Phasing transformers

Brand does not matter.

Look on Youtube for a Lionel Corp. video "phasing two or more transformer to be used together and why".

It is a good AC primer/refesher, and Mike isn't a dull man to listen to IMO

It isn't hard to follow the written words; but knowing why helps build theory.

Adriatic, thanks for the advice, I did find and watch the video a couple of times to be sure I understood what to do.

Although not necessary, I replaced the CW 40 with a Railking 1000.

Turned the power on each to a 7, added the black wire and the red wire  checked the train and it did not slow at all. Removed both the black and red wires and the train did slow on the flat portion but not as smooth as I  had hoped, so I reconnected the black wire only, tested the engine and it ran GREAT, slow up the incline fast on the down side and slow on the flat. Must have read something that was not there to have added the red wire.

For some reason the power on the  incline/decline section does not require as much power as before but I am a happy "railroader"

Thanks

Brent

Im a little lost because I don't know the context for sure (YOUR wiring and use on the layout.)

Out of phase can cause up to twice the expected voltage (mainly why we do it, among deeper reasons ).   

With many new units and their modern breakers, out of phase usually causes the new models to never turn on, breaker trips as soon as power up happens. Older ones need an actual over amp draw. (thermal, and I would ideally back a modern one with an old thermal or fuse because I trust in mechanicals more than electronics (and electronics did feed me for years) even though the electronics are lighting fast, if they happen to burn a component, they might not trip at all.

You need both commons together at the unit. And the whole system will use one common now (black for you?) Com. to outer rails and most acc. frames/com. input. (so bumping a frame to an outer rail doesn't make a short.

Each throttle gets to its own hot wire (hot(s), center rail(s) (or constant volt terminal) ...your reds?

Now, how many and spacing between wire drops (connection to track) can impact running.  More drops is smoother power distribution as wire carries power better that steel track.   Position of a drop(s) on a loop can vary how an individual loco runs too.   Running outside last week, I needed to taylor power to my driveway grade for each loco. Some needed only 1 drop near the grade, some needed 2 to make the loop, some needed 3 drops and some would jump the track is spots with 2 or 3, those always needed just one as far away from the rollover spots as I could.

Sometimes moving a drop 1ft to the left made a huge impact.

Also of mention, some throttles vary the common, some vary the hot.  But with our version of ac, they are not TRUE hot or ground. We can phase them them to match though, and need to ID them somehow, and most people can grasp the theory if presented that way. Context over syntax   U gadda under stand, not messisarrily speaken the Duetch well, but understand it.

So phase is done on a bench and running has no business in the test. If that is ok, wire the track up now.

Running issues are distribution issues you tackle next.

Lol, Ive had pinball machine come in with all white wires and no diagram. Never trust a color, trust the meter

In fact, overseas, brown is com/ground and black is hot.... but not always.

EZ asked about transformers coupled for more current..amps. In another thread. Im assuming these talks  would be more useful in one spot.

You can approach it by creating blocks, or stacking. Stacking is really involved to be safe doing it. Blocks work well for most folk. EZ, could you be more specific to your intentions?

I have 45 watt Lionel transformers can I try them together to produce more current to operate a larger layout of track.....45 plus 45 watt would equal 90 watts of power.....

I am sure the phasing is correct, no blinking lights, train slows and speeds up with no apparent jerking. My problem was connecting the "hot" wire to each transformer by disconnecting the red (hot) to each transformer and connecting the black (common) to each transformer everything is now good.

Thanks very much for the guidance/advice.;

Brent

@BReece posted:

I am sure the phasing is correct, no blinking lights, train slows and speeds up with no apparent jerking. My problem was connecting the "hot" wire from where?

to   each transformer by disconnecting the red (hot)  to ←of? each transformer and connecting the black (common) from where?

 to each transformer everything is now good.

Thanks very much for the guidance/advice.;

Brent

Not to be mean, but still vague.  It sometimes takes some language change for to minds to meet. I'm pretty patient, hopefully you are too. (I had to train 15yr old assistants at that mousey restaurant with games. Many knew NOTHING. You are way ahead of them already 😉

At the units, black to black.  Off the units black another black wire. This is a "bus" or drop for everything needing common. This wire should now be bigger. Big enough to handle all amps of both units added together. e.g. 180w + 180w for 2 KW units. Further down this build, we may want to step down a size or two but there is only too small a wire for us. Bigger is safer and won't effect us a bit; no such thing as too big.  Buses may lead to a terminal block to allow easy step downs to smaller wire where you want them. You've also shortened the total distance you need to go with fat wires. You can now use the block as a new start point for all AWG measuring.

You can sort of use either term at times, but drops come off a bus. A bus would be larger usually. Get it?

Reds are now to be treated as individuals. Size to handle max output of the unit it comes from (180w and two throttles, don't mean 90w per. One thettle might use say 10w at rhe moment leaving 170w for #2, so both of these red wires must handle the whole 180w.(some transformers actually do have Xwatts per handle. But inside are actually two small transformers. Safer to assume it's one big one if you aren't sure.  You can also make a bus out of each of these too (separated individual one for each red of course)).

Choose wire with AWG charts online. Your concerns are distance and amps, ignore volts, you aren't powering anything massive at a plant. More distance causes voltage drop and heat in small wire as it tries to push the amps asked for by loads. (think of water, it's pressure, and how a garden hose dia. size l& length might effect flow. Same kinda concept )  

Remember, phase at the bench. Then move on.

EZ, I need a break and might even have to wake up to this. Blood sugar is low. You're not being ignored, ok.

@EZ Money posted:

I have 45 watt Lionel transformers can I try them together to produce more current to operate a larger layout of track.....45 plus 45 watt would equal 90 watts of power.....

Ok, that would require two wired in parallel. And it isn'tthat simple. They must hold exactly the same measurements on both primarys and secondaries, in winding size, number of turns, impendence, and be aligned a certain way along the primary side. I don't even know a new age unit can do these things as some don't even use real sine wave.

Being out of phase doing this can get dangerous. A smaller one will act as a load on the larger, feedback loops can start, etc. etc.

I really can't suggest it to a novice after some thought about it. It would take hours to write it all too.  Read up on paralleled transformers and I might be able to pull off some good help and sleep well

However if your issue is something like needing more amps due to lights in cars or something, note that total load is not in one spot (like a big loco is). The load is spread over a length. You may be able to divide the length into sections so the loco and cars are all not on one section(a block) at the same time.  Most large command layouts use this method, but for slightly different reasons.

When you ask about electrical, explain what you want to do as exact as you can too. It often has bearing on HOW to do it as well as if you can with what you have there. List exact equipment etc too; items can vary.  ****, tell us the temperature... if we don't need it, we won't use it and if you skip something we have to ask and wait again; slowing the whole process.

Lack of knowledge is not shameful when you're trying to learn so don't be embarrassed about stuff. If you make a dumb statement, the correction may save a project, or a life....and then you know better at least.  (and we fumble too, call is out if something is fishy or you don't get it.  If you don't truly need it yet we might say skip it for now.)

Some techs around here in the past stopped helping as often because of lack of input and effort by folks wanting help.  Im not mad, but fyi others may not have my patience.... and now you know what keeps helpers happy, effort in and effort out on both sides, not one.

I'm crashing. Tommorow, eh? 

Lionel PH135's and PH180's were designed to parallel, more power.  There was a connecting wire piece that adapted to the modular connector on the transformers.  Caution:  Common derails, where wheel sets short across the rails can weld and arc to the point of rail and wheel damage. PH135's lower left are connected to the right silver box TPC 400. In command mode, a large off/on switch. TPC 400, conventional mode can vary voltage similar to other handle controlled power supplies.   Two TPC 400 shown, one set conventional, the other command.   

Fuses upper left in picture distribute power to (8) track circuits from the parallel power source. Fuses are 5 amps per track.  

A similar power supply with (2) PH 180's  and a TPC400, top right in picture.  The Lionel connector is lower, middle, right in picture attached to the input of the silver box, TPC 400.  

I think the variable voltage side of a non-brick pair throws a wrench in this. A constant voltage pair remains matched. The 2 variables means the secondaries differ by throttle settings, no? Both would need the handles exactly in sync I think.

See what I mean about needing all info you can tell us, including how, why, and equipment?

@Adriatic posted:

Not to be mean, but still vague.  It sometimes takes some language change for to minds to meet. I'm pretty patient, hopefully you are too. (I had to train 15yr old assistants at that mousey restaurant with games. Many knew NOTHING. You are way ahead of them already 😉

At the units, black to black.  Off the units black another black wire. This is a "bus" or drop for everything needing common. This wire should now be bigger. Big enough to handle all amps of both units added together. e.g. 180w + 180w for 2 KW units. Further down this build, we may want to step down a size or two but there is only too small a wire for us. Bigger is safer and won't effect us a bit; no such thing as too big.  Buses may lead to a terminal block to allow easy step downs to smaller wire where you want them. You've also shortened the total distance you need to go with fat wires. You can now use the block as a new start point for all AWG measuring.

You can sort of use either term at times, but drops come off a bus. A bus would be larger usually. Get it?

Reds are now to be treated as individuals. Size to handle max output of the unit it comes from (180w and two throttles, don't mean 90w per. One thettle might use say 10w at rhe moment leaving 170w for #2, so both of these red wires must handle the whole 180w.(some transformers actually do have Xwatts per handle. But inside are actually two small transformers. Safer to assume it's one big one if you aren't sure.  You can also make a bus out of each of these too (separated individual one for each red of course)).

Choose wire with AWG charts online. Your concerns are distance and amps, ignore volts, you aren't powering anything massive at a plant. More distance causes voltage drop and heat in small wire as it tries to push the amps asked for by loads. (think of water, it's pressure, and how a garden hose dia. size l& length might effect flow. Same kinda concept )  

 

 

After rereading my post, a couple of points were not mentioned. 

One red (hot) and one black(common) was connected from the 35 foot section to transformer "A"

One red (hot) and one black(common) was connected from the 8 foot section to transformer "B"

One black (common) wire was connected to the "black " terminal on transformer "A" then connected to transformer "B" black terminal , connection was made after both transformers were set to a power of "7".

The other red wire I mentioned was a mistake, in the video Mike was adding an accessory transformer, 

Thanks

Brent

By Jove I think you've nailed it Brent

I really should have asked before inviting the related but slightly different topic in. I hoped you would be interested in how it relates, but didn't ask. My bad.  I hope the continued talk is of use, and notifications aren't a pita for you Brent. If so, I think we can still jump to EZs. Just say the word

I believe the answer to the original question is No.

For the past 20+ years I have phased my MTH 4000 (to run my 2 main lines) with my 2 Lionel Postwar ZWs (to run my sidings and accessories). Arnold

@Adriatic posted:

I really should have asked before inviting the related but slightly different topic in. I hoped you would be interested in how it relates, but didn't ask. My bad.  I hope the continued talk is of use, and notifications aren't a pita for you Brent. If so, I think we can still jump to EZs. Just say the word

I am a happy railroader, all my questions were answered, thanks for commenting and making me THINK.

Also the comment s about EZ's are  very interesting and I enjoy reading them (in my case 2 maybe 3 times) .

Brent

I knew you'd get it. I suspected your enthusiasm and frustrations both had you're head racing a bit.  That's normal. I would have called for an early lunch at that mouse house and talked you down over a pie.