Postwar Lionel 2671 12 wheel tender musings / questions

Hi Charlie,

Here's a photo of my 2671WX LL tender from a 1950 Berkshire next to a 2046W from a 2056 showing the difference in lettering.

I believe the 2671WX is in white, although, as you know, slightly dirty white is hard to distinguish from silver that has lost its metallic sheen. But, I don't think I've ever seen a 2671WX in unmistakable silver lettering. The engine is rubber stamped 736 in silver.

I also have a 681 with a 2671W tender. The lettering on engine and tender are both definitely white. The 681 on the engine is in the more modern font but looks rubber stamped. If it is a heat stamp, it is a very light stamping with no evidence of an impression. These came as a boxed set with little wear.

Here's a photo:

Both the 736 and 681 are original sets from attic finds.

So I guess my questions are:

1. Was there a 2671WX in silver small letter Lionel Lines?

2. Was the 2671W tender lettering silver for the 671 and white for the 681, or just in white for a later 681?

I'll have to do some checking of reference books too! 

Jim

The 2671wx was only white, it had a 2046w tender body on a 6 wheel tender chassis. A correct 2671wx tender would look like the picture of the 2046 tender shown by Jim. Most likely this is when the color and font changed in 1950.

Chuck Sartor posted:

The 2671wx was only white, it had a 2046w tender body on a 6 wheel tender chassis. A correct 2671wx tender would look like the picture of the 2046 tender shown by Jim. Most likely this is when the color and font changed in 1950.

Chuck, can you elaborate on what you said about a correct 2671wx would look like a 2046 tender pictured above?....It was always my understanding the 1950  2671wx, which was a one year only tender, all had the smaller lettering, I want to learn something too, I have seen some early 2046w tenders with the smaller print and always figured lionel was using up available stock...perhaps you could shed a little more light? ....please understand....im not doubting you in any way.....im always on the quest to learn....

Jim Policastro posted:

I also have a 681 with a 2671W tender. The lettering on engine and tender are both definitely white. The 681 on the engine is in the more modern font but looks rubber stamped. If it is a heat stamp, it is a very light stamping with no evidence of an impression. These came as a boxed set with little wear.

Here's a photo:

Jim, does your 681 have nickel rims on the drivers? I don't think so, but I can't tell for sure from the photo.

Cheers!

Keith

The 2671wx tender had a 'new' shell. The x was added as it used the identical shell used on the 2046w, which has elongated larger LIONEL LINES in white. Only issued in 1950, as the x-less 2671w had smaller lettering, usually in silver. The silver has a tendency to fade and now looks white. Careful examination is required.

I would say Jim's picture above of a 2671wx the shell has been changed from the original, or is the x stamped on the frame, if not then it is a 2671w.

Chuck: I want to be certain I am following you:
"Only issued in 1950, as the x-less 2671w had smaller lettering, usually in silver. The silver has a tendency to fade and now looks white."

Is this tender lettered Lionel lines in silver, using the smaller font and the round "o"?
And it has a 2671W shell?

2671WX tenders are made with a 2046 shell and are marked Lionel lines in white, using the smaller font and round "o"?

Another question is going to be: what is the difference between the 2671 shells and the 2046W shells.

Thanks to everybody for the replies.
I am trying to summarize all your input, and will post the summary when it is a bit more done.

Chuck,

Now I'm confused too! 

The tender is stamped 2671WX on the frame. I don't think I've ever seen a 6 wheel truck LL tender with anything but the small print shell shown in the photo, and always with either a 1950 or 1951 Berkshire. I haven't checked to see if the frames were stamped with or without the X. That's something I'll have to watch for in the future.

You're saying that only an early 1950 Berk would have the small letter shell??? 

For this engine and tender, I have no reason to suspect a shell swap, although it is always a possibility. You're saying that the shell was swapped for an earlier version with the small letters?

Keith,

No nickel rims - sintered iron wheels.

Jim

OK, I'll try this again. Jim, if the frame on the 6 wheel tender you have pictured is stamped with an x, the shell has been replaced with an older shell. To make it correct, it would have a shell identical to the 2046 tender shown below it. In 1950 when the 2046 was introduced, Lionel used the same tender shell mold which was given a streamlined 4 wheel tender. This is the 2046w tender. The frame was modified for the four wheel mechanical coupler truck and lettering font was changed and was now white.  In 1950 Lionel still wanted a 6 wheel tender behind it's premium 736, which was a 726 with magne traction. The smaller font lettering was discontinued. So that year only the printing on the 2046 tender and 736 tender was identical. The 2046 tender had a mechanical coupler, the 736 an electric coupler. The 6 wheel truck was discontinued in 1951, so no more 2671 tender. 

Chuck,

That's interesting. So a small letter LL shell on a 6 wheel truck frame should only be found on early 1950 Berkshires? That means that Lionel started production of the new introduced 736 1950 Berk with a newly produced small letter LL tender only to change it right away to a new font LL tender in the same production year? I wonder how long the small letter tender was used because there are certainly a lot of them out there.

In fact, I think that most Berkshires I have seen that have the '50-'51 characteristics are paired with the small letter tenders. The small letter tenders weren't used with any engines other than the 1950 Berk, were they?

Jim

Am I capturing this information correctly?

671 (1948-19)  2671W Pennsylvania - silver
681 (1950) small quantity of 2671W Pennsylvania - silver*
681 (1950-51)  2671W Pennsylvania - white
736 (1950)        2671W Lionel Lines (small lettering) - silver
736 (1951)        2671WX Lionel Lines (large lettering) - white - new 2046 shell.

* according to Greenberg guide

Just looked at the Lionel 1950 catalog.
It lists the 736 Berkshire as having a 2671WX tender. The illustration shows "Lionel Lines" lettering.
It lists the 681 Turbine as having a 2671W tender. The illustration shows "Pennsylvania" lettering.

Same goes for Lionel 1951 catalog.

Ok, after reviewing some info, I apparently got it wrong. The 2671w was PENNSYLVANIA lettering for the turbine, the 2671wx was lettered LIONEL LINES, small lettering for the 736.  The small lettered LIONEL LINES was first used (or part number assigned) for the 2046 4-6-4. After 1952 the lettering was changed to large font. I should have read my info a little more carefully.

Thanks, Chuck.

That makes sense. I've seen too many small letter LL tenders with early 736s for it to be a short run.

Now that I think of it, I do remember seeing a small letter LL with a 2046 engine once or twice. I questioned it at the time, but I guess it could have been correct.

Jim

Here is another try:

671 (1948-19)  2671W Pennsylvania - silver

681 (1950) small quantity of 2671W Pennsylvania - silver*
681 (1950-51)  2671W Pennsylvania - white

736 (1950)        2671WX Lionel Lines (small lettering) - silver
736 (1951)        2671WX Lionel Lines (large lettering) - white - new 2046 shell.

* according to Greenberg guide

Does this seem correct?

Charlie,

The only things I'm not sure about are the silver vs. white for the small letter 2671WX. Maybe I've just never seen one clean enough to be sure they were all silver.

Also, I'm not sure if the large vs. small lettering 2671WX has a clean cut-off at the end of 1950. I've seen way more small letter LL vs. large letter LL on 6 wheel trucks. But, again that's not conclusive.

Thanks for putting the chart together. It will give me some more things to check out at York and other shows next year.

Jim

Also, I'm not sure if the large vs. small lettering 2671WX has a clean cut-off at the end of 1950.

I doubt anything Lionel did had a 100% clean cut off.

Thanks for confirming the table.

Now I understand. Well maybe.

Me too, Eddie! 

I had a special interest in learning about those tenders since my first Lionel was a 1950 Berkshire set that I received in Christmas of 1951. Left over stock I guess. It's long gone now - given away to a cousin in the early 60s who we never saw again.

In trying to recreate that set, I tried to learn what I could about the variations of that era.

Jim

Jim Policastro posted:

Keith,

No nickel rims - sintered iron wheels.

Jim

Thanks, Jim.

My Turbine is an interesting hybrid of a 671 and a 681, the result, I'm thinking, of someone replacing the shell of a 671 with a 681 shell (or possibly, the guts of a 681 with the guts of a 671). The drivers have nickel rims, which, I think, only appeared on the 671. When I bought the engine a number of years ago, it had a Lionel Atomic Motor (which sometime later I replaced with a Lionel Precision Motor). However, I don't think I've seen a reference to the 671 having a Lionel Atomic Motor (except for the 671R from the Electronic Control set). The tender is a 2671W Pennsylvania with, I think, silver lettering (although it's very hard for me to distinguish faded silver from faded white); that would fit with a 671.

What do you make of my Turbine?

Cheers!

Keith

The 671 and 2020 both had nickel rims. The shells are interchangeable on all turbines, including the 682 if the oiler linkages are removed.
Does your loco have an e-unit lever sticking out of the e-unit slot on top?

Continue this thread into other large tenders, or start a new thread?
Here is another table for review:

2046 (1950)        2046W Lionel Lines (small lettering) - silver
2046 (1951)        2046W Lionel Lines (large lettering) - white

Multiple engines - 2046W Lionel Lines (large lettering) - white
Multiple engines - 2046W-50 Pennsylvania - white

746(date)          746W Norfork and Western - long stripe
746(date)          746W Norfork and Western - short stripe

736 (date)         736W Pennsylvania - white
773(1964-65)    736W Pennsylvania - white
773 (1966)         773W New York Central - white*

I think this is a list of the rest of the tenders using the basic 2671W/2046W shells.

* - price guides say there is a variation with close spaced letters. We discussed this a while ago. Many of us came to the conclusion that the tenders with close spaced letters were done by MPC on leftover postwar blank shells.          

CharlieS posted:

The 671 and 2020 both had nickel rims. The shells are interchangeable on all turbines, including the 682 if the oiler linkages are removed.
Does your loco have an e-unit lever sticking out of the e-unit slot on top?

 

Yes, my Turbine has the e-unit lever sticking out of the top.

What about the "Atomic Motor" that was in my Turbine when I purchased it? Was the 671 ever produced with one?

Charlies, the only thing your list could expand on is some 685 and 665 small Hudsons used the 2046w (or rare 2046t) tenders, except the 1966 run of 665, which probably had the 736w tender.

As a side note, there was a rare 2671t tender without whistle for export , says the service manual.

CharlieS posted:

The 671 and 2020 both had nickel rims. The shells are interchangeable on all turbines, including the 682 if the oiler linkages are removed.
Does your loco have an e-unit lever sticking out of the e-unit slot on top?

 

Not ALL 671’s & 2020’s had nickel rims.  In 1946 & 47 all 8 drivers came with tires.  In 1948 only the front and back drivers had tires and in 1949 none of the drivers had tires.   

HTH,

Bill

Not ALL 671’s & 2020’s had nickel rims.  In 1946 & 47 all 8 drivers came with tires.  In 1948 only the front and back drivers had tires and in 1949 none of the drivers had tires.   

True. There are a number of variations on the 671/2020 drive wheels. Not just the tires.

On the other hand, I know of no variations on the wheels that were used on the 681 and 682.
The 682 has two special wheels on the front axle for the oiler linkages.

Chuck Sartor posted:

Charlies, the only thing your list could expand on is some 685 and 665 small Hudsons used the 2046w (or rare 2046t) tenders, except the 1966 run of 665, which probably had the 736w tender.

As a side note, there was a rare 2671t tender without whistle for export , says the service manual.

The service manual is correct.  I have a 2671T tender.  Stamped as such on the bottom of the frame.  The trucks lack roller pick up assemblies and a special part holds the water scoop in place.

The service manual is correct.  I have a 2671T tender.  Stamped as such on the bottom of the frame.  The trucks lack roller pick up assemblies and a special part holds the water scoop in place.


If you have a chance to take a look at the tender, and post information about the lettering, I can add it to the table:
Lionel Lines or Pennsylvania?
White or silver lettering
small (early) font or large (later) font.

Thanks!

You might want to check out www.tandem-associates.com

Go to the Lionel Postwar Identification Index on the left and then  scroll down to the locomotive icon and check out the locomotive numbers.

You will see variations,tender types, lettering fonts and shades,etc.

Good stuff.

Norm

Thanks.
Tandem associates provides a great resource.
But I am looking at information on tenders.
To get the information I am interested in gathering, one would have to look at each individual locomotive, and extract the tender information. I could do that by going though the various collector books too.
I think this way is a little more interesting.
Plus there still are a few bits of information here and there that isn't in the books.
And the books do contain errors.
(Tandem is very good about reviewing error reports and taking action when appropriate)