PW Sets

I personally wouldn't consider it a true "set" unless it was in the original set box. Otherwise, it's a "set" in that they all were sold together, but no evidence exists of anything beyond that

A yep.

Richie

Hi, Bruce;

In my personal opinion, for most cases, it really doesn't matter. A lot of "sets" were sold or made up just by taking individual boxes off the shelf and slappin' 'em together to match what was in a catalog. This happened more frequently on the types of sets that (most) of us kids in the 40's & 50's were likely to receive - 2037-type locos, 600-series switchers, some alco diesels, etc.

The higher tiered items generally did come packed in a set box, but if you'll notice, those who kept the set box generally command much higher resale prices today. Most did not keep the set box, so who's going to know the difference whether you assembled your own or bought all together as a complete set?

[edit:]  Whatever puts a smile on your face. That's the most important part.

I don't think I'd pay a premium for either, with that being said. I like the idea they may have been sold together in 1955, but if I can collect all the items and buy them for $600, I won't pay $1,000 just because they're already together in one sale, if that makes sense.

So boxes would have to included to be considered a set and it doesn't matter if they were sold together as dealers made up sets themselves, am I getting this right?

671/681,

You're almost there. You'll need a copy of Greenberg's Postwar Lionel Cataloged Sets to see the correct set. When the larger sellers exchanged cars in sets they created variations. Most all of the accepted variations have been documented. In almost all cases one would need the original set box to determine value.

I don't think you need to have the set box in order for a group of trains to be a "set".

I do think the pieces have to match in condition and all be the proper variation.

Such a "set" would not be worth a premium over the value of the individual pieces, as a "boxed set" would be. But this isn't about money, is it?

By the way, I have seen plenty of "boxed sets" that were put together by people without regard to the pieces being in matching condition, or correct variations.

It depends on the definition of a "set" I think. If you're selling them together, in order to be something special it would need the set box, otherwise it's a bunch of stuff that could conceivably been sold together.

Here is a 1946 2114 WS set that I put together years ago...

Not a boxed set but these are the components that made up the 2114WS cataloged

set. The locomotive was purchased first then the three 2625 Irvington Madison cars later...all in VG condition.

I have my original set from 58 (New Haven F3 freight set) and purchased a set from 51 (Union Pacific freight set). I have received or purchased parts of other sets that I am in the process of restoring/or have restored by adding the appropriate car(s). I would love to have set boxes, but it's OK by me not to.

Peter

In my opinion, don't get overly hung up on "original sets" and all the other hype attributed to collecting.  Buy what you like, run them if you like, and enjoy what you have.  You will have much fun with your toys that way, and you probably will not become a rivet counter.

Bob S.

Thanks for all the opinions, I don't plan on selling any of my stuff, thats for my kids to do when I depart.  I thought it was interesting that I had enough rolling stock that I could recreate a number of sets I saw in my research. I have been running them that way for a couple days now and think its cool. 

 I have seen hundreds of "custom sets" assembled in 2 stores. I've seen cars swapped in or out by request, or damage necessity. From a point of sale view, there is no way any book could cover this. But I still consider it a set. Just not a "factory set".

 Many in store buyers would demand a sealed box be inspected. It was a consumer that had the power back then Lots of boxes with one extra tape strip right. Sears here even had some Lionel tape, and a Lionel supplied repairman sometimes.

 So a point of sale variation can exist, but without dated, listed items, or photo of say that Christmas or birthday, or a run on a layout soon after, its just a nice "custom set" to me, not a point of sale variation. No proof of originality for me, no extra bucks for you.

 Factory sets and their variations are the "confirmed" collectibles in my eyes. But its next to impossible to confirm 100% the originality of sets unless never opened. So listed cars being replaced with a duplicate, not a big deal.

 I think set variations also occurred at the factories unrecorded.

It all comes down to the personal documentation in hand on those to.

 I.E. I take it all with salt. Is it worth it toMe!

My wife and I collect amongst other items, post war sets.  We have on display over 50 sets.  Only a few of them have the set box.  We did a lot of research on the correct items in each set.  For example, there are shinny knuckle pins and dark pins, short smoke stacks on cabooses, etc.  One must make sure that the correct car has the right type of stack/knuckle pin for it to be correct for the year the set was produced.  Some cars were produced over many years but a cosmetic changes over those years.  We consider them as correct sets even though they were not purchased as a set or have the set box.  We have done our homework to make sure each item is correct for the year the set was issued.  It was a lot of work but very educational and fun!!

Paul Edgar

I

quote:

It depends on the definition of a "set" I think. If you're selling them together, in order to be something special it would need the set box, otherwise it's a bunch of stuff that could conceivably been sold together.

Did you find an officially sanctioned definition of what "set" means? I am not aware of one. It is common to see the expression "boxed set" so it follows that there must be unboxed sets too.

I think we are probably in agreement that a set without a box isn't worth any more than the value of its individual pieces. That does not necessarily mean its any less interesting to own.
As far as boxed sets go: there an active empty box market, and so many people are putting together boxed sets, that they are of no interest to me unless the set came out of a private (non-train person, original owner) home.

Getting all the pieces that came as a set is desirable I see nothing wrong with putting a set together. Providing they are the correct ones, everything came from the same assembly line.

quote:

For example, there are shinny knuckle pins and dark pins

LOL, not only that, but there are truss head pins and round head pins in the black finish. I don't recall where the round head pins were used.
If you want to go to the nth degree, there were different clinching methods done on the bottom of the rivet.

Here are my 5 sets.......the steam set is an u catalogued set from Abraham & Strauss. The last set needs a black/red LV 44-toner.

Peter

I see absolutely no problem with an individual assembling his or her own informal set without the original set box or component boxes for that matter.  I have done it several times and I certainly consider them to be legitimate sets.  Nevertheless, for whatever its worth I think its still a thrill to acquire a complete post-war or pre-war original set with all of its component boxes and set box.   I only have a couple and even though they are certainly not big ticket sets they are still special to me.

CW,

You my friend, are so very correct. Your joking about something that changed often. In the prewar period it seems as if it changed by the day of the week and the mood of the employee. LOL!!

I know what i have found out over the years, people want the boxes for sets or accessories so much that most of the time they will pay MORE FOR THE BOXES THEN THE TRAINS SETS OR ACCESSORIES THEMSELVES!

Don't make sense but that's how it goes. I've seen a bascule bridge box go for over 200.00 where you could buy a good working bascule bridge for $100.00 to $175.00 or so!

Alan

quote:

Don't make sense but that's how it goes.

It happens because collecting can be about rarity / how difficult an item is to find.
This is not limited to trains. It can happen in all sorts of collectables.

Boxes / packaging for the most part was not meant to be durable.
So boxes can be highly desirable.

The same thing happened to me. A friend came over to see my trains and noticed I had enough PW items to make a few sets. Long story short,after much research over a long week-end we ended up with over 50 "sets" with all the correct variations in couplers, graphics and trucks, etc. Since then, it helped me focus my collecting/searches to only those items I need to complete certain "sets". More fun and mostly less money (except for a solid shield Rutland 6464). Only problem is,  how many "common" cabooses do you need in your collection?

Brad,

Now the real fun begins. I found the search for the individual boxes and then the set boxes exciting. The most frustrating searches were for the individual and set instructions. The mentioned searches are most often the most expensive.