official passenger car sequence-is there one?

I have looked at many passenger train consists.  Most consists had the baggage car behind the engine.  The next car would be a combo car.  Next would come either a group of coaches or sleepers.  It depended on the railroad and if cars were going to be switched out during the trip.  Generally, all the coaches and sleepers were kept together.  A dinner was located between the group of coaches and sleepers.  This was so the first class sleeper passengers did not have to walk through the coaches to get to the dinner.

 Very few trains had vista domes.  I don't think that the N&W had any dome cars.  Some trains such as the California Zephyr had several domes.  Some dome cars were dome coaches and others were dome sleepers.   One Union Pacific train (the Portland Rose?) had a dome dinner for a short period.  Again, the sleepers and coaches were usually kept together as a group either before or after the dinner.  I usually put a dome on my model trains just before the observation car.   The observation car brings up the rear.

When I rode the modern Amtrak California Zephyr from Oakland to Chicago the train had a baggage car, a high level crew dorm car, sleepers, dinner and coaches at the rear.

I am sure there are books about the N&W streamline trains and their consists.

VIA in Canada:

The Canadian runs baggage behind the engine, then coach(s), skyline dome car, dining car, sleepers, park dome car last (dome car with bullnose tail). When the train is longer in the summer, there will be multiple skyline dome car - diner - sleeper sections.

Non-overnight trains run the baggage behind the engine, then first class, followed by coach class. No bar or lounge cars on the short runs anymore.

In the 50's, the RPO was behind the engine, along with the baggage car.

It depends on the railroad.

The DL&W streamliner Phoebe Snow 8 car train ran in this order- RPO/Baggage car, 4 coach, sleeper, diner, tavern lounge. The train stayed in this order from Hoboken NJ to Buffalo NY, the sleeper was then put on the NKP train to Chicago. From Buffalo to Hoboken was another story, baggage cars and sleepers from west railroads with enough paying passengers would keep them on their cars to new york. All headend baggage cars were before the RPO/Baggage car, then all coach cars, then all sleeper cars, diner, tavern lounge. I have videos and books showing NKP-UP-Wabash baggage and sleepers on the east bound Phoebe Snow, one video even shows some PRR cars in the mix.

If an Amtrak train is going to be split enroute, you might have a baggage, sleeper, coach, lounge, diner, coach sleeper, baggage.  The split would occur between the lounge and the diner.

The only trains which split doday on Amtrak is the EMPIRE BUILDER and the LAKE SHORE LTD.

From my years on G Scale Central, the British large scale forum, I have learned and have seen many videos and photos of European passenger trains.  It seems that baggage cars are usually at the end of the consist.  I did know why at one point, but I'll have to pose the question again over there.   

Nothing "official".   Each RR had their own policies and traditions.

But generally the train layout on through trains was:

locomotive

Headend cars - baggage, express etc

Coaches - economy class travelers, not pullmans

Diner

Pullmans and other first class cars such as a bar lounge etc.

The first class cars were put at the back end because in steam days it was cleaner and in any era quieter.   The diner was put between coaches and the first class accomodation so the riff-raff was discouraged from walking through first class to get to the diner.

Another reason for the sleepers/first class to be at the rear as they would be closer to the gates when the train was at a terminal.   John

Very interesting information, the details are great.  I looked up the duplex roomette and realized what it was-I had not thought about keeping the high rollers from the "common passenger". 

DUPLEX-ROOMETTE: This car gives Pullman passengers individual rooms and the comforts of a "hotel on wheels." The rooms, which are on two slightly varying floor levels, interlock, permitting Pullman to build 24 luxury accommodations in a single car. The roomy bed in the lower duplex slides under the floor of the adjacent room, which is two steps above aisle level. In the upper roomette, the bed swings up into the wall. The duplexes become private sitting rooms in daytime, contain their own lavatory and toilet, and heat, light and air conditioning are designed for the individual's personal control.

Two questions for our experts:

1) what do you think the internal configuration of this vista dome Lionel produced in this set is supposed to be?  Apparently it could possibly have dining / lounge, sleeping, and perhaps even crew cabins.  Any idea what Lionel was shooting for based on the window configuration? I wonder what the left side with no windows was supposed to be?

2) Were observation cars  typically open to all passengers? 

I do need to get a book or two on passenger cars!

Lionel is duplicating the prototype "Big domes"

The area under the dome was usually a lounge:

:

Dome's were available to all passengers, they were basically "non-revenue" cars as passengers would drift in and out during the trip.  Reserved seats were not sold for domes.

Rusty

Most small towns  had their own station  platform for loading and unloading passengers as well as baggage and mail.(remember the baggage carts?)  Some even had a water spout. It was easier to get everything spotted at once on the platform  with the baggage,  mail, and day coach near the head end.  Sure,  exceptions for different locations.

The N&W Powhatan Arrow consist was P1, P2, P3, DE-1, P3, P3, P4. Over time, the PA was shortened from its initial length of 7 cars.

The DE-1 diners arrived after the P1-4 cars. Prior to that, they used modernized DE Diners such as #1024. I am pleased to have one of these to go along with my new GGD cars.

Post-Wabash N&W did run dome cars acquired with that transaction. Initially dome car were not ordered due to safety concerns with existing Catenary.

On the Canadian, the first dome was used as the divider between coach class and sleeper class. The first dome was open to all passengers. The diner behind the dome was available to coach class as space permitted. Typically the coach class would eat in the first dome, which had a kitchen under the dome. The sleepers behind the first dome were not available to coach class, and there was a sign on the door window stating that this is for sleeper class only.

The dome cars had a dining area and a lounge area on each side of the dome, with a kitchen under the dome.

The rear dome car, called a "Park car" on VIA and before that CP, had 4 bedrooms ahead of the dome, a lounge with bar under the dome & a sitting lounge behind the dome. This car is for sleeper class only.

Dominic Mazoch posted:

If an Amtrak train is going to be split enroute, you might have a baggage, sleeper, coach, lounge, diner, coach sleeper, baggage.  The split would occur between the lounge and the diner.

The only trains which split doday on Amtrak is the EMPIRE BUILDER and the LAKE SHORE LTD.

The Amtrak Empire Builder, which is the train I'm most familiar with, has a crew sleeper behind the baggage. Then, as Dominic points out, come Seattle sleepers, Seattle coaches, diner, lounge, Portland coaches, and finally Portland sleepers. There is no Portland baggage car. On the westbound #7, everyone needs to be in their assigned cars when the train gets to Spokane for the split.

The concept of keeping sleepers toward the ends, front or back, is an effort to reduce walk through traffic. Coach travelers technically have no business venturing into those cars.

Many years ago, Amtrak's California Zephyr did a 3 way split at Salt Lake City. There was an LA section, an SF section, and I think the third was Portland. I had an opportunity to ride from Vegas to Denver, and in the middle of the night I was awake for the build. Of course this interesting practice has been discontinued. Las Vegas has no Amtrak service anymore, and you have to choose your west coast destination and train in Chicago.

Joe K posted:

The rear dome car, called a "Park car" on VIA and before that CP, had 4 bedrooms ahead of the dome, a lounge with bar under the dome & a sitting lounge behind the dome. This car is for sleeper class only.

On a trip from Vancouver to Winnipeg, my ex wife and I had been booked into a standard room in a regular sleeper. When the upper berth was deemed to be inoperable, we were upgraded to one of those rooms in the "Park car". Best room I ever had on a train! Very sweet (suite).

The CZ did have a PDX section at one time.

Another Amtrak train which "splits" is the TEXAS EAGLE.  Three times a week, some coaches and sleepers are interchanged with the SUNSET at San Antonio TX.

Now, in the pre Amtrak era, having the sleeps at the end of the train places those cars next to the terminal at the starting point.  However, if the train does not back in at the end point, the COACHES are nearest the terminal!

In any case, the best rule to follow is what the train you want to model did.  Any even with that, there could be some exceptions.  Research helps!

And do not forget run through cars from other trains.  This includes head end, coaches and sleeps.  And one train could be painted the same, but has cars from the lines the train ran on.  EMPIRE BUILDER, CZ, TEXAS SPECIAL, TEXAS EAGLE, CITY trains to the west coast, and trains along the east coast to Florida come to mind!  

I have always ran the engine, then baggage, combo, diner, roomette, coaches, dome cars, then observation.  In looking at some of the passengers they needed the exercise of walking up to the front of the train to get to the feeding trough (diner).

I have a few accurate scale sets of named passenger trains.  If I can find records of the actual consists, I like to run mine them in the prototypical order.  In general, I have found that, on most railroads, the higher fare passengers were toward the end of the train as was mentioned above to be away from the smoke and noise.  Diners tended to be in the middle (between coaches and sleepers if applicable).  However, I read somewhere that N&W ran the diner just ahead of the observation car on the Powhatan Arrow.  As it was explained to me, the Arrow ran in territory with lots of stations having shorter platforms and the idea was to cluster the coaches together to maximize their access to the platforms.  No idea if this is actually true but would be curious to hear if other N&W fans can confirm that or have heard something similar.  

Mike

i do not know if federal law or not, but rpo's always ran first and if baggage cars with mail were present, they also ran first so that the crew or passengers did not ever have to go thru the mail cars to get anywhere.

mikeg

For fun, try the AT&SF San Francisco Chief !  Especially from '54 to '64.   Each passenger train can be stated to be a rule in and of itself, and can vary considerably with the time period.   In the classic era, many trains had so much switching of cars and destinations, you needed an Official Guide to keep track of it all.  Which makes the whole thing even better !  The Texas Eagle / Sunset Ltd. was mentioned.....one of my contemporary favorites.   OTOH, for quality in the classic mold, it's the Canadian / Via all the way !    Now 'cuse me, while I retire to my double bedroom in the "Hidden Valley" !

The SCF was interesting.  Odd looking with Flex-Vans in the front, and High Chair coaches.  Very interesting looking train of the ATSF "Tribe".

I would think IF a passenger train made money, the "cash cow" would be in the head end cars, not the passenger.

To me, in the pre-Amtrak era, the matched consist "prime" trains were BORING!  The secondary trains, now those had a class of their own!

Now, the "RPO Rule".  If your train had a "doodlebug" with an PRO apartment, and the bug was pulling cars, things go interesting.  If the bug changed directions and had cabs at both ends, you might have an interesting situation.  One way, the RPO would be next to the operating cab.  on the reverse, not!

We watch the Amtrak Crescent come through town quite often. The order of cars depends on the direction it is traveling. It appears the engines are reversed in New Orleans, but the cars are not. They will usually be in the reverse order heading northbound. Southbound is usually Engine, Baggage, Sleepers, Dining, Lounge then Coach.

Southwest chief..the poor in the back..been there...and its who is on longer which coach your on..and they won't let you move..