okay Electrical Gurus Help

Bobbie some of theses boards will not work right on chopped sinewave transformers. Your other transformers probably putting out pure sinewave.

okay so the MTH Transformer is doing a chopped sinewave while the Postwar Zw is a pure sinewave transformer

is there anyway to get this to work on the Transformer I use for this

It would help to know what Evans product this is.  If it's one of the universal power models that runs on AC or DC, try putting a bridge rectifier and a filter cap in front of it from the track voltage, that should knock out any issues with spikes in the transformer output.

This is our new 8-LED alternator circuit. The circuit is already set up with the LEDs and you can see from the video above that they alternate and a nice slow pattern the circuit is suitable for railroad crossings, radio towers, bridges, your own ideas. The lights are on fairly long leads. The wire we have used is fine twisted magnet wire. You can have pairs of lights. One pair at one crossing, another pair for another crossing, you have 4 pairs here to use as you like.

The wig wag circuit has no on-off switch and it's made to run directly off of AC or DC power 7-19 volts. Use the accessory side or the track side on your power supply, or use a battery. There is just the one pattern. When you remove power the circuit goes off. When you add power, the circuit goes right back on to the same pattern. If you wanted to you could add a sensor to this unit such as a magnetic sensor or an optical sensor or a pressure sensor. This would allow your circuit to go on train comes by and go off when the Train passes on by.

This circuit is also configurable with options. One popular choice is to add just two LEDs: One on each side. If you use warm white for the alternating you can simulate a mars light or alternating ditch lights.

Put all of your LEDs on one side and you have simultaneous flashers. Simultaneous flashers are nice if you're trying to simulate an emergency vehicle or maintenance vehicle.

The circuit dimensions:
about 1 inch in length
a little less than a half an inch thick

This circuit is ready to run and comes fully assembled with LEDs on twisted magnet wire.

The default LEDs size on the circuit is 1 mm, a nice small LEDs.

The alternator can also handle chips, 1.8mm, 3mm or 5mm LEDs.

This is the print from their online product page

The version of this product I purchased  is a custom with only two 1.8 mm led's

in cool white and yes this is a universal it will work on AC and DC

Gunrunner John:

how about a diagram and part numbers and a short how to to do this

When it comes to these kinds of electrical circuits I am a little bit of a dunce

FWIW, if you want a great looking MARS light, try looking at these guys.

http://www.ngineering.com/lght...20the%20railroad.htm

They also have a multi-LED MARS simulator, I have one but I haven't wired it up yet.  I've used some of the single LED ones in locomotives, they're the best looking MARS simulator I've seen.

gunrunner I am hooking this into a Williams O-Gauge AC controlled loco

I do not know the first thing about trying to change ac track power to DC filtered for this to work

Here's a two component solution for getting DC from AC for conventional use.

Keep in mind,John's solution boosts voltage by 41%. Make sure you do not exceed the input limit of the device. 18VAC in is 25 volts DC out. Add a regulator if needed or reduce input voltage.

Dale H

Dale, it sounds like he's running conventional operation, so 18 volts would be a bit extreme.  However, you could either add a regulator if necessary, or use this alternate configuration for high voltages like command operation.

The module is spec'd to operate on up to 19VAC. The Z-1000 brick only puts out 18VAC.  At full-throttle, the Z-controller should only put out an 18VAC sinewave (essentially unchopped).  Have you tried the 14VAC accessory output of the Z-1000 brick?

Since Evans already modified your circuit by adding a capacitor, they understand the issue of the chopped sinewave.  You might asked them if they (or you) can add yet a larger capacitor.  They need to get to the bottom of this since surely other conventional customers using similar controllers will have this problem.

If it works on the Z-1000 brick 14VAC output, you might try hooking it directly to the 18VAC brick output (at the coaxial barrel connector) before it goes into the Z controller.  This will be an unchopped "pure" 18VAC sinewave so it's within the specification of the light module.  If it works here but not at the Z controller output at full throttle, then I suppose the Z controller could be injecting some kind of spike that is overwhelming the module.  In such a case, it may be expedient to use some components as the guys suggest to attenuate this...but if you indeed have a faulty controller, consider the light module as a canary in the coal mine and get the controller fixed.  In my opinion of course.

Since the Evans guys were involved, I had discounted a defective module, but as you say, never hurts to consider it.

Thanks Bunches.

Still a little confused about all of this.  I will try it with the terminals coming off the brick without connecting the Z-Controller. and see what this does. 

I appreciate all the help fellows

Jump right in, you may cook a couple of cheap components, but that's part of the learning experience.

John and all who have responded

I just got an email from MTH concerning the Z-1000 Brick

They told me that the Brick does not put out a pure Sine wave the only

transformer to do this is the Z-4000

so all the other transformers chop the Sine wave

That does not mean your device will not function with it. Sine waves are altered in many different ways. Some are kinder than others. Sometimes even a NP cap ,small value across the AC wave will do the trick.

Dale H

Well, that's certainly not correct, the bare bricks are plain transformers and will certainly output a pure sine wave. 

If you use the brick with the associated voltage controller, you get a chopped sine wave. 

If you use the brick alone, you get a pure sine wave.

Having him run off the brick doesn't really work since he needs throttle control.  Some of the early Z1000 seemed to have a rougher cut sine wave than later models.

The Z-1000, 750 and 500 use a cut sine wave.  Do you have a lighted terminal track, if not try adding an 18V bulb to the track, otherwise you will need to do what John said, and rectify the incoming AC.

The other option is to drive it off the motor leads.  This would allow it to light in forward, and with a protection diode, the Mars could go off in reverse.  The motor voltage is DC and will be less than track voltage. G

The purpose of testing the light module with the 18VAC fixed output of the Z-1000 brick itself (without the Z controller) is to isolate the problem.  The Evans module is specified to operate up to 19VAC.

If the module works with the brick alone, then it should work with the Z controller set to full throttle (unless there's some problem with the Z controller).  If the Z controller is working properly, it essentially passes through the 18VAC "pure" sinewave at full throttle.  Chopping occurs as the Z-controller knob is decreased from full throttle.  So if the module starts to mis-behave as the knob is rotated away from full, then I'd think a further increases in the size of the internal capacitor in the Evans module might do the trick.  Apparently this is a new product so I'd think Evans would want to get to the bottom of this pronto.

Right Stan, first we figure out what's going on, then we try to fix it.

Here is the Email that I sent MTH

Name: Robert A Emerson
Email Address: robertemerson12@Gmail.com
Subject of your Email: Other
Your message:
looking for the answer to a relatively simple question
Purchased this Z-1000 A 100 Watt Power Brick from Just Trains  In June 2012.  I am using this with a Z-Controller Head unit to power a Conventional Williams GS4 484 steam Locomotive.
now here is the question Does this transformer combination put out a pure Sine wave or a Chopped Sine wave Signal.  I am trying to diagnose a problem with an alternating Led Circuit board and this Transformer.
Any Help would be appreciated

And here is the Reply that I was sent

Thank you for contacting MTH Electric Trains.  We appreciate your interest in our products.  The Z-1000 does not put out a pure sine wave; the only MTH transformer that has a pure sine wave is the Z-4000.

Please let me know if you have any questions or if there is anything else I can help you with.

Thank you,

Kirstin Martinez

MTH Electric Trains

okay guys here is something that I had not paid attention to

every time I used the Z Controller I had it about 1/3 to 1/2 Throttle Positiion

I have the original board that Evans requested that i do the full install into the engine with to see what it was doing. I sent back the new board with the new capacator  that they installed because when i hooked it up to the Z Controller Both Leds Stayed lit constantly.  When I checked the other transformers that is when it worked correctly.

I will take a couple of videos of how this thing is operating and we start from there.

this way you guys can see exactly what it is doing and with What.  If you guys are game for it.  To tell you the Truth I would love to figure out what and Why this is acting up like it is.

I am assuming if Evans says it works on 19VAC it does.  It is not the consumers responsibility to test and evaluate!  You guys have too much engineer in you:-)

Wouldn't it be easier to ask him to test it with Z-1000 at full voltage vice trying to rig power from the brick plug?  If it works he can slowly throttle down until it stops working.

In the end, the Z seem to be better wave forms than the CW, so if Evans didn't test this with several different transformers shame on them.

As far as consumer fixing it, wouldn't the simpler solution be to power it from the motor as DC?

Evan's can then figure how large a capacitor is needed on rev A. G

My first shot across the bow here was to power it from DC.

Since he asked about the combo of the brick and controller, the chopped waveform is correct.

Bobbie,  I am just trying to helps you solve your issue in a quick manner.  So you know it works on Pure AC so the item works.  Testing on the Brick doesn't prove much more unless the Brick is bad, but I would think that would cause trouble running trains too.  Testing with the controller at various voltage will let you know if it can work at all with your set up which is important.

The other point about having a Light bulb load on the Z-1000 is important.  That also is useful on the CW as the circuit doesn't function well without it.

The Z-1000 may not go to zero on a direction change if the bulb is not present.

As far as Evan, I realize they are helping, but I do think they need to test on a larger transformer set.  You are here getting help because it doesn't work on the Z-1000.  The transformer you need it to work on.  G

I appreciate all the help guys I really do

I need to upload three videos of this thing can someone help me with this

Here are the Test Results: 

1. Z-1000 Brick 14 Volt Accessory Taps:  Unit Works fine

2. Z-1000 Brick with Barrel Jack Adapter to Banana Plugs: Unit Works Fine

3. Z-1000 Brick connected to Z-Controller at Full Throttle Position: Unit malfunctions and I get one Steady On Led and the Other LED Flashes at a Fast Rate, Also Tested Various Throttle positions all the way to off with no Diffrence in the unit.  Unit continued to Malfunction

4. Lionel 1950's 275 Watt ZW Transformer: Unit works fine in all notches on all handles

5. Lifelike HO DC Set Transformer from the 1960's:  Unit works fine on DC Track power at half Throttle and also tested it on the AC Accessory Terminals and Unit also works fine.

6. Connected the unit to A standard 9-Volt Battery and Unit works fine

I connect the Z-Controller to my carpet Central Test Track which consists of MTH Real Trax Sections/ with a Real-Trax Lighted Lockon and Banana Plug harness from the Controller to the Lock on.  I do need Throttle Control as this unit is ran Conventionally.

So Armed with this information What is our next Step based on the results shown

Bobbie, how old is the Z-1000?  If you have some one near you that has a Z-1000 you can test to see if it has the same effect.  If so, Evans needs to provide the modification that allows it to work with a Z-1000, or you may have to change transformers.

Or you use Johns design and rectify the AC to run the light.  G

Personally, unless you have a burning desire to run this down, I'd just do the DC conversion and move on.

Since Evans is a forum sponsor, I think you should push on to get to the bottom of this whether or not you modify the circuit as the guys suggest.  I find it amazing that a vendor would make a custom modification as they did and send you a replacement for a modestly priced product.  The impasse is that they don't have your Z-1000 to test with and you don't have the tools/resources to examine the inner workings of their circuit to troubleshoot. 

If you are in a dialog with Evans, I suggest the next step is to ask them how long of a power interruption this new module can withstand.  If this is meant to be installed in an engine rather than just a trackside accessory, then it was designed to handle momentary power losses from dirty track or whatever.  These operational dropouts are probably "worse" or of longer duration than the "chopping" caused by Z type controllers.  So if their circuit can withstand a drop-out of at least half a line cycle or 0.008 seconds, then I'd think it could tolerate the output of Z controller.

Separately from power-interruption tolerance, Evans should be able to tell from experiment #3 as to what THEIR circuit is doing when one LED is on solid while the other is quickly flashing.  I suspect they have a programmed micro-controller IC chip on the board and that behavior seems like something that can be readily diagnosed by their software guy.

If it's a uP, I suspect they don't have a good power-fail detection/reset scheme to prevent the uP from going in mumble mode.  This is a common issue, and one I devoted a lot of time to solving when I was designing avionics.  It was very important that power glitches didn't sent the uP off into the weeds!

Bobbie,  If you get a chance to try it with a different Z-1000 in the future it might be worth it.  G

No problem, ask away.