Please reconsider the "no replies allowed" policy on the for-sale and WTB threads...

Interesting observation David. I would want the availability to reply as well, but for different reasons. 

1) The ease of dropping prices or adding items - re- posting is not fun.

2) The ability to update your for sale items as sold, or add additional pictures as requested by the buyer(s)

3) I have seen quite a few posted items in ERROR. It would be nice to be be able to reply to the seller and politely correct his listing. Or help them by adding a product picture.

4) Some sellers never reply via email - Would be nice to have closure. What happened?

5) Some people are difficult to deal with or seem to sell items to the highest bidder over and above their original list or reduced price. 

It would be interesting to note has the forum traffic been reduced since the new rule? 

Either way, I still would like to thank the OGR staff and moderators for their time for this service. 

I liked the old way. It's not a business and the replies were usually very informative if not entertaining. The violators were not a bother...I doubt that they accomplished much in the way of an unfair advantage.

OGR Webmaster posted:

David, I think the issue you ran into with that email is the result of a new round of security updates that a lot of server administrators are running right now. My IT guy updated my web server two days ago. I have had to update all of my web site clients (about 30 of them) with instructions on how to change their email setup to use encrypted passwords, SSL, etc. I have not seen the error message with a link such as you received, but I suspect that's part of this.

Having said that, the question you have posed is worthy of consideration and I will give your request some serious thought. The For Sale and Wanted to Buy forums were definitely more interactive when replies were permitted. The handful of people who were gaming the system made it tough on us to keep the "conversations" to a minimum. It required an extraordinary amount of time to moderate and delete all the extraneous posts.

If we allow replies on those forums again, I will have to come up with a solution to the moderation and admin time issue. I can't spend 2+ hours each day doing micro-surgery on these two forums to remove posts that should not be there. But I don't want to delete an entire thread ( which takes only seconds) because of the actions of a few posters down in the thread, when the OP did nothing wrong.

It is a tough situation...

Forgive me if this is a stupid question, but as I understand it, this forum offers a free service - it allows people to advertise items for sale and connect with potential buyers, without listings fees or final sale fees.  If so, isn't it a little like looking a gift horse in the mouth for someone to complain that their sale thread got bumped off page 1 by other sales threads?  Frankly, Rich, why would you (or whoever) want to get in the middle of buyers and sellers using this free platform to connect and transact?  It seems that moderator involvement would add value only when there is a legit reason for the involvement - something objectionable in the given post that would otherwise be grounds for its removal.  

Peter

Laidoffsick posted:

I think people make WAY TOO BIG of a deal about bumping a for sale post anyway. It's either going to sell or it's not. Bumping it WILL NOT make the difference. Just like shill bidding and sniping on auction sites.... they will never completely stop it. Besides that, if people have nothing better to do but sit around and report what other people said or did on a forum, maybe they need to actually take their trains out of the box and go run them.

There is definitely a lot less activity on the For Sale threads, and I would guess people are selling even less than they were. 

I agree - the whole bumping thing is so far blown out of proportion!  Yes there is some abuse, but you can ignore it.  I think the whole "let me quote the entire post with 10 photos a dozen times" is more of an issue if you ask me.

I never felt "email sent" was a bump.  A bump is assumed to be a shameless reply by the seller to get their item back to the top.  A buyer has no interest in bumping.  Think about it. 

Laidoffsick posted:

 

if people have nothing better to do but sit around and report what other people said or did on a forum, maybe they need to actually take their trains out of the box and go run them.

There is definitely a lot less activity on the For Sale threads, and I would guess people are selling even less than they were. 

I said exactly the same thing on a great thread that turned into a gossip session this morning. Its also the same people that launch attacks when its pointed out they are breaking the rules or being disrespectful. Go with the comments, it also cuts down on the price gouging, this is a community that helps each other out and on some level we are all on the same team

I have two hours a day to spare and properly trained would be glad to do the moderating for you.

 Go with the comments, it also cuts down on the price gouging, this is a community that helps each other out and on some level we are all on the same team

How so?
It's always been forbidden to comment about someone else's price.

I would like to see it go back to the way it was.....

Reason: There were times that questions were asked about and item that I did not know existed. The responses from others expanded my knowledge of the hobby and the many unique items that are out there. Or items that had features that were not listed or that I was not aware of.

Just my take on this....

Your never to old to learn....

As an occasional user of the buy and sell forum, I think the no replies rule is a good idea.

When I am looking to buy, I can look at the first page or two and see that the listing are fresh.

As a seller, I can delete my own listing whenever I please.

Folks are making the argument that email is imperfect.
Yes it is, but we are not discussing life and death communications here.
Email is good enough for businesses to use it to conduct almost all of their communications. It should be good enough for conducting some causal sales.

And some people have stated that they cannot update their listings or add new pieces.
It's my impression that folks can edit their own listing, so where is the problem?
It seems to me that folks want to update their listings to get them back to the top, so I guess being at the top is important to most. 

As for "Email sent" ... what did that mean?

Were they offering to buy the item at the posted price, making an offer, or just asking a question?
Some people posted "email sent" when multiple items were listed ...... did they want them all?

If the board is going back to allowing responses, I wish people would leave a clearer response.

Regardless, I appreciate the free service being offered by the OGR board. I will use the buy / sell boards according to the rules as best I can.

Norton posted:

Keep it as it is. Not only do replies bump the thread, it also bumps all the topics on the sidebar. There used to be days when half the topics in the sidebar were generated on the buy sell forums. 

Pete

I agree with Pete's comments.  I usually come to the forum a couple of times a day.  First time I look at a couple of the individual sub-forums (like the the 3RS, High-Rail, and For Sale) and then the other times I take a look at the sidebar.  For me, this is an efficient use of my time, AND it gets me a peek at topics that might be of interest in some of the other sub-forums.  I remember, as Pete notes, times when a large percentage of the sidebar topics were For Sale items.

As an occasional seller, I preferred the old method as it was easier to list and modify my listing.  However, unlike Craigslist, the focus of this forum in not for folks to sell their items, it is to have discussions about the hobby.  Personally, I am grateful to have the opportunity to buy or sell on this forum.  I think as sellers, we need to be responsible sellers.  We need to make sure that we list an e-mail address in the posting (as well as in our profile), we need to check our emails for responses, and we need to be responsible enough to modify our postings as soon as items sell.

Jim

Contrary to what some think the most effective way of stopping the extraneous posting on the Buy Sell / WTB is the report reply drop down.  One doesn't have to "sit around and report what other people said or did on a forum" to keep the forum less cluttered and free of those who take advantage of the system.  If you see what you might consider a violation of the rules set forth by OGR while browsing the threads just use it.  Let the moderators decide before everyone ruins it at you go to the state it's in now.  It sure beats the back and forth chest beating that happens so often.

I certainly hope Rich and company can find a way to open up the BS / WTB sections again to replies as the value outweighs the negatives.

I never really paid much attention to the e mail sent remark, except, when the seller has multiple items and someone sends e mail sent but doesn't say for what.

Then here comes all kinds of question, is so and so still here, etc etc. no one knows what the person sent a e mail on or if he even purchased anything.

The sellers add is then totally shot.

As many have said. Just follow A few rules and we will all be fine and happy.

Larry

Norton posted:

Keep it as it is. Not only do replies bump the thread, it also bumps all the topics on the sidebar. There used to be days when half the topics in the sidebar were generated on the buy sell forums. 

Pete

Yup!  Best improvement that was ever made to this forum was eliminating that reply function. 

Laidoffsick posted:

 

There is definitely a lot less activity on the For Sale threads, and I would guess people are selling even less than they were. 

in the past day,there were 35+ ads posted in the "for sale" forum......past days average  a bit more or a bit less. how much more activity would one expect?

OGR Webmaster posted:

... If we allow replies on those forums again, I will have to come up with a solution to the moderation and admin time issue. I can't spend 2+ hours each day doing micro-surgery on these two forums to remove posts that should not be there. But I don't want to delete an entire thread ( which takes only seconds) because of the actions of a few posters down in the thread, when the OP did nothing wrong.

It is a tough situation...

I totally agree with you, Rich, on not wanting to allocate 2+ hours daily on attending to just one forum of this magnificent board. I think the majority of model railroaders who utilize this OGR board would prefer and benefit more by you devoting 2+ hours daily strengthening and growing other OGR board forums which a majority of forumites frequent, rely on and benefit from rather than spending it on the buy/sell forum which a likely smaller segment of the OGR forum community benefits from.

Keep it the way it is. Buyers and sellers are fortunate you're offering them this service which offers them a win win, no lose free FS forum - no expense to them whatsoever but with a large expense to you in the time you'll likely spend again moderating it daily if you return to allowing replies!

Btw, MartyE, as for, "I certainly hope Rich and company can find a way to open up the BS / WTB sections again to replies as the value outweighs the negatives." - I respectfully see it completely opposite to how you view it.

Jim Berger posted:

Laidoffsick posted:

 

There is definitely a lot less activity on the For Sale threads, and I would guess people are selling even less than they were. 

in the past day,there were 35+ ads posted in the "for sale" forum......past days average  a bit more or a bit less. how much more activity would one expect?

I didnt say anything about how many posts per day. I said they are probably actually selling less... as in completely the transaction.

Marty if people have nothing better to do than police the forum like a bunch of grade school kids..... well that speaks for itself. If people don't agree with "email sent" then ignore it and move to the next post. It doesn't affect a thing.

I don't like it but it is what it is. I e-mailed a seller it didn't go through, no way to verify and I lost a purchase so not to enthused about the change. Lots of train shows and antique stores.

This has been a great thread but now I'm going to the For Sale or Trade Forum to see if there is something that I want to buy.

jd-train posted:

...  I remember, as Pete notes, times when a large percentage of the sidebar topics were For Sale items.   ...

As I said in my original post, nothing is gonna be 100% perfect in an imperfect world.  A few times a month I'll look at the "recent posts" column, and it contains a sea of ads by sponsors or a bunch of service announcements about products low in inventory.  That's just the way it is.  Does that imply we should do away with those posts?  Or make them "no replies allowed" too?  Of course not...  we just take them for what they are, and life goes on just fine.

If folks don't find the "recent posts" column contains something to their liking at any given moment, they can always click on a specific sub-forum anyway to see if anything else fits their interest.  No harm... it's just one click away.

David

Yes, I totally agree with David as this has taken the seller, and hopeful buyer into an unknown area. I like the discussion and feed back of other forum members and this also helps protect possible negative issues from happening.   Not all buyers or sellers are trustworthy, sorry to say that, but the truth Hurts.... It makes selling and purchasing much more enjoyable to have others input and ideas concerning the product offererrings...I vote to doing it the Old Way!!

Laidoffsick posted:

Jim Berger posted:

Laidoffsick posted:

 

There is definitely a lot less activity on the For Sale threads, 

 

in the past day,there were 35+ ads posted in the "for sale" forum......past days average  a bit more or a bit less. how much more activity would one expect?

I didnt say anything about how many posts per day. 

someone tell me what"definitely a lot less activity " means if not referring to posts...

leapinlarry posted:

Yes, I totally agree with David as this has taken the seller, and hopeful buyer into an unknown area. I like the discussion and feed back of other forum members and this also helps protect possible negative issues from happening.   Not all buyers or sellers are trustworthy, sorry to say that, but the truth Hurts.... It makes selling and purchasing much more enjoyable to have others input and ideas concerning the product offererrings...I vote to doing it the Old Way!!

 

Agree, a recent seller when emailed to buy one of his listings, replied that he "had to find the item and didn't know if he had the boxes."  Then went on with a sad story about being a retired veteran.  etc.  He never found them.

Wonder if he would have listed stuff it the replies were visible to all.

I'll put my vote in for allowing posts again.  Sad there's no option to keep new posts from bumping a thread to the top but It is what it is.

Rich,  has OGR ever considered hiring a forum moderator? Can't imagine how much time you put into this forum every day.

superwarp1 posted:

Rich,  has OGR ever considered hiring a forum moderator? Can't imagine how much time you put into this forum every day.

I would be happy to moderate the forum, if you (OGR) are hiring. Email in profile. Thanks.

Jim Berger posted:

Laidoffsick posted:

Jim Berger posted:

Laidoffsick posted:

 

There is definitely a lot less activity on the For Sale threads, 

 

in the past day,there were 35+ ads posted in the "for sale" forum......past days average  a bit more or a bit less. how much more activity would one expect?

I didnt say anything about how many posts per day. 

someone tell me what"definitely a lot less activity " means if not referring to posts...

Interaction, reporting replys... you can't and theres no need to report. Its boring. You post an item for sale..thats it! So what there is 30 per day.

Keep it as is.

All it became was a place to discuss stuff instead of what it should be.

This forum is about trains. It is the best. I'm very happy with it. Thank you for providing it.

Engineer Joe, I agree partially with your thoughts, however, we are in this hobby to enjoy our purchasing and Our selling so its my thoughts that some related discussion would be beneficial to both Buyers and Sellers. I do agree that moderation would be good for everyone. 

What I sincerely miss is the feed back, if the item is sold, if the price changes or new items added, etc......Its simply not as much fun the current way....Yes it works, but, it loses the Thrill and Excitement both in buying and Selling...

Good thread David, hope Rich and the OGR Folks re-enter the Discussion side of our Wants Wishes and Sales portion of the Forum....Thanks for Asking!!

CharlieS posted:

As an occasional user of the buy and sell forum, I think the no replies rule is a good idea.

When I am looking to buy, I can look at the first page or two and see that the listing are fresh.

As a seller, I can delete my own listing whenever I please.

Folks are making the argument that email is imperfect.
Yes it is, but we are not discussing life and death communications here.
Email is good enough for businesses to use it to conduct almost all of their communications. It should be good enough for conducting some causal sales.

And some people have stated that they cannot update their listings or add new pieces.
It's my impression that folks can edit their own listing, so where is the problem?
It seems to me that folks want to update their listings to get them back to the top, so I guess being at the top is important to most. 

As for "Email sent" ... what did that mean?

Were they offering to buy the item at the posted price, making an offer, or just asking a question?
Some people posted "email sent" when multiple items were listed ...... did they want them all?

If the board is going back to allowing responses, I wish people would leave a clearer response.

Regardless, I appreciate the free service being offered by the OGR board. I will use the buy / sell boards according to the rules as best I can.

These are also pretty much my thoughts on the replies, I think CharlieS explained it well.

having been both seller and buyer,the biggest problem I had with "email sent" was ,as stated before,about what,,,,if it was concise,ie I want (item) ,I will take it,i would believe that would cut down on some of the unwanted bumping,, have I lost any buyers/deals  ,dunno,hopefully not

I too preferred the old rules.  I actually appreciated the email sent on item such  and such,  as usually it meant the item was sold and prevented me wasting my time.  

Additionally I did learn alot about things by seeing the comments in the for sale threads.  I understand the need to have less moderation time required ,  but I felt the replies in the for sale forum were some  of the most interesting things going on here.

If folks don't find the "recent posts" column contains something to their liking at any given moment, they can always click on a specific sub-forum anyway to see if anything else fits their interest.  No harm... it's just one click away.

I am one of those people who uses the "recent post columns". Sometimes I also check specifc sub-forums, other times not.
I guess it all comes down to where Rich wants the focus of the board to be. Is it a venue for train folks to communicate, or is it a venue to buy & sell trains?

 A few times a month I'll look at the "recent posts" column, and it contains a sea of ads by sponsors or a bunch of service announcements about products low in inventory.

Sponsors pay for the privilege to make those posts. Maybe Rich should charge for the buy / sell listings.

jhz563 posted:

....... but I felt the replies in the for sale forum were some  of the most interesting things going on here.

The issue was, that was always against the rules for the buy/sell sections.  

Several times Rich first put reminders of the rules, then warning of the rules, and  so many people kept right on disrespecting the forum owner by ignoring his rules.

When so many for sale threads turned into pages of discussions about the items for sale in that thread, it became difficult to weed thru them to see what was still unsold, and so forth.

C W Burfle posted:

......I guess it all comes down to where Rich wants the focus of the board to be. Is it a venue for train folks to communicate, or is it a venue to buy & sell trains?......

 

I find this to be a very good point.   Often times I seem to notice when going thru the buy/sell area that a lot of the high volume sellers rarely post in the general discussion areas.

In other words, they have found a FREE place to sell their stuff.   I may be wrong, but I don't think that's what Rich initially had in mind when he generously created those sections for us.

superwarp1 posted:

I'll put my vote in for allowing posts again.  Sad there's no option to keep new posts from bumping a thread to the top but It is what it is.

Rich,  has OGR ever considered hiring a forum moderator? Can't imagine how much time you put into this forum every day.

Hiring an employee to moderate will cost money,  Superwarp1. Would you be willing to pay fees to list on the Buy/Sell board to subsidize the salary of that employee moderator?

I agree with David. I like the old way better. 

I am guilty of posting the "email sent" message. My intent was never to "bump" the thread but to have an official time stamp of what item I wanted and when I wanted it. To me saying "email sent" was equal to saying "I will take it". I understand it did bump the thread but there was nothing I can do about that. I actually didn't realize the "email sent" post was against the rules until about a year before the rules were changed. 

As a seller I don't believe I ever bumped my own thread. Although, I think I sold something one time and it became a discussion. I might have replied to that but only because of the discussion and not to make a sale. It was already sold so bumping it was not going to help. If I ever decided to add items or change prices I edited the original post. I have seen other sellers add posts to their own thread that stated new lower prices or new items added. This I feel is "real bumping" and should not be done but as stated above there are some people (no one specific) as in all areas of life that seem to do whatever they want regardless of the rules. Those people will continue to do what they do and unfortunately the only way to stop them is to do what Rich did not allow replies. 

I personally was not bothered by the bumps. Certainly not enough to complain about it. I had no problem navigating through the pages of the for sale forum to see if there is anything I am interested in. I usually go back through the top 4 pages unless I haven't checked it in a long time. Then I will go back further than 4 pages. 

With many of you still clamoring for a return to the former Buy/Sell forum rules, even after Rich stated that he'd spend 2+ hours daily moderating it under those rules, is it any surprise it was announced during the Fall York meet that Rich is contemplating selling OGR and retiring?

With all the comments posted in this thread about this one forum on the OGR board, it wouldn't surprise me if a future owner would see the Buy/Sell forum as a cash cow of revenue and bring back it's former format which many of you are clamoring for but then make it a fee based rather than the free based forum Rich has graciously provided us for so many years.

How many of you posters would be then still be passionate enough about about it as to be willing to pay to use it? Be very careful of what you wish for as the future owner of OGR might indeed allow replies on the Buy/sell forum but at the cost of charging you to use it.

In closing and the spirit of Thanksgiving next week rather than rehashing and mulling over the Buy/Sell forum's changed rule, why not accept the change and be thankful Rich chose continuing the forum, albeit with that change, rather than eliminating it altogether from this great OGR board?

Here's a good way to look at this- those of us who actually buy and sell would welcome this ability to post. I buy and sell and totally miss that ability. 

Rich.  Please leave it the way it is!  If we go back to the old way the same abusers are going to do the same thing and you will go right back to the same problem you had before taking the replies away.   I think it's safe to say you have waaaay better things to do than spend 2 hours of your time nit picking the sale/ trade forum! 

I don't consider myself a heavy user, but I do enjoy being able to use the forum, as I have bought and sold quite a few items. Even when I requested replies be made through email, some ignored that and posted anyway. This will work the way it is. I'm pretty sure that the sun will come up tomorrow, even if you can't post a reply and Donald Trump is going to be the next President.

Chris Lonero posted:

Rich.  Please leave it the way it is!  If we go back to the old way the same abusers are going to do the same thing and you will go right back to the same problem you had before taking the replies away.   I think it's safe to say you have waaaay better things to do than spend 2 hours of your time nit picking the sale/ trade forum! 

My feelings exactly. 

I'm a "rules" guy and have no problem buying and selling under whatever policies Rich & Co. decide.  If things revert to the old way I can easily see the scenario Chris describes above. We'll be right back to the same old problems.