Question on Classification Lights in the 1980's

@Ron045 posted:

I have read that the lead loco will have green class lights if a regular and on the time table.

No. Green class lights ALWAYS indicated that a second section of that train will be following (generally speaking primarily for passenger train service).

If an "extra" train not on the time table the class lights would be white.

Correct.

I have questions on where and when the lights would be off or red on a typical freight train in the U.S. during the 1970's and 1980's.

First, the would NEVER be red class lights displayed facing forward. Since "red" indicated the rear of a train or locomotive, the red class lights would ONLY be displayed towards the rear.

Now, by the mid to late 1970s, most, if not all, railroads stopped using class lights anyway, and during the 1980s, many railroads began removing the whole class light assemblies, so they would not have to maintain them.

See picture with questions.

Thanks!

Ron

Referring to your drawing:

1) For freight service, there would be no green class lights, only "white" or "off".

2) On other units in an MU consist ALL other intermediate class lights would be off.

3) The rear unit of an MU consist, would not have any class lights illuminated if coupled to a train. If no train, the the rear class lights would be red.

Just to clarify, Classification Lights are used only when the method of operation is Timetable and Train Orders.  As far as I know, the last use of this operation method was in the 1980's.  In that method of operation, trains were operated by Right, Class, and Direction.  Train Orders granted Right.  The timetable granted Class and Direction.  Timetable authority for a train to occupy the main track at a particular station was granted by the times published for Regular Trains in the timetable.  A Regular Train is a train which is authorized by a timetable schedule.

So . . . A regular train operating on its timetable schedule would normally not display classification flags or lights.  (It does not matter whether the train is a passenger train or a freight train.)  

If the Dispatching Office had another following train to run, the following train could be operated as an Extra Train (without a schedule, displaying white flags or lights, and authorized only by Train Order).  Or . . . the train could be run as a section of a Regular Train.  If that option was used, the first section of the Regular Train (as well as any following sections if there were more than one following section) would display green flags or lights, and the last section would display no flags or classification lights.  Following sections of a train would be authorized by the Timetable schedule for that train, but would obviously run late on the schedule, as the first scection would be prohibited by rules from departing earlier than its published time at any station.  Only the first section could be "on time".

Any trains which were inferior to the train being run in sections would have to remain clear of the main track until the marker (a red flag or red marker lights) of the last section had passed.  In other words, the train had not passed, for operational purposes, until all sections had passed.

I added some emphasis, because there are a number of rules that interlink with each other in Timetable and Train Order operation, and only in that method.  CTC and Track Warrant Control do not allow Regular Trains, and thus there is no need for trains to be displaying flags or classification lights in CTC or TWC territory.

Ron, this is a long answer to a short question, but classification flags and lights are not a stand-alone topic.  They're a part of an entire method of authorizing trains to occupy a main track.

Regular Train (N0. 7, for example), no sections:

• No flags or class lights on front, red marker to the rear

Two sections of Regular Train (First No. 7 and Second No. 7):

1. First No. 7, green flags or class lights on front, red marker on the rear car of the train.
2. Second No. 7, no flags or class lights on front, red marker on the rear car of the train.

Three sections of Regular Train (First No. 7, Second No. 7, Third No.7)

1. First No. 7, green flags or class lights on front, red marker on the rear car of the train.
2. Second No. 7, green flags or class lights on front, red marker to the rear.
3. Third No.7, no flags or class lights on front, red marker to the rear.
4. A Train, for operational purposes, could be a light engine. Cars are optional. If running as a light engine a train would display flags or lights as above, but the rear of the locomotive or the locomotive consist if applicable, would display red class lights to the rear, acting as a marker. That’s the only time class lights could be illuminated on other than the front locomotive.

Thank you Hot Water and Tom for your detailed responses.

I have some models that have red lights and some that have green.  So I wanted to ask the questions to fully understand.

I'm restoring an SD-40 and wanted to get the lights right.  Looks like I need Red, Green and White LED bulb for each socket.   I've seen RGB, but not RGW.

Vr.

Ron

I wonder if people today could go back to time table and train order railroading.  I wonder if people have the focus and discipline today for that to happen6

@Dominic Mazoch posted:

I wonder if people today could go back to time table and train order railroading.

What "people"? They are all gone and PTC does everything.

I wonder if people have the focus and discipline today for that to happen6

No, because those few "people" remaining no longer know how to railroad.

@Ron045 posted:

I have some models that have red lights and some that have green.  So I wanted to ask the questions to fully understand.

Several of my hood type units display green class lights in the direction of movement and red to the rear, as do my two MTH multiple unit cab and booster consists.  I just ignore it and enjoy running the trains.

No Green in my  opinion in the 70s or 80s.   As mentioned that was only to indicate section following for SCHEDULED trains.     I don't think you need TT&TO to use class lights.    the Broadway Limited and 20TH Century for example, often ran with more than one section in the mid 1900s, and the PRR and NYC mains were block control not TT&TO by then.

You only need white if  using TT&TO and running extra, NOT on the schedule.

You seem to need red to rear running light.   

For the 70s and 80s don't overcomplicate things.     Maybe some reserach on the RRs that you have models of would tell you how they did it then.

@Hot Water posted:

"People" as living today. If railroading went back to TT and TO, most people today, even after being taught by good instructors, would never be able to understand or use it.

My proof:  How peoe today act and drive. 

I do have my concerns about PTC.