Ps1 to TMCC w/Cruise

I have had several requests for keeping the PS/1 sounds with a TMCC upgrade.  Of course, I'd want cruise in such a product.  There are still a lot of PS/1 locomotives crying to be converted to TMCC.  Many would like to keep the usually excellent PS/1 sounds as the available sound sets are limited with the ERR sound boards.

Of course, price is a major determining factor, if the boards were more too expensive, it's going to limit the market.  Given the price of the competition, ERR, you could target $100-120 for a retail price for the board.  You might be able to aim a bit higher as you're keeping the sound from the PS/1, but there's a point of pain where it'll limit sales.

Another issue is how seamlessly it's integrated with the PS/1 sound board operation.

How about proto 2? If so, I would take 4.

PS/2 ain't gonna' get combined with TMCC.   If you have PS/2, you already have command with cruise and sound.

I have 2 PS-1's at my son's house that could use an update if it's plug & play.

I understood that ERR had such a board, for approx. $25

Rex, no such thing at ERR.

I have done one conversion so far, with an Equalizer board, and although I've heard that it had back EMF, it's the cruise that I want!

Original conversion:

https://youtu.be/xCwTAoi3TbQ

"Upgraded" QSI sound:

https://youtu.be/RnkQEV-Hlvk

I think Rex may be refering to the Sound Convertor. No idea if it could be used to trigger PS1 sounds. If it could it might obviate the need for a new board though.

Pete

I would be interested in 4 or 5 boards.

FP45 Metra

#80 Coal Turbine

DM&IR Yellowstone

#61 Veranda

If its realy true plug and play. Count me in for some. 

Nothing is easy.  The guys that will tell you something is easy are the guys who have never done the job.   If you need help, listen to the guy that has been there and done that.

Norton posted:

I think Rex may be refering to the Sound Convertor. No idea if it could be used to trigger PS1 sounds. If it could it might obviate the need for a new board though.

Pete

The sound converter passes the AC voltage through and imparts the positive or negative DC offset for whistle or bell.  Since the full voltage comes through, any diesel would be a max RPM all the time, and any steamer would be chuffing like it's hi-balling.  I have a couple of them I used just for the whistle/bell and one I'm modifying to add whistle smoke to an engine, but I don't think you'd be happy with it for PS/1 sounds.

Another issue is you still need the command board, the Sound Converter, and the rather large PS/1 board stack.  It gets pretty big...

a board that converts PS-1 to TMCC is a dream......I would be in for......many!

I didn't realize it passes AC through. I assumed it just took serial data for the audio and converted it to DC offsets. Thanks, you saved me a few bucks.

Pete

Pete, it's designed to power the conventional sound board so you can use the whistle and bell function.  It would have had to have more logic and power handling to vary the AC amplitude of the output so that part of the sound would work.  It doesn't have that.

If you look in the TMCC/Legacy Reference Materials Link, I posted the schematic and the code for the Sound Converter, it's near the end of the thread right now.

I would be in for at least 4.

Rolland

I'd take several also.  Would really like to have TMCC in my early PS stuff.....

I'd be in for two.

CentralFan1976 posted:

I have done one conversion so far, with an Equalizer board, and although I've heard that it had back EMF, it's the cruise that I want!

Mario, back-EMF is a method of implementing cruise, that's what the ERR Cruise Commander uses, and that works very well.  You don't need a tach reader on the flywheel to do cruise control.

Seems funny, when 2 companies were in business selling this product they went out of business, now we have demand for it again!  I have to believe the market is just too small, with specific engines that have to retain the PS-1 specific sounds.  Maybe some PCC or the turbines.  Or folks really like the PSA sounds that MTH provides and TMCC/Legacy does not.   G

Yup, a PCC, EP-5, and Doodlebug are my PS-1 locomotives that I want to keep sounds on (Yes, ERR has a GG1/EP-5 sound board, but the PS-1 EP-5 does not sound like a GG1 at all.  It has a very wonderful unique horn that I will not change out, even for curse and command.).  All others I could live with the ERR (Or Lionel) sound sets of.  But if such a board does come out, with cruse as a must, then my other 6 locomotives would also get said boards.

This idea, for PS1 engines has me intrigued.  Could the folks that are familiar with the PS1 electronics help me to better understand how they function?  

Is the idea here to install ERR electronics for the motors, lights, smoke, etc, then to design a board as a go-between to operate the original PS1 sound board? If so, what sort of "data" does that sound board need?  Is it looking for simple track voltage level for engine RPM/chuff rate, braking sounds and such, then a DC offset for whistle/horn and bell?  

JGL

Sound Converter

Overview:
The Sound Converter allows you to use your conventional sound board with a new TMCC installation, with some limitations. To install, wire the Sound Converter to the sound output of your AC/DC or Cruise board. Then, wire your conventional sound board to the sound converter. Everything needed to install the board is included with purchase.

Cool Features:
    Simple installation and operation
    Operates your conventional sound from your TMCC upgrade
    Dimensions: 1.5L x 1.0"W x 0.8"H

NOTE: Diesel Ramping may not be supported.

From Ken at ERR:

Any sound board that attaches directly to track power and uses the DC offsets from your transformer buttons.

Rex, did you read what I posted previously about the Sound Converter board?  I guess not...

I have some of these in captivity, I'm well aware of what they can and cannot do, and this is a job they can not do satisfactorily.

Guns & GGG,

   Interesting thread, having Guns upgrade my Tin Plate 249 to ERR makes me wonder why somebody would want a P1 engine up graded to TMCC rather than P2, why mix the electronics of 2 different companies in your engine?

PCRR/Dave

Dave, it's all about wanting to keep the PS/1 sounds.  For some units, they did have very good sounds, and many were more specific to the actual type of engine.

JohnGaltLine posted:

This idea, for PS1 engines has me intrigued.  Could the folks that are familiar with the PS1 electronics help me to better understand how they function?  

Is the idea here to install ERR electronics for the motors, lights, smoke, etc, then to design a board as a go-between to operate the original PS1 sound board? If so, what sort of "data" does that sound board need?  Is it looking for simple track voltage level for engine RPM/chuff rate, braking sounds and such, then a DC offset for whistle/horn and bell?  

JGL

I can't help with how exactly PS1 functions, but the Equalizer board has been discussed quite a bit in prior years in . Someone posted a link to the instructions for the Digital Dynamics Equalizer board. May help you a bit, maybe someone can post a schematic of the equalizer board if it's available?

I don't think there's a schematic available for most of the boards for model trains, those are pretty scarce.

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

Guns & GGG,

   Interesting thread, having Guns upgrade my Tin Plate 249 to ERR makes me wonder why somebody would want a P1 engine up graded to TMCC rather than P2, why mix the electronics of 2 different companies in your engine?

PCRR/Dave

Personally, it's a choice of having a single control system.  I'm just not interested in DCS. 

CF76,

   I can understand that, if you don't have or want DCS, that makes more sense. Remember you maybe able to use ERR instead of the regular TMCC, Lionel owns them both, and ERR is almost identical to TMCC and maybe a cheaper way to up grade. IMO however you are missing the big advantage of running both DCS & Legacy, it's fantastic having both RC set ups.

PCRR/Dave

My lack of MTH familiarity and knowledge is significant, so I hope someone could answer this:  I have one of the early B&O RDC sets, #30-2144-1, with "Protosounds."  (I presume that means PS-1?) The sounds are great, especially the station stop announcements which can be triggered by the reversing button.  Can TMCC with cruise be added to this unit with the sounds preserved?

Thanks for any advice.

Bill, that's the $64,000 question.  It remains to be seen how complete a link between the board and the TMCC functionality can be achieved.

I am glad to have gotten into the Forum and saw this topic.  This is a question I have been inquiring about for years to varied individuals/techs.  I did learn of the possibility of the plug in to the Equalizer board a couple months ago.  I have installed one, 6 years ago, but they are no longer available.  I have upgraded many PS1 engines with ERR, both steam and diesel.  I am happy with the sounds in them from ERR, but they are more common Big Boy, F3s, FEF, etc. and have more generic sounds.  However, I have five PS1 turbines and the DD40X I wish to retain the proto-sounds as they are.  I have wondered why, when Lionel had their early sounds provided by the same type of chip that PS1/QSI sounds were using, how difficult would it be to provide an "interface" to keep proto-sounds with TMCC control.  As with many others, I wish to use only one system, TMCC, and wish to retain the unique sound functions of specific engine types.  In my case, this would be great, specific sounds of the various turbines I have, not to mention the PSA functions.  Also, the costs and complexity of changing to PS2 is another reason, for myself, to remain with TMCC as my one operating system.  I run my PS2 and PS3 engines with this and with no difficulty, at least to the point of I am satisfied with the results.

Again, very glad to hear of this, hope it comes to a rewarding fruition.

Jesse   TCA  

Pardon me if I get the topic off track (see what I did there? ), but that sound converter board looks like something that would work best for me, who has a lot of steam and diesel engines with RailSounds 1.0 and just needs the whistle and bell buttons to work. Does the chuffing/diesel rev get impaired still if it uses the magnet under the wheels to vary the chuff/rev rate?

It should work for you if the chuff is using a magnet or hall-effect sensor and feeding directly into the sound board.  That's really the target market for this board.

This was already done years ago.  Train America Studios had the UCUB and Digital Dynamics had the Equalizer board.  I have a UCUB board and it works very well.  If someone would want to do this again I'm sure that both would need redesigned as individual parts would need to be changed, but with enough time and money anything can be done.  Who's willing to lay out the money upfront?

Gene Anstine

Gene, I think most here are aware of the previous products.  However, none of them are currently available.  Another point is nowadays with the dirty cheap and easy to use microprocessor products, it may be easier and cheaper to build an effective interface between the PS/1 board and the new command board. 

Which I have proposed to several people as I don't have the EE knowledge to do so, but since none of them shared the passion I have for trains, they didn't want to take on the side project as they didn't think it would be profitable.

A number of years ago I had my Premier PS1 engines converted to TMCC and EOB.  I have never looked back.

Norm