Odd problems with two engines.

Hi Paul,

In my opinion it's your track, either the track needs to be cleaned. Or there's a some dead spots on your track.

Thanks,

Alex

Sounds like they are losing ground, strange though, next I would check track where this happens, last a board problem.

Repaired 2 times ?  More like track problem,,,,,,,,,is your transformer properly grounded?????

Hope John, or Bill or Chuck reads this, this is right up their alley.

Rod

I should add there are a lot of great fellers and gals on here who are

 smarter than me, ALex being one too.

Rod

I agree with Alex, sounds like dirty track or dead spots. I also have those two engines, and I've noticed that the Lionel one in particular is hyper-sensitive to any kind of track problems. The 0 gauge chairman at our museum used to joke that we could use my Northern to test for bad or dirty track. 

Is your TMCC Command Base plugged directly into a properly grounded 3-prong outlet?  A friend of mine had a couple of locomotives that would lose sound as you describe.  The sound would usually, but not always, cut out in the same area of the layout.  He cleaned his track and still had the problem.

His Command Base was plugged into a power strip with a surge protector.  Not seeing any other obvious problem, we tried plugging the base directly into the wall and that cured his problem.  Note that using a cheap power strip with NO surge protection also works.

One more vote for dirty track, even though your track may "look" clean its possible theres still a film of dust or whatever.

Regardless, when issues like this pop up, I always clean the track. Its the first easiest step in the "process of elimination" when diagnosing.

If its been awhile I'd recommend cleaning it with an abrasive track cleaning block, like Lionels track cleaning eraser, or a "brite boy" block. Then wipe it with a liquid, I prefer 91% ispropyl alchohol.

Its also a good idea to clean the wheels and pickup rollers.

Erratic operation of the loco would be a signal issue. Sounds dropping out is typically an indication that the tender is losing power. A common problem over dirty track or turnouts with "dead spots" 

The newest Lionel offerings are especially sensative to dirty track. If the problem persists after cleaning the track I would investigate that section of track. Maybe the weight of the loco is causing the track to flex at the joints and a power loss, maybe an additional feeder is needed.

You can also test the area by placing the legacy tender by itself on the track. Idle sounds will startup automatically when the track is powered. Then you can roll it by hand over the offending section.

I suppose you could also use your other hand to apply pressure to any track joints there and see if theres a loose connection.

How about adding a battery (not sure about the Weaver but most Lionels had a battery optional) to eliminate the loss of sounds when the engine crosses a dead spot (turnots, etc.).

Thanx to all of you who responded to me on this issue.  As to track condition, I have really tried to keep the track clean by running a felt pad track cleaning car, then an old "Ribbonrail" track cleaning car which scraped the rail surface with carborundum pads, and then actually took some Brake Cleaner on a rag and rubbed the surface of the rails.  That track is as clean as it can get.  I have yet to build the vacuum cleaning car the Lee has described in other threads.

The Lionel S-3 has some four rollers under it and I've tried to clean them, too, while keeping the roller axles lubricated.  No other engines suffer the same problem, including my little Weaver 2-8-0, which only has two rollers.  Other steamers, diesels or electrics all keep their sound systems working all through the track route which is probably about 500 feet or so.   Have a K-Line scale Mike that runs and sounds just great; no problem with sound at all.  Same for an MTH F-7 Hiawatha streamlined Hudson.  None of the diesels share the problem.

I'm telling you, this is frustrating.  I really want to run these two engines, especially when I have company.  These are both very impressive engines and are the largest that I have.  Everything else about them work just fine;  it's only the sound that cuts out.  These two engines define frustration!

Paul Fischer

Paul,

  Since the track is clean, then there must be a dead spot in that area that is affecting those two engines. I have and work on all manufactures engines, every once in a while one of them who lose the sound going over a certain part of my main line. I tested that area with a multimeter and I found a dead spot. Once I corrected this area it didn't happen anymore.

Alex

Alex:  Thanx again.  I will, tomorrow, start checking the track in that very way, with a volt meter to see if I have any dead spots.  I still believe that my track is OK because everything else is OK, but I'm desperate and want to make sure that the layout is working well this Tuesday because I have a bunch of guys (all train people) coming over for an operating session.

Paul Fischer

Paul,

I hope everything works out for you, let me know how you make out

Thanks,

Alex

Paul,  I have a K-Line Fairbanks Morse diesel which would operate correctly, but the whistle would not operate, and a K-Line Scale Hudson which would not operate at all.  Both of these engines are equipped with TMCC.  At the suggestion of a forum member Dale, I tried tuning the pot in the TMCC command base.  Both problems were solved.  Before tuning, all my other TMCC locos worked fine, and still do after tuning. I don't know if this will be of any help but I thought I would pass it along.

Allan O

fisch330,

You didn't tell us about your electrical connection for the power supplies. The command base absolutely needs a good ground. No surge protector power strips. It may be as simple as that which was suggested.

Try that before checking the track connections.

Have you ever run these any where else and had the same issues arise?

Have had guest Legacy locos over where the sound goes off for no reason (on spotless new track) yet no TMCC pieces have the problem.

I have experienced this on only 2 of my locos, and the problem is not the track because:

The actual problem is not that the sound cuts out, but that it does not come back by

itself. 99% of my TMCC locos, when they do encounter a dead spot under the tender rollers,

regardless of what it was (dirty, switch, etc), drop out, and immediately come back when

power is restored an inch or two later. It's a hiccup.

But:

- My 5344 Hudson's old Vanderbilt tender would drop out, stay that way, but the whistle or

even throttle nudge would bring it back. This was so correctable that I did not list it

as a problem.

- However, my Legacy 2-6-6-2 will lose the sound and nothing short of an AUX1+0

will fix it - and that's annoying. Train stops. Irritating.

So, dropping out is not a problem - staying dropped is, and that is a loco issue, I'd say.  

Maybe even a design flaw, with the Legacy units - yours and mine.

Again, thanx for all your replies and thoughts.  Couple of things I should mention:  First, on the Legacy engine, the sound only cuts out when the train is going downhill.  On my layout, my folded main line goes up and down several long grades on it's normal course from one town to another.  The lowest regular point is about 40 inches above the floor rising to about 60 inches.  The sound never cuts out going uphill;  only downhill when it's not working as hard.  In one case the train goes up and down on the same piece of track.  On the other hill is a double track   Second, you don't loose control because the engine responds to throttle changes or reverse changes, only the sound goes away and the immediate "fix" is to hit the reset button, and the sound comes back on with a whistle, BUT, the darn train then comes to a quick halt and you have to start it again with the throttle knob.

Next, the TMCC S-3, will loose it's sound but all you have to do is blow the whistle and the full sounds come back on, again.  And actually, this engine sometimes will run for several minutes without dropping out, and I don't think that it has anything to do with how hard the engine is working or not.  It's just annoying.

Maybe I just ought to run other engines when guests are over.

Paul Fischer

Another quick fix/ test, would be to install a 9 volt in the tender of the legacy loco, as mentioned earlier by Doug W.

Instructions are on PG 19 of your owners manual. If you don't have it, heres a link: Lionel MR S-3 Manual

Lionel provides this option for sound dropout instances such as direction changes when running conventionally , dead spots over turnouts etc.

I still wonder if the weight of the loco along with the travel direction is finding a loose track or wiring connection.

Paul,

    If you have another sound board I would do a swap. I would also check both power and ground. I believe your loosing one or the other. You might do a reprogram but I don't think it will help.

Bill

The details of the Legacy problem make me think it might be a problem with the infrared wireless tether coming out of alignment when the engine is running downhill. Something I just learned the other day is that with Legacy, the control electronics are all in the locomotive and the tender only does sound. The wireless tether transmits engine information to the sound system. If that is coming out of alignment when the drawbar is not in tension, it might just be causing the sound to cut out. 

It's a bit far out but might be worth checking. 

Good thought, Bob.  I never gave that much thought, yet I had a bunch of problems with that infrared connection when I first got the engine.  I'm gonna go down and check to be sure that we have a good alignment and that the sender/receiver are close enough together.

Good suggestion.  i'll try it tomorrow. (Too late tonight)

Paul F