Real Train Consists

turtle7 posted:

I think that I am not finding the correct answer(s) to a question I have on the web-so I am asking my fellow train enthusiasts. And perhaps an example would best describe my question-so for example,  a manufacturer of logging equipment ( log skidders for example) is located in an area of Pennsylvania "serviced" by the PRR-and the company has two skidders, each requiring a flat car, scheduled to go to a logging site in northern Vermont. The most logical train route would by via the PRR to a connection with the NH railroad-and then on to Boston to the B&M which would take them to their final destination. Now my question-would it be more likely that the entire trip would be on the two PRR flatcars-

Yes.

or would the skidders be transferred to NH flats and then to B&M cars for their final journey?

No.

I am trying to make up some Maine railroad consists and am wondering whether I would be more prototypical in using cars form the local RR or from different roads-for these type of situations. Thanks in advance-turtle7

Probably even a good possibility that the PRR would have sent ANY two available flatcars for loading, whether PRR or not (unless they were pretty one-way about such things).  Regardless, once loaded, the two flatcars would have made the entire trip to their destination, being handed off from one railroad to the next as the trip required.

Turtle7 - you may find this information interesting.  Credit to Bob Bartizek:

When building freight consists for your favorite road, it is fun to know what the mix of cars would have been in a particular train. This information is highly era-dependent, and I’m most familiar with the 1930’s to 1950’s. If your interests lie in modern railroading, you’ll need to rely on someone else.

Overall, the US freight car fleet in 1948 had the following percentages:

36% Boxcars (mostly single-door 40-foot)

31% Hopper Cars

8% Tank Cars

7% Refrigerator Cars

7% Gondolas

3% Stock Cars

3% Flat Cars

3% Automobile Boxcars (mostly double-door 50-foot)

1% Covered Hoppers

1% Other

Some large adjustments must be made for different regions of the country. For example, most of the hoppers were on eastern lines like the PRR, N&W, VGN, B&O, C&O, LV, etc. Western roads had only about 10% of the hoppers during this railroading era. Let’s ignore seasonal shipments such as fruit, vegetables, and cattle and focus on typical railroad consists.

Now, what road names do you include in your consist? How many “home road” cars should there be? It depends a lot on the railroad. I have some information listed below from 1944 that details the percentages of the home road and other road cars that were mixed in with the following railroads.

Erie, Wabash, CNJ, ACL, Southern, Rock Island, SP, and MoPac ran a mix of 25-30% home and 70-75% others.

D&H, B&O, IC, C&NW, CB&Q, and UP ran a mix of 35-40% home and 60-65% others.

PRR, Milwaukee Road, GN, NP, ATSF, and D&RGW ran a mix of 45-55% home and 45-55% others.

The champion is N&W, which ran 78% of its home road equipment. The runners up in second and third place are C&O and L&N with 68 and 66% home road freight cars respectively. At the other end of the spectrum are NKP and B&M with 16 and 17% home road cars. Boston & Albany came in last with only 5 percent (although technically NYC cars should probably also be counted as home road).

About three-fourths of the “other” cars should be from roads that interchanged with your railroad. The right regional mix of cars can really make your train look realistic.

If you primarily model one railroad, like I do with PRR, then freight car purchases can be made with the above data in mind. You can limit what you buy to the cars that will “fit” your region of the country and the time frame for the railroad (my railroad is circa 1953). You can buy less and yet have more fun.

Oh, by the way, in the steam era the Pennsylvania Railroad owned about 30% of the entire nationwide interchange fleet, so you cannot possibly go wrong with having some Pennsy on your roster (a shameless plug). B&O and C&O owned about another 35% of the nationwide interchange fleet, so they were widespread as well.

Now, just how long should that consist be? If there are grades on your railroad then the answer is, “Shorter than you think!” The C&O had to negotiate Cheviot Hill outside Cincinnati, which was at a 1.9-% grade westbound. C&O K-1, K-2, and K-3 Mikado’s, which were some of the heaviest 2-8-2s ever built, could each pull only 11 loaded 50-ton hoppers (these are the short 2-bay hoppers like those made by Weaver) up the grade. This required 50-car hopper trains to have five 2-8-2s, one or two on the lead, one or two cut in the middle, and two trailing pushers. These were not the only locomotives that labored as they pulled the steep grades common to the C&O railroad. Their mighty H6 2-6-6-2 articulated locomotives were only capable of pulling 16 to 17 loaded hoppers up the 2.5% grades common in the coal country of West Virginia. If you have 2% or 3% grades on your layout, then trains should not be very long unless they have multiple engines.

For diesel fans, most first-generation diesel units like the FT, F-3, FA, and RS-3, could only handle about two-thirds of the load of a typical 2-8-2 steamer. The FT diesels used by the Santa-Fe were rated at one loaded car per axle when traversing the Cajon Pass grade. This loading factor limited a FT ABBA set to hauling only 16-cars up its grade. Both steam and diesel motive power could handle about 3 or 4 times as many cars on level terrain as they could on a 2% grade.

If you are interested in replicating a prototypical consist on your layout, fewer cars in the train and less variety in road names can both be very realistic.

 -Greg

Look up "Railroad car interchange" and "Per diem."

Hotwater, Paul, Greg, Palallin  Thanks for the replies!  I am first and always a PRR fan-especially their electrics and early diesels. That interest has broadened into other Pennsylvania/NJ lines like the EL, LV, Reading, Susquehanna, etc. Next, an interest in the steel mill and mining lines-even some Arizona mining lines and a few coal mining lines like the Peabody. I spent part of my early life in northern Maine-hence an interest in the B&A, MEC and B&M. The B&A crossed the east branch of the Penobscott river just above my home and I distinctly remember those consists being either strings on maine potatoe box cars or pulp wood cars on their way to the paper mills in Millinockett. I also know that some of them brought lots of heating oil in tank cars from the northern ports-there was no natural gas lines in that neck of the woods. So it was for those three Maine lines that I was wanting to know more about-especially for the later 1940s to the early 1960s. Once again-thanks.  P Hering

palallin posted:

Look up "Railroad car interchange" and "Per diem."

Ah, yeah. It also might be a good idea to get in the car and go to a couple of real RR yards in your area. It amazes me how many on these Forums never seem to want to just go look at the real thing. Buy a rail fan mag like Trains. After all, that's where the real fascination is. In fact, the real thing is the only reason the fake thing exists.

If a car is loaded in Miami FL with  shipment destined for Vancouver BC, it never leaves that car unless there is an accident, mechanical problem, or the like. That's the way N. American RR's work. 99% of them connected, for approaching 200 years.

I'd thought I'd resurrect this thread because I stumbled across a prototype example that illustrates well how far afield freight cars can go.

The Warsaw Branch of the Missouri Pacific ran 42 miles south from Sedalia, Mo. to the city of Warsaw on the Osage River; there it ended, because the little line never made enough money to justify the bridge which southward expansion would require. It was abandoned in 1946. The line, which is an interesting story in itself, is detailed in Kenneth L. Bird, Rails to the Osage (2009). Some conductors' time books for the branch survive, and Mr. Bird reproduces some of their contents in his book. Here, then, are five trains from the 30s and 40s, when the depression, and the opening of a parallel U.S. Highway, made for short consists indeed. Each of them, between an ancient ten-wheeler on one end, and a Lucius Beebe-worthy wooden combine on the other, cradled boxcars from a variety of foreign roads - some quite far-flung - all bound down a rickety dead-end branch in western Missouri.

July 7, 1936, southbound: St. Louis Southwestern (Cotton Belt) #37728, Grand Trunk #583267. Northbound: Rock Island #158343.

Sept 9, 1936, SB: Texas & New Orleans #36115, Rock Island #153836. NB: none.

May 22, 1937, SB: Delaware, Lackawana & Western #40076, Pennsylvania, #53929. NB: reefer, American Refrigerator Transit #15191.

Feb 28, 1941, NB: Missouri Pacific #46658, New York Central #131758. SB: Delaware & Hudson #17174.

April, 19, 1941: SB: Missouri Pacific #46439, Pennsylvania #51944. NB: train returned to Sedalia because of a washout.

Commodities shipped north to the mainline connection at Sedalia were above all livestock (though no stock cars were in the trains described above), followed by grain, railroad ties, lumber, dressed meats and hides, gravel, and in the earlier days, zinc and lead ore. Typical southbound loads were coal, gasoline, animal feed, foodstuffs, automobiles, and furniture.

True to Bob Bartizek's observations above, Missouri Pacific cars are a small minority. Deep in MoPac country, only two of the thirteen cars listed belong to the home road.

I was a clerk with the UP in Kansas City in the early 1970s and there were many RR serving KC.  We received cars from the Wabash/NW and Frisco/MKT and sent cars to them. We also sent our west coast traffic to North Plate, the UP main line.   We never sent anything to the ATSF, Rock Island or Burlington.  I don't recall if we sent anything to the KCS  or any of the other roads serving KC. 

What this means to me is certain railroads had links to other roads.