants to scratch build engines any more. Noboby wants to scratch build freight cars out of cardstock anymore. Nobody wants to use these decals...etc." Now during all these laments, no one mentions that the engines, freight cars, decals, et. al. are 50-60 years out of date compared to what we see on the tracks today. O scale modelers are not any different from HO or N scale modelers just because we're our trains are bigger. O Scale prototypical modelers want the same "open the box and run it" as HO and N scale. I'd rather be building the track, assembling scenery and structures, and watch the trains run. You only get so much time Gentlemen. If building your trains from scratch or spending many hours highly modifying an existing product gives you pleasure, more power to you. I would settle for an additional 100,000 O Scale prototypical modelers who demand high levels of detail and quality, true to the prototype (and, of course, interested in current prototype modeling, LOL!). Meanwhile, we the minority of O Scale (prototype modelers) will lanquish, taking and using what we can find amongst the detrious. So what is the answer? When current manufacturers can no longer extract a meaningful profit out of our hobby, they will disappear, and O Scale will drift back into oblivion until the next Overland Models comes along. Until then, let's use what what we can find, and dance!
I agree with everyone here. It is going to take a higher standard of models like HO are producing to attract people to O Scale.
Stephen
Eh. Fluff. Bah humbug. I'll stick with o scale. Have to scratch every **** thing but that's fine...
I think it's a combination of things from product availability, cost, space available to the individual and details....time will tell what will happen.
The cost issue is a bit bogus. You can buy an Atlas O scale, let's say, a GP35 with sound list price about $500. HO with sound, $300. Not such a huge difference if you consider we only need 1/2 as much product to fill the room. Joking, of course. O Scale? They will have to pry it from my cold, dead fingers.
Dick
Dennis LaGrua posted:Menards is making new affordable products but excluding them, O scale trains are very expensive. IMO, its hard to attract new modelers as most of the market is priced out of the range of the younger generation. The disposable income available to this market is only so much as you are relying on older people to buy the products. This demographic is rapidly changing. Additionally, the market is flooded with used stuff. Put it all together and the O gauge importers are all going after the same narrow market. You can only sell so much with that. As for detail, I am happy with what is available. People don't come to view a layout with a microscope.
Be careful Dennis! In a similar thread I got some angry responses because I was "baby boomer bashing". You stated "The disposable income available to this market is only so much as you are relying on older people to buy the products", I agree.
We young-ins can't afford to get into this hobby because all of us 30 and 40 year olds are paying for the social security, medicare-caid, pensions etc... of the baby boomers. In essence, I'm subsidizing the O scale hobby because the boomers don't have to pay for all of the above mentioned entitlements - hence, they can afford to buy pieces of rolling stock for $80.
Gen X'ers unite! We demand our O gauge entitlements!
Ps.. I'm clearly bored.
I'm fine with what's available...as I can't afford most of it anyway. I've always had trains, and I couldn't imagine being able to buy every single thing I wanted. Somehow I've survived...
There are a lot of reasons why someone chooses a particular scale, and a good number of people jump around from one scale to another. Some people model in a particular scale just because a favorite locomotive is available in that scale.
Jeff C
TrainGuyMcGee posted:Gen X'ers unite! We demand our O gauge entitlements!
Oh my....
N&W thank you for getting my failed attempt at humor. I shouldn't post on the forums after having one too many Easter Eve cocktails.
