Question for Rich

Since Rich will be the Engineer, I doubt he will have much control of what the Fireman is doing. That said, considering the grade (1.7%?) and the heavy trailing load, there is now way NKP 765 will make THAT grade with a "nice clean stack"! 

If I was the Fireman, I would be trying to duplicate Wes Camp's performance on the 759, back in the 1970s. I would be "over-firing" in order to lift at lest one safety, and maybe two of the three safety valves. The exhaust would be heavy, dark color, but not necessarily sooty. One heck of a lot of cinders expelled, however! 

Right on, Jack.

765 will be pushed to 100% of her capacity and then some on this climb. Steve Winicker will be firing, and he will have to "crowd the fire" a little to make steam against a full throttle, long cutoff and sustained maximum power. There will be some smoke, but not the thick roiling black cloud that you sometimes see at a photo charter runby. A fireman can actually smother the fire by delivering that much coal to the fire.

And yes, Steve is shooting to have two pops lifted at the apex of the curve, just like Wes did with the 759 back in 1973.

Rich,

You guys planning to do a full top-off of water/coal in Altoona?  You're going to be going through a pretty decent amount of coal and water on that climb if you're going to attempt it without using the diesel.  That tends to suggest either a longer service stop in Altoona than the recent shoot rods and fill as much water as can be done in that time, or using the diesel more on the rest of the trip to conserve what is left...unless there is a secondary water stop planned somewhere.

Kevin

I don't think many people really desire the "burning of Rome" smoke cloud.  Some railroads overdo it though, either intentionally or unintentionally.

Having done a fair amount of photo charters, most people want some smoke to show forward motion (and the engine working).  When you do photo charters in the cool air, you get all that white steam, and most people are happy with that.

The "problem" becomes when the weather warms up and that steam dissappears.  The only option left is overfiring the engine to get something visible for the photographers.  Depending on the quality of coal (this is a big one), the skill of the fireman, and other factors, sometimes you end up with more coal up the stack than actually providing usable energy to move the locomotive.  This is where the aforementioned Burning of Rome comes into play.

Of course, judging by this post on trainorders this morning, http://www.trainorders.com/dis.../read.php?10,2846246, maybe there is a 3rd option that we are not aware of.

Kevin

On that Trainorders post the OP said, "...Instead of using regular black coal, they were using white coal to get the white smoke. ..."  White coal for white smoke...what a concept! I sure hope he was kidding.

Personally I HATE making a lot of smoke. Just ask our firemen...I'm on them all the time about keeping a clean stack.

Since steam was gone from main line service when I was born, I have always wanted to see steam operate as steam operated back in it's time.  I have a lot of modern day videos but the bulk of what I have is vintage films and such, why?  So I can see steam operated the way it was operated in day to day service, see how the engines looked in day to day service and so on.  Show me the smoke.....but make it at the time when it should be there, not when the camera says it should be.  Again just MHO. 

I have heard it said on documentaries that engine crews where scolded for a "dirty" stack as that meant wasted fuel and therefore wasted money, kind of like pilots spending several thousand dollars in fuel to make a go around.

I agree with Chris, I want to see them operated as they where, that is living history not fantasy.

I hear you HW...it is a business.  Especially the photo charters...they definetly must get what they want when they are paying.  I will say however some of the cleanest running I have ever seen was with the 4449 in 09' on it's way up to Michigan and back...I think in that entire DVD set there are only a handful of shots where there is some smoke...(other than the run bys at T-fest) otherwise it was a very clean stack.  When she past through my neck of the woods on the way to Michigan there was just the slightest haze of smoke. 

Regarding the 844 I have that DVD...I highly recommend it to those who do not.  HW you were firing that trip right?  Definetly an awesome sight, some wheel slippage and she dug right back in....fantastic footage.   

Yes. She slipped on the track/flange greaser. That was why the videographer, Steve Watros, was set up right there!

I have seen too where a shovel full of sand was allowed to be drawn into the firebox, slowly, just with the draft, in order to "clean out" the soot. Is that done with oil and coal fired engines or just coal? When that happens there does seam to be a big "puff" of smoke as all the crap comes out at once.

First, it is NOT a "shovel full" of sand, it is only a vegetable size scoop, and the sand is allowed to be sucked into the "peep hole" (about 3 or 4 inches in diameter) in order to clean out unburned "globs" of oil. Sometimes  3 or 4 scoops are necessary to clean out the tubes/flues. The Engineer watches the stack, and when the stack goes reasonably clear, he taps the Fireman on the back, which indicates that no more sand is needed.

Second, "sanding the tubes" is ONLY done on oil burning steam locomotives since there is no natural abrasive action as there is in coal burning steam locomotives.

I never would have thought that oil wouldn't have fully burned in that kind of environment. How do you know when you need to do that?

"Personally I HATE making a lot of smoke. Just ask our firemen...I'm on them all the time about keeping a clean stack."

It's true! Although I think I'm getting a lot better.......

So what is the positive or negative of the black smoke unless what I thinking is just like a house chimney you want avoid build up of residue or the amount of cinders. That could cause a fire or get into passengers face?  I feel so naive about these massive machines that I obsess over .

Generally you have to sand the tubes after lengthy stops such as displays, or lengthy down hill drifting were the tubes may get sooted up. 

Oil soot is a terrible conductor of heat. Back in the day, firemen were instructed to sand the flues anytime the engine was "smoked" (black smoke pouring from the stack), on the way from the roundhouse to the train, or when standing around the terminal.  Running with a clear stack, a light sanding every 50 miles or so was considered appropriate.

I sand when I feel I have a nice, heavy (and clean) fire, but still have trouble making steam. After a good sanding, I can usually see my pressure start rising.

Actually, in one of those "to protect the innocent" stories, I do know of one crew who did sand the flues of a coal burner.    Not sure if I ever mentioned it here, so here it goes....

Apparently, the engine was steaming very poorly that day, and the crew tried everything they could think of to fix the problem, but nothing seemed to work.  Then, someone suggested sanding the flues.  No one could think of any "problems" that would result from that, so that's what they did.  The way it was described to me was they decided VERY quickly that this may not have been such a good idea.  They got this burning of Rome incident with cinders going everywhere as the crew ducked for cover.  Oh, it didn't fix the problem either.  Whatever the issue was got fixed that night, and they never tried sanding the flues of a coal burner again.

I wouldn't be surprised if some other crew tried it at some point with similar results, but my guess is that most unorthodox treatments to a problem have been tried at least once somewhere.

Kevin

The small caveat that I will say is that a great majority of vintage films were shot right at the end where the railroads had already decided that steam was on the way out.  With it only being a matter of time before they were retired, cleaning the engines was the first thing to go.

For example, there are a bunch of videos on the Norfolk & Western taken in the 1957-59 timeframe, and a lot of the engines are dirty and unkept.  There are also a few films taken in the 1954-55 timeframe, when N&W was still fully committed to steam, and the engines look well maintained.

The videos are useful, but you have to take into consideration when they were shot.

Kevin

I do. 

There is no "positive" about making a lot of smoke. Black smoke is unburned carbon...fuel that went into the firebox and out the stack without doing any work at all. Back in the day wasting fuel was BIG no-no.

When a fireman is making smoke on a coal-fired locomotive, he is putting coal on the fire faster than it is being burned. If he does that too long, the fire gets too thick. A thick coal fire is a problem for the fireman because ash starts to build UNDER the fire. There is so much coal on top of the fire that the fly ash cannot escape out the stack with the draft, so it just sits there in the firebed making the thickening fire even worse. If the coal has a low fusion temperature, clinkers will form in the ash as it melts in the heat of the too-thick fire.

With a thick fire it becomes difficult to control the temperature of the firebox and as a result, the steam pressure. The response to the fireman's efforts gets sluggish and the steam pressure does not respond properly to his efforts. Eventually the fire will get so thick that a high firebox temperature cannot be maintained because it is choking off too much air, and steam pressure falls.

All things considered, there are a LOT of reasons not to make smoke.

Rich,

Thank you.  One question, is the ash pan a source of air for the firebox?  So if the fire gets too thick and the ash is heavy in the pan does it prevent O2 from getting in to feed the fire?

The more I learn, the more respect I have

Tim,

I have learned in my business career, and steam locomotive career, that one goes through three stages:

First, one knows nothing.

Second, one has learned just enough, that they THINK they know everything!

Third, one has learned SO MUCH, that they finally realize how little they REALLY KNOW.

I always tried to teach the folks who worked for me, to spend as short a time as possible in stage two.

What about those who have "forgotten more than you will ever know",wher do they fit in?

Not many of them alive, but those that are, I still learn from!

#2 is across many industries and life in general, the saying I like is that "you know just enough to be dangerous"