Problems re NY Central Legacy # 2231550

Arnold, have you confirmed the tether is indeed coming unplugged when it enters your curves?….if you reseat it, does it go again at least for a moment?..

Pat

I have one of these. Part of the problem with the tether is the fact that the female receptacle isn't deep enough.

When plugging it in , it's as though it's only in part way.

I suppose it's designed this way so it can disconnect easily to minimize damage to the wires considering there is nothing to grab onto to remove.

Mine would drop into conventional and I would lose the front coupler until the plug was fully seated. This engine is flip flopped from every other Lionel legacy/tmcc steamer produced. All of the electronic goodies are in the tender. Including the antenna.

I put my thumbs on the front side of the cab and use the nails on my middle fingers on either side of the back edge of the plug and give it a firm squeeze.

Also be sure you have the drawbar connected to the slot at the end of the drawbar. Otherwise the deck plate will bind on the front of the tender on tighter than o-48 curves.

Either way between the large tether and the deck plate imo o-31 is tight for this engine.

Lionel never mentioned such a complex tether when this switcher was announced. I was under the assumption it would be comparable to the b6.

It may have been better to give us an updated 0-8-0 if the boards could have been put in the engine where they belong.  Then it could have the traditional bullet proof Lionel i.r. drawbar.

Had I known sooner than a couple of weeks before delivery about the 20 pin tether,  I probably would have passed.

Those Russian decapods folks have on order use the same tether. There's sure to be more threads with issues

O.k. now a little lemonade.

On the bright side. These appear to have a better quality gearbox with a ball bearing worm and a larger horizontally mounted motor than one would expect. Maybe this is originally an Mth design?

Once the tether is secure. This 0-6-0 will run slower than just about anything else in O guage, so it certainly makes a good switcher.

IF and only IF this all falls on deaf ears at the ol’ L, ….and there’s more repeat offenders…..let’s see some pics of these offenders and design a fix …

@RickO out of curiosity, what curves are on your road?….and are you experiencing issues same as Arnold now?….is this tether system just pure junk?…

Pat

I purchased an Atlas 0-6-0 after a few years ago. I had read about the tether arrangement being a pain. I think it’s 16 pins. You plug the engine into the tender and they plug straight up into it. One on each side of the drawbar. So any strain is really on the wires not the plug. The fact that there are 2 tethers is what makes it a pain. Once they are attached I just leave them coupled even when moved off the layout.

Atlas may have been on to something with the 2 tethers. I don’t care how flexible the wires are. When you bundle 20 of them together there is bound to be some strain.

Truth be told. All my steam switchers. Never leave the yard. Which is mostly straight with numbered turnouts. But if you are going to make a nice small, scale engine loaded with feature and advertise it to work on smaller layouts. It should work without this issue. Automotive connectors just simply plug on. Everyone I have ever encountered requires some trick to get them released. They should have looked into that arrangement on a smaller scale.

I have some O-36 turnouts by the ice platform that won't be there on the next layout. .

After the second or 3rd time replugging the tether. I've had no operating issues on these tight turnouts.

I can't stress enough about the drawbar-deckplate arrangement. On the closer coupling slot. The deck plate can rest on the tender but turns need to be O48 or greater.

Less than O48 . You need to use the farther coupling slot/ end slot on the drawbar. However in this position it's better to let the deck plate hang below the tender floor. At this distance it only overlaps at the very edge and risks dropping and jamming against the tender.

If you look at the tender from the side there is a slot just below the tender floor where the deck plate has room to pivot back and forth.

Folks with 048 and greater curves can run the closer coupling with the deck plate on top of the tender , and should have much less risk for tether issues.

I'll see if I can add some photos later if I get a chance.

@Dave_C posted:

I purchased an Atlas 0-6-0 after a few years ago. I had read about the tether arrangement being a pain. I think it’s 16 pins. You plug the engine into the tender and they plug straight up into it. One on each side of the drawbar. So any strain is really on the wires not the plug. The fact that there are 2 tethers is what makes it a pain. Once they are attached I just leave them coupled even when moved off the layout.

Atlas may have been on to something with the 2 tethers. I don’t care how flexible the wires are. When you bundle 20 of them together there is bound to be some strain.

Truth be told. All my steam switchers. Never leave the yard. Which is mostly straight with numbered turnouts. But if you are going to make a nice small, scale engine loaded with feature and advertise it to work on smaller layouts. It should work without this issue. Automotive connectors just simply plug on. Everyone I have ever encountered requires some trick to get them released. They should have looked into that arrangement on a smaller scale.

Some sort of locking connector would be good, ….just not the VAG style, ( VW, Audi, Germany ) …..those have to be the fiercest connectors ever,….😉….

Pat

I believe that Lionel acquired the tooling for this engine from MTH. My MTH version with PS2 works fine, although I don't run it on anything less than O-54. The deficiency with the MTH version is that there are two pickup-rollers under the tender but none under the engine. Could an MTH drawbar be adapted for the mechanical connection? Might that improve things?

MELGAR

@MELGAR posted:

I believe that Lionel acquired the tooling for this engine from MTH. My MTH version with PS2 works fine, although I don't run it on anything less than O-54. The deficiency with the MTH version is that there are two pickup-rollers under the tender but none under the engine. Could an MTH drawbar be adapted for the mechanical connection? Might that improve things?

MELGAR

The PS2 drawbar only has 10 conductors. I believe Lionel’s has more than that. My PS2 version has had zero issues as well.

Pete

@RickO posted:

I have one of these. Part of the problem with the tether is the fact that the female receptacle isn't deep enough.

I put my thumbs on the front side of the cab and use the nails on my middle fingers on either side of the back edge of the plug and give it a firm squeeze.

Rick, you are the greatest!

It's early in the game, so I don't know if your above solution is a long term fix, but so far, so good.

Soon I shall post photos and videos of this wonderful locomotive with such a delicate and fragile tether arrangement which includes numerous very fine wires, tether plug with numerous pins and locomotive receptacle with numerous tiny sockets for the tether plug pins to be inserted in.

This tether arrangement is so delicate, I'm going to give this very cute little steam switcher a female name, to wit: Sally. I'm naming the locomotive after our now deceased family pet, Sally, who was  a very cute German Shepherd Beagle mix, who was a real B . . .!.

LOL, Arnold

Below are photos of Sally's tether arrangement. It's hard to see it well and if it continues to run well, I will never disconnect it.

Here is a video of Sally, notice the swinging bell:

My plan is to make Sally a yard goat, permanently ensconced in my yard with 4 sidings and a passing siding, rarely riding my main line rails.

She will get plenty of yard goat action, shuttling train cars between sidings and on to the passing siding and occasionally onto a main line.

Arnold

@Norton posted:

The PS2 drawbar only has 10 conductors. I believe Lionel’s has more than that. My PS2 version has had zero issues as well.

Pete

I was wondering whether having Lionel's multiple wires remain and be loosely fastened to the MTH drawbar.

MELGAR

Oops, here is a better video of Sally in action:

Arnold

And one more short video of Sally navigating 031 curves:

This locomotive has problems but IMO it's worth fighting for. Arnold

@Arnold D. Cribari posted:

Rick, you are the greatest!

It's early in the game, so I don't know if your above solution is a long term fix, but so far, so good.

LOL, Arnold

Greatest might be a bit of a stretch, LOL! I just try to help with whatever information I can ,just like alot of folks on the forum.

I've certainly gotten plenty of help from others here along the way. Glad I could help, and hope it continues to run well for you Arnold.

The only way mine will get disconnected, is if an asteroid hits the layout

One more thing. It might be better to have the deck plate ride in that narrow opening between the tender floor and the bottom of the tender shell. Seen just above the deck plate in your photo, but if your content and it ain't broke don't fix it.

If the problem is the deck-plate, it seems to me that it just could be shortened or slightly rounded at the corners to improve operation on smaller radii.

MELGAR

@MELGAR posted:

I was wondering whether having Lionel's multiple wires remain and be loosely fastened to the MTH drawbar.

MELGAR

I wonder if the above could be a long term solution to the problem. I, for one, would never attempt it, but believe repair experts could do it.

@MELGAR posted:

If the problem is the deck-plate, it seems to me that it just could be shortened or slightly rounded at the corners to improve operation on smaller radii.

MELGAR

Under warranty, Lionel extended the tether, which helped,but I still had the problem this morning.

@MELGAR posted:

I believe that Lionel acquired the tooling for this engine from MTH. My MTH version with PS2 works fine, although I don't run it on anything less than O-54. The deficiency with the MTH version is that there are two pickup-rollers under the tender but none under the engine. Could an MTH drawbar be adapted for the mechanical connection? Might that improve things?

MELGAR

Gorgeous locomotive and layout!

@Arnold D. Cribari posted:

Under warranty, Lionel extended the tether, which helped,but I still had the problem this morning.

It's this simple, plug in the tether completely. I don't know if you are worried of breaking it, lack of finger dexterity, whatever, but clearly this is simple problem of not plugging in the tether fully, and then your attempt to run it and it comes unplugged.

I own one of this series 2231530 Bethlehem Steel, and the local hobby shop also has one on the shelf. So yes, with first hand knowledge, this is a difficult engine to get right, it's a wide plug tether and not the best idea out of big "L", not the best locking or latching connector system, and yes, it takes some force to FULLY seat the tether into the back of the engine. If you fail to do that step- then you are going to have a problem with it unplugging.

So again, use some force, view the tether with a magnifier if you need to to see how far it has seated into the plug and when it finally stops moving in, but it must be all the way and that takes some force.

@Vernon Barry posted:

It's this simple, plug in the tether completely. I don't know if you are worried of breaking it, lack of finger dexterity, whatever, but clearly this is simple problem of not plugging in the tether fully, and then your attempt to run it and it comes unplugged.

I own one of this series 2231530 Bethlehem Steel, and the local hobby shop also has one on the shelf. So yes, with first hand knowledge, this is a difficult engine to get right, it's a wide plug tether and not the best idea out of big "L", not the best locking or latching connector system, and yes, it takes some force to FULLY seat the tether into the back of the engine. If you fail to do that step- then you are going to have a problem with it unplugging.

So again, use some force, view the tether with a magnifier if you need to to see how far it has seated into the plug and when it finally stops moving in, but it must be all the way and that takes some force.

Thanks so much, Vernon, your advice is extremely helpful.

I may have been too gentle with the tether arrangement because the approx. 20 very fine wires comprising the tether seemed delicate. Also, there is a thin flap of plastic attached to the back of the locomotive extending to the tender just short of touching it, that is as delicate as a butterfly wing. This plastic flap is only cosmetic, hiding the tether arrangement, and reducing the access of one's fingers to insert the tether plug into the receptacle.

As I may have mentioned before, once this tether plug is fully seated, and that may have now happened, my plan is to never inplug it and keep it on the layout at all times, either on a main line or siding. Arnold

Thank you all, my fine Forum friends, for all your helpful input regarding this issue. Arnold

I’m glad y’all got this straightened out ……..good call on Rick’s part, ……sounds like Arnold’s purchasing agent on his railroad lives to see another day on the job!…glad it’s not going to be a chronic issue …..

Pat

This is a follow up regarding the problem mentioned in my original Post and Rick's solution, which was to squeeze or press the tether plug fully into the back of the locomotive receptacle ("Rick's Squeeze").

I think this issue is of particular interest to those of you who have a background in engineering, especially mechanical engineering.

This tether arrangement is flawed. This morning the locomotive stalled running through the curved section of the 2nd 022 switch, after navigating the curved section of the 1st 022 switch without stalling.

Maybe the answer is Buyer Beware if you have 031 curves, even though Lionel says on the locomotive box that it runs through 031 curves. It's possible that there is no problem running through wider curves.

When the locomotive stalled, I gave the tether arrangement the Rick squeeze, and it ran well through 031 curves again.

I will continue running it and report back, but the tether arrangement fails to lock in place like it should.

I'm no engineer, but I think this is a design flaw.

As a result, I will only use this locomotive as a Yard Goat, only running it on the sections of my layout with the easiest access.

That ain't bad, but it also ain't great.

If this problem persists, I may put it in the hands of repair expert to come up with a good long term solution to this problem so I no longer need to give it the Rick Squeeze.

Arnold

Theres an off center alignment peg on top of the male plug. Tough to see, but to my eyes this peg prevents the plug from fully going into the socket, i.e. bottoming out on the locomotive.

There is a slot on the side of the female end where you can see a gap between the face of the male plug and the back of the socket. Again, I "suspect", the plug would be difficult to remove if fully seated all the way into the socket. There is nothing to grab onto to remove the plug, and of course pulling on the wires is a no,no.

Removing the peg may allow the plug to fit in flush and provide more reliable operation

How many wires are actually in the the tether? If ten or less it could likely be replaced with an MTH tether. Not a simple task but something a warranty voider might tackle.

Pete

@Norton posted:

How many wires are actually in the the tether? If ten or less it could likely be replaced with an MTH tether. Not a simple task but something a warranty voider might tackle.

Pete

Its a 20 wire tether Pete. Your far more knowledgeable than me, but I guess this is what happens when none of the Lionel command stuff will fit in the boiler , including the antenna. Then you add a swinging bell, and power pickup.

I'm surprised we haven't seen more issues with these, maybe in a year or two. If Lionel ever lists the tether on the parts site I'll be the first one to order. I suppose they could sell out for warranty before that ever happens.

Although not attractive looking with the large loop. The way MTH did it there was certainly a lot more wire showing allowing it to flex at the top  of the loop. Not so much at the socket.
This being a MTH based engine that had a deck plate with the newer wired drawbar. By keeping the deck plate to hide the tether and loading the engine with features. They really didn’t have much choice in how to run a tether. I’m wondering if you could enlarge the opening a bit for the socket and maybe hog out the mounting holes of the PCB Socket allowing it to move freely and follow the tether taking some of the strain off of it.

And here I thought it was all peaches & cream in Arnold’s little world,…..let’s see a better picture of the tether not plugged into the engine if we can …….

Pat

@Arnold D. Cribari this may not be an appealing solution but I bought a used Legacy b6 and that pesky tether would go out every third turn. I ended up buying some of the Loctite Ultra Gel control glue. I plugged my tether in and then very carefully added a dab of glue to fireman and engineer's side of the tether. I mean tiny dab. You can't even see it without a flashlight. That tether hasn't come apart since then and I've moved it off the track multiple times. It's a pain because you're stuck with an attached tender but it makes things able to run and it could be taken apart if you scraped the glue dab off with a flathead screwdriver or razor blade.

I haven't had to do this on my 0-6-0 yet but I also don't have any tight turns to run it on yet. It's destined to work a short stretch of track that will have tight turns though so maybe trouble is in my future.

@harmonyards posted:

And here I thought it was all peaches & cream in Arnold’s little world,…..let’s see a better picture of the tether not plugged into the engine if we can …….

Pat

Great idea Harmonyyards, but as long as Sally the Yard Goat (the name of my Legacy NY Central System 0-6-0) keeps running through my 031 curves, like it's done during the last few minutes, no way am I disconnecting the tether plug from the receptacle to take photos of same.

Last time it stalled, I gave it the Rick Squeeze, and it ran well through the 031 curves again.

As long as Sally the Yard Goat continues to be responsive to the Rick Squeeze, I ain't unplugging the tether arrangement. LOL, Arnold

@BillYo414 posted:

@Arnold D. Cribari this may not be an appealing solution but I bought a used Legacy b6 and that pesky tether would go out every third turn. I ended up buying some of the Loctite Ultra Gel control glue. I plugged my tether in and then very carefully added a dab of glue to fireman and engineer's side of the tether. I mean tiny dab. You can't even see it without a flashlight. That tether hasn't come apart since then and I've moved it off the track multiple times. It's a pain because you're stuck with an attached tender but it makes things able to run and it could be taken apart if you scraped the glue dab off with a flathead screwdriver or razor blade.

I haven't had to do this on my 0-6-0 yet but I also don't have any tight turns to run it on yet. It's destined to work a short stretch of track that will have tight turns though so maybe trouble is in my future.

Very interesting, Bill, but at this point I'm going with Yard Goat duty exclusively for a Sally with an occasional Rick Squeeze. Arnold

I have to agree with Rick about the deck plate. Arnold, from the looks of things you have the deck plate under the front lip of where the tender shell meets the chassis. I’m no expert but isn’t it supposed to be on top of that lip so “one could walk across from the cab to the tender”? If Lionel extended the tether you should have enough slack to not put so much tension on that 20 pin connector. However, it still is a tricky connection to make. Hope this helps.

Ezmike, you make an interesting observation about the delicate deck plate.

I don't think that deck plate is the cause of my problem, but the deck plate is arguably another slight design flaw. The flaw is that the deck plate might be better if it was slightly longer.

Take a look at this short video:

Underneath the tether, I have the drawbar in the slot farthest from the tender, where it should be so the locomotive and tender navigate my 031 curves. In that slot, the delicate deck plate does not quite reach the narrow platform in the front of the tender so the deck plate droops, but I don't believe the deck plate, which is attached to the locomotive, puts any pressure on the tether plug or locomotive receptacle.

I think the deck plate is entirely cosmetic. I could remove it, but don't because I like the fact that it hides the tether arrangement. Arnold

Geeeezzzz,……that is a dumb tether arrangement, …..I can see it in your video Arnold, …..I can see why it’s  flaky as puff pastry, …..not only is it ginormous wide, adding a strain, it also has to make a near 45 degree climb to get to the engine,…..so strain in two plains, …..nice!,……🤮

Pat

I want to be perfectly clear about my Sally the Yard Goat.

This is no put down of Lionel.

I love my Sally the Yard Goat, despite her flaws, and I'm glad she's mine, and grateful to Lionel for making her.

I felt the opposite yesterday, but thanks to the advice I got on this thread, particularly from Rick, I have had a complete change of heart.

Another thing: I like the fact that out of necessity, I plan on having Sally serve exclusively as a Yard Goat on my layout. I'm OK with that and, the more I think about it, the more I like the idea.

Maybe I'm a hopeless optimistic, better yet, a cock-eyed optimist (that expression is from the great musical, South Pacific, by Rogers & Hammerstein.

However, I can appreciate and empathize with others who would be upset with having a locomotive that's supposed to run well through 031 curves, but occasionally stalls when doing so.

Would I prefer Sally to be flawless like my other modern switchers? Absolutely!

Arnold

I wonder if Lionel tested it on Fastrack and your tubular track is a bit tight at points, causing the stalling?  Tubular track is much more subject to slight distortions of this sort, I'd think.  You could test this hypothesis by measuring the rail to rail outer rail distance of different sections of your track and seeing if there is variation in the width, and if the stalling occurs at these points.

@Landsteiner posted:

I wonder if Lionel tested it on Fastrack and your tubular track is a bit tight at points, causing the stalling?  Tubular track is much more subject to slight distortions of this sort, I'd think.  You could test this hypothesis by measuring the rail to rail outer rail distance of different sections of your track and seeing if there is variation in the width, and if the stalling occurs at these points.

Interesting, Landsteiner, I doubt if Lionel tested it on O31 Postwar tubular track curves like mine.

I have many modern Lionel and MTH locomotives that were advertised as good for 031 curves, and they have all run well on 031 curves  except for an MTH Susquehanna PS 2 or 3 diesel that is 18 inches long.  However, the problem with that diesel was derailments, not stalling, on the 031 curves.

So, I have never had this stalling problem before. Arnold

Arnold

I believe this connector or one very much like it is what is used here. They were designed for harness to board connections. They were not meant for connections that are subject to flex. There are no locking tabs, rather its just a friction fit. The width of the connector allows more leverage on each end to pull it out.

Pete