Protosound 1 problem

Joe & G,
Where can the list of engines be found?

quote:

Originally posted by Joe Allen:
G,
Just to let you know I have a 20-2121-1 Southern FM that wouldn't leave reset. Runs fine with another chip. I tried running it with a different chip and it ran.
I did a reset 18 and then replaced with the original and the same thing, no go.

I then tried the resets 3, 17, and 18 using a Z-4000 with the chip that will run it and it will not move with the original chip placed back in. It was worth a try. I got lucky with the others I guess, but I think this one needs a new replacement chip.........Joe

Joe, That is not a list engine, so it does sound like a bad chip. Did you remove the original chip and try that in another engine to see if the chip works in a different engine? I run into about 1 in 10 that the chip is bad.

Hugh, The list is floating around in a posting. MTH web site may have it also under service.

I have a printed copy if you need to check on an engine. G

Corrective Software for Engine I.D. Condition
(also referred to as a Deselect for "Original ProtoSound")
New software is available for the following MTH engines equipped with "Original
ProtoSounds" to eliminate the ID situation. This software will override the Deselect bit
and allow the engine to operate. However, other reset programming may also be
affected. Install the new EE PROM chip, then perform a Reset 18 to the factory default
settings. (This does NOT apply to engines equipped with ProtoSound2.0)

STEAM
RKDreyfuss Hudson NYC (30-1113-1)
RK L-3 Mohawk Texas & Pacific (30-1114-1)
RK K-4 PRR (30-1115-1)
RK H-8 Allegheny C&O (30-1116-1)
RK Torpedo PRR (30-1118-1)
RK GS-4 Southern Pacific Daylight (30-1119-1)
RK NYC Hudson w/FYS (30-1121-1)
RK 0-8-0 (with second run whistle) (30-1123-1, 30-1124-1))
RK Big Boy UP (30-1129-1)
Premier J1e Hudson, 20th Century Limited NYC (20-3020-1)
Premier Big Boy UP (20-3021-1)
Premier Shay WP&P (20-3023-1)

DIESEL
RKF-3 WP & FEC (30-2007-1, 30-2008-1)
RK SD-60/SD60M CSX & UP (30-2116-1, 30-2117-1)
RK F-3 Chessie from Construction set (30-2118-1, 30-4016-1)
RK Dash-8 NS & SF (30-2114-1, 30-2115-1)
Premier SD-70MAC BNSF & CN
Premier F-3 SF Chief, L&N, and SF El Capitan Set (20-2151-1, 20-2152-1, 20-2153-1)
Premier FP-45 Susquehanna, BN, SF, & EMD (20-2143-1, 20-2144-1, 20-2145-1, 20-2146-1)
Premier F40PH Amtrak, Mass Bay, Metra, CalTrain (20-2147-1, 20-2148-1, 20-2149-1, 20-2150-1)
Premier GP-20 ACL, BN, WP, EMD (20-2139-1, 20-214-1, 20-2141-1, 20-2142-1)

ELECTRIC
Premier GG-1 PRR w/PFA & Conrail w/FYS (20-5501-1, 20-5502-1)

TURBINE
RK Gas Turbine UP (30-2009-1)

If any of the above engines come in showing an ID condition, please request a EE
PROM with the new software and install the new chip in the engine top board.

G,
I tried the chip in another running engine and it won't leave reset either. I used the MAKE PS chip and it did nothing and I didn't think it would. Never hurts trying as you never know what to expect with PS1 it seems. I enjoy getting them running again though. This engine appears to have no run time and is like new.

Hugh,
I see Casey put up the suspect list of engines.

Guys,
Thank you very much and Casey for the list.
I have been out of touch on the PS1 stuff and was just wondering which of my 'shelf queens' might be effected. I have redone all my layout scenery and have not had a PS1 on the track for at least a year.
I do see a few of what I have could be effected
Can I guess that as long as I have a good charged battery before I power them up again that I won't get infected?

Hugh

Joe,
Take a look at my catenary system.
Hugh's Catenary System

quote:

Originally posted by Casey Jones2:

DIESEL
RKF-3 WP & FEC (30-2007-1, 30-2008-1)
RK SD-60/SD60M CSX & UP (30-2116-1, 30-2117-1)
RK Dash-8 NS & SF (30-2114-1, 30-2115-1)

Is this list complete? I thought that I remembered the Chessie Freight set had this chip also. Years ago I had one and had the problem and MTH put a new chip in.

Is that on the above list and I missed the designation, or were the clanks of death a problem other than the one discussed here?

Thanks for your time, Greg

Thanks to all you Guys for the info. I'm printing and punching holes and filing this in my 3 inch binder labeled, "Control Systems".

quote:

Originally posted by cngw:

quote:

Originally posted by Casey Jones2:

DIESEL
RKF-3 WP & FEC (30-2007-1, 30-2008-1)
RK SD-60/SD60M CSX & UP (30-2116-1, 30-2117-1)
RK Dash-8 NS & SF (30-2114-1, 30-2115-1)

Is this list complete? I thought that I remembered the Chessie Freight set had this chip also. Years ago I had one and had the problem and MTH put a new chip in.

Is that on the above list and I missed the designation, or were the clanks of death a problem other than the one discussed here?

You're right as I somehow missed that one!
RK F-3 Chessie from Construction set (30-2118-1, 30-4016-1)

Thanks for your time, Greg

quote:

I've known about the PS2 hard resets for a number of years where the board is shorted by jumping a couple of pins on the board, but I don't know how it's done. Only MTH techs have that information and MTH doesn't want everyone to know how to do it. I think it resets the mileage and hours went done.

Hmm..Now that is VERY interesting??!!

quote:

I do see a few of what I have could be effected
Can I guess that as long as I have a good charged battery before I power them up again that I won't get infected?

Hugh,
Good idea. I think the list is for the deselect problem only and your other PS1 engines might be susceptible to the 3 clangs of death or other scrambles.

Anyone using a battery should power up the engine and then cut off the track power to see if the engine makes sound for at least 8 to 10 seconds. If not wait for 30 seconds before applying power to the engine to charge it up or you can end up with an engine problem.

I use BCR's in all my PS1 engines to avoid the battery problem. No matter how long an engine sits, months or years, I just turn on the voltage to 12 volts for 1 minute and the engine is good to go. It's too bad these weren't available when PS1 first came out. I think it would have saved a lot of grief for early MTH owners.

Joe,
Thanks for the comment on the catenary.

I guess my question should have been, "What conditions cause the deselect problem"

I am familiar with the 3 clangs and have the chips to fix it.

Joe,
Although I have no P1 engines any more, you just stated the reason I originally started to use the BCR equipment, it was the ultimate fix for P1 engine problems. Now I have them in all my P2 engines, also.
PCRR/Dave

quote:

"What conditions cause the deselect problem"

Hugh,
According to MTH, a bug in the PS1 software deselects the locomotive when the battery becomes low resulting in an engine that starts up but fails to leave Reset. You can find this deselect information and the 3 clanks of death under
Proto-Sound 1 Software/Battery Issues.

Here's how to get there:

1. Go to the MTH website
2. Clink on the DCS symbol at the lower right corner
3. Clink on the (Legacy System) on left side
4. Clink on the (ProtoSound) on left side
5. Clink on the (ProtoSound) on left side again
6. Clink on (Proto-Sound I Software/Battery Issues)

quote:

Now I have them in all my P2 engines, also.

Dave,
I have some in my PS2 engines also. I'll believe eventually I'll replace all the batteries with BCR's. I should at least replace the 9 volt ones as they get a white corrosion on the battery clips if not replaced soon enough resulting in having to replace the clip.

The problem with the batteries are when running in command, it's easy to forget to check the battery by cutting off track power once in a while with the engine sounds running to see if the battery is still good.

The bug being a capability many of the QSI systems had as a capability. Were you could assign the engine an id number by repeated use of the horn button.

With an id set when you powered up an engine it would not leave reset or respond until it received its ID number via the horn button.

The glitch being that when the engine shutdown with a low battery a memory ID was set on the EEPROM(read write memory IC), but the software on MTH systems had no way to use it or clear it as long as the original EPROM (read only) is installed.

Dead battery is ok, because the watch dog circuit shuts the processor down preventing any corrupt data. The weak battery can cause the issue, above the watchdog threshold, but below the necessary voltage to accurately transfer data to and from the EEPROM.

Same reason you need to be careful with a BCR. Abort a start up with a BCR installed before it full charges and it can cause the same problems a weak battery causes. G

I wonder if anyone has had an issue with a scrambled chip using a BCR? I'm talking about PS1 engine that has been run successfully before it happening. I would think it could happen, but there is a much narrower window with a BCR to be in the voltage range for it happening as a BCR ramps up the charge so much faster than a battery.

quote:

Abort a start up with a BCR installed before it full charges and it can cause the same problems a weak battery causes.

G,
The way I understand it, it's only when you try to leave reset with a low battery that causes the chip scrambles. It usually happens when someone applies power to the engine and then instead of using the throttle handle to cut power to see if the engine sounds persist long enough, 8 to 10 seconds, they use the direction button and boom! It's the return of power to the board before it shuts completely down when the battery is low.

quote:

Originally posted by Joe Allen:
G,
The way I understand it, it's only when you try to leave reset with a low battery that causes the chip scrambles. It usually happens when someone applies power to the engine and then instead of using the throttle handle to cut power to see if the engine sounds persist long enough, 8 to 10 seconds, they use the direction button and boom! It's the return of power to the board before it shuts completely down when the battery is low.

I guess I have avoided this problem without realizing it by doing the following as a matter of procedure and circumstance.
1. I have always only use ordinary 9V batteries in my PS1 engines because they rarely lose voltage (go weak) when sitting on the shelf.
2. Not trusting the above statement, I ran a two prong connector like in the old cell phones out to the bottom of every engine so I could put my meter on it and check the battery after taking it off the shelf and before running it on the layout.
3. Since I run only all PS2 engines together in DCS with fixed track voltage OR ONLY all PS1 engines together with variable and a startup voltage of 12V and only with my handheld through the receiver on the Z4000, I don't think I duplicate the conditions to get into trouble.

quote:

Originally posted by Joe Allen:
I wonder if anyone has had an issue with a scrambled chip using a BCR? I'm talking about PS1 engine that has been run successfully before it happening. I would think it could happen, but there is a much narrower window with a BCR to be in the voltage range for it happening as a BCR ramps up the charge so much faster than a battery.

Joe,
I had one to fix, and I think Paul helped a fellow on the forum with a BCR fault also.

I also had one, where the BCR was removed because the engine wasn't working correctly with it.

I was told both power up and power down are suceptible to faults with a weak battery, because both states are transfering data. There are other conditions were leaving reset can cause the problem.

Having said all that, I have a MTH 1994 setup from another manufactures engine with a 2 meg chip. The engine runs but only on pure sinewave, and the negative lead from the battery was disconnected!

After resoldering the lead it still ran, but everytime you cycle the system to change direction the sounds go off, but the unit still reverse direction or goes to neutral (doesn't jump back to reset).

The MTH techs have seen similiar weird stuff with the early units. In fact some had a battery on off switch, or would run without battery. G

Hi

As I am finally setting up my layout, and going through my trains, I just realized I have a PS1 engine. I have been reading all of the horror stories. I'm not quite up to the point of running any trains yet, just working through wiring DCS.

The engine is a 30-2009 LP UP Gas Turbine, I think cataloged in 2007. I am not sure if has ever been run.

I know not to try to run without at least replacing the battery.

Does anyone have any other tips of what I should do before I give this engine a go?

Thanks,
Jeff

Just put in a new fully charged battery and you will be fine.

G,
I had a PS1 engine that wouldn't work with a BCR, but it the charging system on the board that was at fault. I just replaced the bottom board and all was good.

I also have an engine from 94 that has the on and off switch for the battery. These were made to run without a battery if you wanted it to. Just leave the switch in the off position and it will run without sounds. When using the battery, you had to turn off the switch or the battery would run down. Using a BCR, that's not necessary, as the BCR will run down anyway in a few hours.

quote:

The engine is a 30-2009 LP UP Gas Turbine, I think cataloged in 2007.

Jeff,
This engine was actually cataloged in 1997. PS2 came in late 2000 and that was the last of PS1.

Sorry, I meant 1997, typo.

quote:

I guess I have avoided this problem without realizing it by doing the following as a matter of procedure and circumstance.
1. I have always only use ordinary 9V batteries in my PS1 engines because they rarely lose voltage (go weak) when sitting on the shelf.

All the best,
Hugh

Not a good Idea. I did this and the battery overcharged or something. Battery swelled and busted. It took out a couple components on the PS1 board with it.
I took the engine along to MTH Tech class and was fortunate enough to be able to repair it. I carry the battery in my tool box to show others.
Forest

quote:

Originally posted by Casey Jones2:

quote:

Originally posted by cngw:

quote:

Originally posted by Casey Jones2:

DIESEL
RKF-3 WP & FEC (30-2007-1, 30-2008-1)
RK SD-60/SD60M CSX & UP (30-2116-1, 30-2117-1)
RK Dash-8 NS & SF (30-2114-1, 30-2115-1)

Is this list complete? I thought that I remembered the Chessie Freight set had this chip also. Years ago I had one and had the problem and MTH put a new chip in.

Is that on the above list and I missed the designation, or were the clanks of death a problem other than the one discussed here?

You're right as I somehow missed that one! RK F-3 Chessie from Construction set (30-2118-1, 30-4016-1)

Thanks for your time, Greg

=====================================================
Casey,,,,,,,,,interestingly enough..................

Wednesday, I took that engine down and put it on the track for 5 hours to charge it. It worked fine right after....but the next day:

When I power it down after initial start up to get into forward, it went forward. Then, when I powered down for reverse, there is a "ticking" sound that follows while I envision the battery dying. Sing this: de-dede,de de, de-det-det-de, deeeeee, deeeee dee and that is what it sounds like with it getting slower at the end. That is what the dying battery sings through the system

Bring power back up and let it charge for a min or so, same thing. I assume the battery is holding just enough charge for initial movement and that takes whatever "juice" it had out of it, not leaving enough for it to retain settings for another move.

If I power up right away, it starts all over and a power interruption will see it go in reverse. All told, time for a battery I assume. Glad they put in a newer chip for me.

Greg

quote:

Originally posted by Forest:

quote:

I guess I have avoided this problem without realizing it by doing the following as a matter of procedure and circumstance.
1. I have always only use ordinary 9V batteries in my PS1 engines because they rarely lose voltage (go weak) when sitting on the shelf.

All the best,
Hugh

Not a good Idea. I did this and the battery overcharged or something. Battery swelled and busted. It took out a couple components on the PS1 board with it.
I took the engine along to MTH Tech class and was fortunate enough to be able to repair it. I carry the battery in my tool box to show others.
Forest

Forest, you are right as behind every reward is a risk. I believe the biggest part of this risk is 'heavy' usage where the charging circuit is overdriving the standards battery OR having it sit in a charge position for a long time. I think neither is my usage case and that my ability to check battery each time I use it even further minimizes the risk.
Most of all, I do not want to dump another $10-20 for a rechargeable battery into these ever diminishing PS1 (poor initial) investments.
Look at Marty's sell off of beautiful PS1 stuff for nothing!

If you have a Proto engine that has a dead MTH battery from sitting on the shelf can it be safely brought back to life by turning the transformer up to 10v and letting it charge for say 1/2 hour before trying to make it move?  Or is it best to take it apart and put in a fully charged battery.

What I'm trying to understand is why a "totally dead BCR" would be different from a "totally dead rechargable battery", assuming what I'm reading above about replacing it with a BCR is correct ...?

Kerrigan;

The big difference here is how long it takes to charge a BCR VS a rechargeable battery.

A regular NiCad battery is generally a 10 hour charge from flat to full.

You can fast charge them (1 hr, or even 10 minutes)  but it shortens the life significantly. The faster the charge the greater the damage.

I have a couple PS1 Galloping Goose engines.

I periodically leave them on the track for hours, they never give me trouble.

One of them has had the battery replaced last year, the other is still fine with it's original battery.

The problem is that the NICAD battery has a "memory effect" or cell reversal.. The chip scrambles when the battery voltage drops off a cliff from the 9 volts to about 5 volts when running,not completely dead. This is when the chip scrambles. A capacitor or NIMH battery for that matter does not have this problem. So chip scrambling is largely eliminated if the Nicad is not used. A stored NICAD can develop negative voltage when it discharges. In storage this can damage the boards as well as leakage. I had 2 such incidences where I had bad boards and negative voltage batteries. 

 

The condition of the NICAD battery can not effectively be tested unless it is out of the engine. The test described in the MTH manual  or a simple volt meter test is insufficient to evaluate the condition. It has to be tested under load. 

 

Nicad batteries and the problems associated with them are discussed here. Using them was a poor choice right from the beginning. See cell reversal and memory effect

 

 

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel-cadmium_battery

 

Dale H

Sounds like the real solution to avoid the "off the cliff" problem is to install the BCR and be done with it.  I have about 6 new MTH batteries, 2-3 years old, that I've never installed or charged.  Would they still be any good?

Maybe. You do not know how long they were sitting around before you bought them,they could have been made 6 years ago,who knows?. To test,first measure voltage to see if it is not negative. If it is 0 or above, charge fully with an appropriate external charger. Install a volt meter,check voltage,should read around 8.4 then put under load. (connect to a 12 volt bulb or string of bulbs for example) Check voltage to see if it drops fast or decreases in a slower linear fashion. If the latter happens,the battery is good,at least for now but it can develop the memory effect depending on how it is used and how you run your trains. A bad battery can ruin your charging system so do not charge it in the engine unless you know it is good. Lots of people replace batteries too late,when the charging system has already been damaged due to a bad battery with reversed cells,then mistakingly blame a replacement BCR for the damage. Charging the BCR does strain the system but only very briefly,during the initial charge.

 

Also to protect your PC boards when running,make sure you have at least one TVS installed in each loop.

 

Dale H

Thanks for the info Dale.  The TVS would be some sort of surge superssor?  Isn't there a small vendor who makes something like that?  Somewhere in the fog of memory that sounds familar.

Takes out voltage spikes generated off the transformer secondary. Shown here about 60 cents each from Mouser.com

 

http://www.jcstudiosinc.com/BlogShowThread?id=486&categoryId=426

 

Dale H

I just bought a scale NYC Hudson 20-3020-1 that will power up with the 2 dings and then goes silent. Raising the throttle up and down does nothing, so trying reset 18 was out of the question. And it dings once on shut down. I switched chips with a PS1 Coal Turbine and both engines will run fine with the wrong sounds.

 

I tried the resets 3, 17, & 18 with the turbine chip in the Hudson, but when I replaced the original chip in the Hudson, it still did the same thing.I tried the resets twice to make sure.

 

I could just switch the top boards to have both run, but I wonder if there is another way to make the Hudson work with it's original board. Would the dealer reset chips correct the problem?

OK. I have a RK Dreyfuss Hudson. On the list.

What do I do?  

I just ran it last week. I think this is the one where everything works except sounds in forward. Worked on a few PS-1 engines last week.

Joe,  This is the classic ID issue.  The chip has to be a QSI chip that was compatible with MTH.  I have one and it can reset those memory spots.  Same for you Jim, or you have MTH make a new chip which will over ride the ID memory issue that keeps it from responding after start up

GGG,

 

E-mail sent

Ok guys I am having issues, I have a 4-8-4 FEF northern steamer, The Union Pacific item number 30-1151-1. I received the 3 clanks of death, I put in a new battery same issue. I ordered the reset chip, installed it exactly as the old one was in. I powered it up, got a very very quiet 2 clanks, pulled out the reset chip put in the old chip, and all of the sudden had NO sounds, no movements, nothing. Tried the reset chip again, still no sounds no movement nothing. Tried Brand new batteries placed them on recharger first, still nothing. When I power up my engine, all I get are the headlight and smoke. Thats it. I hear the e unit click when I try to cycle the directions, and I also get that sound when you power the unit off after about 5 seconds which i guess easiest for me to describe sounds like a fart. I cant get any of the reset steps to work as I have no sounds, no bells, whistles, clanks, clinks, nothing. Am I pretty much screwed now? Is there a way to make the engine move and smoke but have no sounds? I am hoping I still can save my engine. I have tried everything I know, including calling MTH service and cant seam to get anything fixed. Can someone PLEASE help me. Thanks

Dumb question folks...are you guys running with regular transformers or DCS conventional control?

My 2 proto1s have BCRs and as I recall when I run them in DCS conventional mode I only get 5v minimum and advacning the thumbwheel to higher than 10-12v gets the engine moving...need to play again tomorrow to confirm that.

How, in that situation, do I get the engine to sit for 1min at over 12v, without moving, to charge the BCR?