Philosophical TMCC question

Few land mines. For the most part TMCC in particular modular which came around 1998 is pretty reliable. The engines with Odyssey cruise sometimes have a magnet break but in general repairs are usually simple and most parts still available. You have ERR products as a backup if a particular item no longer has Lionel parts available.

One engine you may want to avoid the the Century Club NYC Niagara unless you know its issues have been corrected.

Pete

Pete, Thanks and good point on repairs and long life with ERR. I am not familiar with the Niagara issue. Was it a series of locos  or a single model with the problem and what questions do I ask?

To add to Pete’s reply, ….early TMCC does not have cruise,…..all the Pulmor equipped TMCC engines are all non-cruise…..it isn’t till the advent of Oddesy that we see cruise …….as Pete says, biggest culprit for failures is broken magnets for the Oddesy reader….repairable, or usually easily upgraded to ERR products,…,

Pat

The Niagara was something unique, maybe built by a source Lionel didn’t typically use at the time. Two main faults are a plastic driveshaft that breaks and plastic gearbox gears that strip. Many have been repaired but likely many shelf queens that are still stock. Another issue is the weak diecast cab apron. More a cosmetic issue as it has no effect on performance.

Pete

Thanks guys, good stuff. If I remember correctly, odyssey was a feature with TMCC around 2005? Sounds like I should look for locos with both.

The first Odyssey engines were actually made around 1998. They became more common in the scale engines. Most traditional or “junior” size TMCC engines are non Odyssey.

Pete

I have a NH Mountain. Not sure the exact year but it came with the Odyssey lurch. Not a deal breaker but it was annoying on initial startup. There were a number of models that exhibited this. Ended up adding EOB which cured it as well as giving it 4 chuffs. Lionel was all over the place regarding chuffs. I purchased a NYC 0-8-0 and a B&A 10 Wheeler both out of the same catalog. The 0-8-0 had 4 chuffs, fan driven smoke and a wireless drawbar. The 10 Wheeler had 1 chuff , with puffer smoke and a wire tether.  Both were new tooling.  Not sure what year Lionel settled on 4. If things like that are important it maybe worth making up a list. Easy enough to fix but it’s an added cost.

Odyssey cruise came out around 2001, give or take a year.
Like others have said, TMCC engines from 20 years ago are reliable and operate well. In particular, some of the diecast steamers that were made in Korea by Korea Brass were produced quite well. The Lionmaster engines are still around for decent prices, cheaper than the street prices from 20 years ago. Nice pieces, great sounds, run well and have the 24 pin modular board set up.

Generic TMCC was/is available, other model manufactures.  There was a lot of product from TAS, Train America Studios, that used the (3) Lionel modular boards. ERR another source.   

I have one of the earliest Lionel Odyssey engines, the CP SD90, Lionel also made a UP and maybe Centennial paint schemes. This engine had a bad lurch, went to Lionel, came back, still lurches, just less. Then because it has blind inner wheels to navigate O31 curves, just has problem over problem, like shorting on an uncoupling section coming out of a curve, shorting on K-Line O72 switches, and probably something else I don't know. Note that Lionel re-released the SD90 with Legacy, and a Lionelmaster less than scale length, can't speak for those. My son had a NS SD80 (??) Lionmaster, no problems.

Then watch out for engines that only have two center rollers, you will have to run them faster than their slowest speed if you have any switches. Sooner or later they will stall, in my case, Atlas GP60. Might apply to MTH engines as well.

@illinoiscentral posted:

I have one of the earliest Lionel Odyssey engines, the CP SD90, Lionel also made a UP and maybe Centennial paint schemes. This engine had a bad lurch, went to Lionel, came back, still lurches, just less. Then because it has blind inner wheels to navigate O31 curves, just has problem over problem, like shorting on an uncoupling section coming out of a curve, shorting on K-Line O72 switches, and probably something else I don't know.

I tapered the blind drivers of my Lionel scale T1 Duplex steamer for that very reason, shorts on the switches.   It shorted on a number of Ross switches, and all my curves are O72 or larger.

@Norton - Pete, didn’t you have an NYC Mogul (from Lionel’s 1st run) that either had the ‘lurching’ problem referred to above? I seem to recall watching a video of your 4-chuff (and other) upgrade, but can’t remember if your particular model had lurched or not?

@PH1975 posted:

@Norton - Pete, didn’t you have an NYC Mogul (from Lionel’s 1st run) that either had the ‘lurching’ problem referred to above? I seem to recall watching a video of your 4-chuff (and other) upgrade, but can’t remember if your particular model had lurched or not?

The TMCC ones are smooth as silk. Even come with a small Pittman motor. Only nit is they have two chuffs but easily rectified with a 4 lobe cam.

Its the Legacy versions that caused all the grief. Stick with TMCC, you can’t go wrong.

Or as we say around here, Legacy Schmegacy, who needs it???

Pete

This info is primarily intended for @hokie71's clarification.

OK Pete (@Norton), I misspoke. The video of yours that I was thinking of is entitled 'Lionel Mikado Upgrade' about the NYC #1967 (6-18079) which was released in 1999 (and would also apply to its sister companion D&RGW #1210 6-18080).

Anyway, both of these engines received glowing reviews and in your opinion Pete "This is one of Lionel's better kept secrets" (eg. Pittman motor, Odyssey, wireless tether), but @harmonyards commented some of them sometimes exhibit the Odyssey Lurch. Having said that, he also went on to clarify that this was easily remedied with an ERR Cruise M. driver.

That was one of the mysteries to me when the Legacy versions came out. The TMCC engines ran just fine and Legacy ones not so much. Virtually all the mechanical parts are identical though I can’t speak to their gearboxes.

Pete

If you can find any TMCC engines with railsounds 5.0, buy those as the sounds have the added dialogue in the crew talk and tower com. Those are the 2 and 7 buttons on a cab1.

Thanks to all for the comments, it has been great reading the responses and doing some research on the details, based on the suggestions.  I have one question on Railsounds 5.0. Per this thread, it appears that 5.0 appeared from roughly 2004-2008 and then legacy sound took over.  If a locomotive only says Railsounds, is it safe to assume it is not 5.0, since that was a big deal and would be described on the box.. 

Unless is stated specifically what version of Railsounds, don’t assume anything.

Railsounds versions include 2.0 to 5.

5 is better but only marginally than 4 or 4E. Added crew talk is not a deal breaker. Some RS2.5 sound better than all of them due to their speakers.

Pete

Within the JLC line of premium locos came Lionel's first scale GG1's. They span a production period from '04 to '08 ,and as such, featured the best that tmcc had to offer.  Unfortunately, all but those from the first year of production suffered from zinc pest in the driver frame assemblies.  Long story short, best avoid these late offerings if you don't like repair nightmares.  Those from the first year of production, 6-18354, 6-18355, 6-18256, appear to have survived just fine.

Bruce

I have the Lionel 6-18372 Pennsylvania TMCC Scale GG1 Green Solid Stripe #4925 from 2007, and the sideframes are rock solid.  I was almost sure I'd be crushed with what I'd find when checked a few years ago, but no problem at all.

You are fortunate, John, and possibly that mid production batch fully escaped the pest.  The 3 examples I own from the 2004 run have held up perfectly, knock on wood.  My inflicted MTH P5 box cab shell lasted years before signs of the rot appeared.  Fingers crossed on their latest release now in my roster.

Bruce

@Norton posted:

Unless is stated specifically what version of Railsounds, don’t assume anything.

Railsounds versions include 2.0 to 5.

5 is better but only marginally than 4 or 4E. Added crew talk is not a deal breaker. Some RS2.5 sound better than all of them due to their speakers.

Pete

I can certainly attest to this, ….I recently upgraded a 2.5 to better speakers (twin 4 ohm) and the sounds are 10X more crisp, and loud as I want it to be!…as we say, Legacy, Shmegacy, it ain’t all that!…😁

Pat

To keep it simple, getting ready for York and looking for something like we have discussed in the thread. Here is a summary of the sheet I plan to take with me as I comb the halls. Here are the ones mentioned above:

• TMCC, with Odyssey and railsounds 5.0 in general.
• Good: Lionel 6-18372 Pennsylvania TMCC Scale GG1 Green Solid Stripe #4925 from 2007
• Good: NYC #1967 (6-18079) which was released in 1999 (and would also apply to its sister companion D&RGW #1210 6-18080).

In general, is there any way to red flag the locos with the lurch problem?

From another thread, K-line Collector club engines with TMCC that are desirable, it appears these had “cruise” too:

6-11559 Engine # 204 with TMCC

6-11556 Engine #722 with TMCC

Plus the 2-xxxx like 2-11561 series

I am sure this is super limited but am I missing anything?

@hokie71 posted:

To keep it simple, getting ready for York and looking for something like we have discussed in the thread. Here is a summary of the sheet I plan to take with me as I comb the halls. Here are the ones mentioned above:

• TMCC, with Odyssey and railsounds 5.0 in general.
• Good: Lionel 6-18372 Pennsylvania TMCC Scale GG1 Green Solid Stripe #4925 from 2007
• Good: NYC #1967 (6-18079) which was released in 1999 (and would also apply to its sister companion D&RGW #1210 6-18080).

In general, is there any way to red flag the locos with the lurch problem?

Be careful with the 6-18372 GG1, I have that exact locomotive.  Mine is fine, but many in that run suffered Zinc Pest on the sideframes.  A close inspection for any signs of warping or cracking of the sideframes is in order for any you might consider buying.

There's no way I know of of flagging the Odyssey engines with the lurch.  However, since it only happens upon the first movement after power up, it's not a deal killer, at least for me.

Paul, Here are two K-Line locomotives with TMCC.......the lurch on EP-5 happens on only slow speeds and if there is a lurch on the GG1, I hardly see it.

Peter

Peter, love the video and thanks for the suggestion.  I would not mind finding a TMCC EP-5 or GG-1 since I have nothing with a pantograph.  I am sure to do some consulting on what I find during York!

@Putnam Division posted:

Paul, Here are two K-Line locomotives with TMCC.......the lurch on EP-5 happens on only slow speeds and if there is a lurch on the GG1, I hardly see it.

Peter, the Odyssey lurch only exists with Lionel Odyssey I cruise, the K-Line models that have cruise use the proprietary K-Line Cruise board.

Thanks for starting this topic, Hokie71.

I got the device to run TMCC using the DCS remote and have 2 very nice TMCC locomotives, but was never able to run my TMCC engines well using that remote on my layout.

This is in stark contrast to running MTH PS 2 and 3 using the DCS remote on my layout, which run great.

After carefully following the directions to hook up the TMCC device and attaching the necessary wires to the track, my TMCC engines using the remote would run for 2 or 3 feet and then stop. They would run in fits and starts.

My guess is that  this problem is due to the fact that my track work (Postwar tubular) isn't great with a few slight voltage drops, the track is a little dirty, or I made some mistake with the wiring and installation of the TMCC device.

I forget what that TMCC device is called. I gave up and detached it from my layout.

Maybe I'll get lucky and one day have a tech savvy train buddy help me reinstall my TMCC device correctly.

By the way, my TMCC engines run OK conventionally on my layout. Only thing I'm missing when running them conventionally is I can't activate the electrocouplers. Arnold

@Arnold D. Cribari posted:

I got the device to run TMCC using the DCS remote and have 2 very nice TMCC locomotives, but was never able to run my TMCC engines well using that remote on my layout.

I can't imagine what you're doing wrong, typically TMCC is far easier to get running reliably on an existing layout than DCS.  I've gone to a number of layouts that run only conventional and just brought some Legacy/TMCC locomotives and a spare Legacy command system.  Connect one wire, plug it in, and I'm running flawlessly in command mode.

The only thing that comes to mind is whatever TMCC command system you were attempting to use was defective or you didn't have a properly grounded outlet to plug it into.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I can't imagine what you're doing wrong, typically TMCC is far easier to get running reliably on an existing layout than DCS.  I've gone to a number of layouts that run only conventional and just brought some Legacy/TMCC locomotives and a spare Legacy command system.  Connect one wire, plug it in, and I'm running flawlessly in command mode.

The only thing that comes to mind is whatever TMCC command system you were attempting to use was defective or you didn't have a properly grounded outlet to plug it into.

Thanks, John, for your input. I don't have the Legacy Command System, only the Legacy thing (a Legacy Command Base?) that is supposed to make TMCC engines run in Command mode using the DCS remote and system. Maybe that's the cause of the problem.

Maybe I'll buy the whole Legacy  Command System.

Well, you need a correct configuration to get the TMCC command base connected and working with the DCS TIU, but it shouldn't be that difficult.  The biggest issue people run across is a problem with the cable between the TIU and TMCC/Legacy command base.

@Arnold D. Cribari posted:

Thanks for starting this topic, Hokie71.

I got the device to run TMCC using the DCS remote and have 2 very nice TMCC locomotives, but was never able to run my TMCC engines well using that remote on my layout.

This is in stark contrast to running MTH PS 2 and 3 using the DCS remote on my layout, which run great.

After carefully following the directions to hook up the TMCC device and attaching the necessary wires to the track, my TMCC engines using the remote would run for 2 or 3 feet and then stop. They would run in fits and starts.

My guess is that  this problem is due to the fact that my track work (Postwar tubular) isn't great with a few slight voltage drops, the track is a little dirty, or I made some mistake with the wiring and installation of the TMCC device.

I forget what that TMCC device is called. I gave up and detached it from my layout.

Maybe I'll get lucky and one day have a tech savvy train buddy help me reinstall my TMCC device correctly.

By the way, my TMCC engines run OK conventionally on my layout. Only thing I'm missing when running them conventionally is I can't activate the electrocouplers. Arnold

I just connected my TMCC base to my TIU with the TIU to TMCC/Legacy cable, connected the TMCC base to the layout ground, and that's it. I run all my locomotives, whether TMCC, Legacy, PS2, or PS3, with the DCS remote. Easy, peasy.

I already have the MTH cable between my Legacy base and the TIU, so I just fired up the layout and ran a TMCC engine with the DCS remote, no problem.  It's really as simple as getting the proper cable and making sure it's installed correctly, it only works with the correct end to each box.

I will take the above advice and try to make the connections as explained above in the next few days and report back. Thanks!

Arnold,

I've had the interface between the MTH TIU and Lionel Legacy, to include the MTH WiFi adapter, for many years. It does allow the DCS handheld or Smartphone to control a Lionel engine, but occasionally there is a software glitch that sends an engine up to 200 mph! (I have an old MTH TIU.)  While the capability to control all the trains from a single control source is pretty neat, I still am most comfortable using the DCS handheld for MTH PS2's and PS3's and the CAB2 for Lionel TMCC and Legacy. For conventional ops, I still like to use the old ZW or Z4000 throttles rather than the DCS handheld or CAB2 (via PowerMaster). I am definitely old school.

I use the Lionel remote whenever I can for one simple reason.  The control difference between the big red knob and the flaky thumbwheel on the DCS remove is vast!

@Ted Bertiger posted:

Odyssey cruise came out around 2001, give or take a year.
Like others have said, TMCC engines from 20 years ago are reliable and operate well. In particular, some of the diecast steamers that were made in Korea by Korea Brass were produced quite well. The Lionmaster engines are still around for decent prices, cheaper than the street prices from 20 years ago. Nice pieces, great sounds, run well and have the 24 pin modular board set up.

Would the 6-38020 lion master prr t-1 be considered in this group?

The 6-38020 engine came out in 02-03 and was equipped with Odyssey because I have one of these.